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It comes from afar, and is an ever-ongoing discussion. I would recommend reading [1] if you are really interested. If you are but no so much, the last paragraph

It comes from afar, and is an ever-ongoing discussion. I would recommend reading [1] if you are really interested. If you are but no so much, the last paragraph is revealing: "If we seek guidance from the past, it is better to see the 'idea of the university' not as a fixed set of characteristics, but as a set of tensions, permanently present, but resolved differently according to time and place. Tensions between teaching and research, and between autonomy and accountability, most obviously. [...] between the transmission of established knowledge, and the search for original truth; between the inevitable connection of universities with the state and the centres of economic and social power, and the need to maintain critical distance; between reproducing the existing occupational structure, and renewing it from below by promoting social mobility; between serving the economy, and providing a space free from immediate utilitarian pressures; between teaching as the encouragement of open and critical attitudes, and society's expectation that universities will impart qualifications and skills. To come down too heavily on one side of these balances will usually mean that the aims of the university are being simplified and distorted." [1] http://www.historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/the-idea-of-a-university-today http://www.historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/the-ide...

scarface74 8y ago
I don’t have a problem in theory, but with the median household income in the US being $60K a year[1] how many families can afford to invest in college for any other reason besides trying to give thier children a better opportunity? [1] https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-average-income-in-usa-family-household-history-3306189 https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-average-income-in-usa-fam...
- sitkack 8y ago
  College should be a right, not an investment. http://www.internationale-studierende.de/en/prepare_your_studies/financing/cost_of_education/ http://www.internationale-studierende.de/en/prepare_your_stu...
  - scarface74 8y ago
    What should happen and what does happen is completely different. In the US, if you are spending 10s of thousands of dollars on an education and where the only real way for most people to have upward social mobility is a college education thst gives them practical skills, you need to be able to hit the ground running. If college doesn’t give you real world skills and companies won’t train employees (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2014/09/05/what-employers-really-want-workers-they-dont-have-to-train/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2014/09...) where does that leave a college graduate?
    - sitkack 8y ago
      I don't know how to respond to this. Companies are being more aggressive in off-loading their costs onto the workers. And given the consolidation in tech, the employers have even more power to dictate the terms. We are seeing similar behavior with unpaid internships. I have experience with FANG companies and most employees have huge gaps in social,life,cultural and historial experiences. When it comes to a Liberal Education, they skipped leg day. Are you saying that new grads need to understand packer, docker, 3-way git merges and react?
      - scarface74 8y ago
        What I’m saying is quite simple - understand the world or at least the U.S. for what it is and act accordingly. There is no loyalty from any company. The days where there was an understood social contract between corporate America where they would take you in a train you and where you could work your way up the ranks and stay there for years is long gone. Corporate America is only interested in “increasing shareholder value”. Since corporate America has no loyalty to you and will not train you - it’s your responsibility to train yourself and be ready to either jump ship for a better opportunity at the first chance you get or be ready to swim to the next opportunity when corporate America throws you off the boat. The reality is that whether you believe that a college education is “a right” and that people shouldn’t have to go into tens of thousands of debt for a chance at a better life, American society disagrees. If you are investing tens of thousands of dollars for college, your reward can’t be just “being a better member of society”, it has to be - can I get a job to provide my own income, health care, retirement etc and have enough saved to provide my own safety net. A liberal education if you are a software developer won’t help you achieve those goals. Why is it so crazy that a college should teach you how to use source control? No matter what type of software development you are doing, you’re going to need it. What’s wrong with teaching you whichever is the most popular marketable front end MVC framework during your senior year so you can be productive on a job that’s not going to train you? True you have to be a life long learner but six months after you graduate from college you’re going to have to start paying that student loan back and the way the government is trying to overturn the ACA, you’re not going to be able to stay on mommy and daddy’s health insurance after you get out of college - if they even have health insurance.

scarface74 8y ago

I don’t have a problem in theory, but with the median household income in the US being $60K a year[1] how many families can afford to invest in college for any other reason besides trying to give thier children a better opportunity? [1] https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-average-income-in-usa-family-household-history-3306189 https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-average-income-in-usa-fam...

sitkack 8y ago
College should be a right, not an investment. http://www.internationale-studierende.de/en/prepare_your_studies/financing/cost_of_education/ http://www.internationale-studierende.de/en/prepare_your_stu...
- scarface74 8y ago
  What should happen and what does happen is completely different. In the US, if you are spending 10s of thousands of dollars on an education and where the only real way for most people to have upward social mobility is a college education thst gives them practical skills, you need to be able to hit the ground running. If college doesn’t give you real world skills and companies won’t train employees (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2014/09/05/what-employers-really-want-workers-they-dont-have-to-train/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2014/09...) where does that leave a college graduate?
  - sitkack 8y ago
    I don't know how to respond to this. Companies are being more aggressive in off-loading their costs onto the workers. And given the consolidation in tech, the employers have even more power to dictate the terms. We are seeing similar behavior with unpaid internships. I have experience with FANG companies and most employees have huge gaps in social,life,cultural and historial experiences. When it comes to a Liberal Education, they skipped leg day. Are you saying that new grads need to understand packer, docker, 3-way git merges and react?
    - scarface74 8y ago
      What I’m saying is quite simple - understand the world or at least the U.S. for what it is and act accordingly. There is no loyalty from any company. The days where there was an understood social contract between corporate America where they would take you in a train you and where you could work your way up the ranks and stay there for years is long gone. Corporate America is only interested in “increasing shareholder value”. Since corporate America has no loyalty to you and will not train you - it’s your responsibility to train yourself and be ready to either jump ship for a better opportunity at the first chance you get or be ready to swim to the next opportunity when corporate America throws you off the boat. The reality is that whether you believe that a college education is “a right” and that people shouldn’t have to go into tens of thousands of debt for a chance at a better life, American society disagrees. If you are investing tens of thousands of dollars for college, your reward can’t be just “being a better member of society”, it has to be - can I get a job to provide my own income, health care, retirement etc and have enough saved to provide my own safety net. A liberal education if you are a software developer won’t help you achieve those goals. Why is it so crazy that a college should teach you how to use source control? No matter what type of software development you are doing, you’re going to need it. What’s wrong with teaching you whichever is the most popular marketable front end MVC framework during your senior year so you can be productive on a job that’s not going to train you? True you have to be a life long learner but six months after you graduate from college you’re going to have to start paying that student loan back and the way the government is trying to overturn the ACA, you’re not going to be able to stay on mommy and daddy’s health insurance after you get out of college - if they even have health insurance.