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Patreon Is Suspending Adult Content Creators Because of Its Payment Partners

306 points by cribbles 8y ago

eurg 8y ago
This kind of outcry happens again and again, but nothing ever happens, because it's a niche problem. Some time ago it was fetlife: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/03/payment-processors-are-still-policing-your-sex-life https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/03/payment-processors-are... And maybe of interest: When the EU brought out GDPR, so many people complained about the injustice of one group of governments bringing their laws to the world. For the rest of the world, this is nothing new: The dominance of the US finance sector means that any US law is automatically international law. Visa follows US laws, nobody can exist without taking Visa payments, so everybody follows Visa rules, which means you follow US rules. In the end, what is allowed is the intersection of behavior that's not penalized in any state of the world.
- bb88 8y ago
  > ... what is allowed is the intersection of behavior that's not penalized in any state of the world. In a weird way, I think China does this right. Winnie the Pooh is no longer allowed in China [1]. So they turn it off at the firewall. This is better than say, trying to force all the other companies in the world to comply with some stupid law that China makes up. While I disagree with China on their use of the firewall to block speech, it's a far better way to do it than to sue Disney to prevent Winnie the Pooh products from coming over into China. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-china-blog-40627855 https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-china-blog-40627855
  - repsilat 8y ago
    Look at what China is doing to airlines -- "Say Taiwan is a part of China or we won't let you operate here." They have essentially the same policy as everyone else -- we'll force you to follow our laws, and if we can't we'll shut you out. Blocking the Winnie the Pooh content is no different. If China made up a large part of the audience of those sites, they would "have to" change. Ditto GDPR -- you can just ignore it and block Europe if you want, they're not forcing you to do anything.
    - bb88 8y ago
      Edited to Add: The last time I checked, the US believes that Taiwan is part of China. [1] China has the stupid laws here. Instead of forcing them onto the rest of the world, they prevent the content from coming into their state. Likewise GDPR is a "stupid" law, so it's the EU's job to prevent non GDPR sites from coming into Europe, and not Facebook's responsiblity for complying with a stupid law. https://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35855.htm https://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35855.htm
      - jakelazaroff 8y ago
        > it's the EU's job to prevent non GDPR sites from coming into Europe, and not Facebook's responsiblity for complying with a stupid law. As the grandparent said, it's not e.g. Facebook's responsibility to comply with the GDPR unless they want to do business in the EU.
        throwaway11222 8y ago
        To be fair, this article says otherwise: https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbestechcouncil/2017/12/04/yes-the-gdpr-will-affect-your-u-s-based-business/#19ee758f6ff2 https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbestechcouncil/2017/12/04/ye...
        guitarbill 8y ago
        That article doesn't really say that: > The organization would have to target a data subject in an EU country. Generic marketing doesn’t count. [...] However, any U.S. company that has identified a market in an EU country and has localized Web content should review their Web operations. (It's actually a decent article that captures the nuances of GDPR well.)
  - Rapzid 8y ago
    Until they can't and become bullies like with Taiwan. I'm actually pretty appalled how easily people point to one or two benefits to the way China handles something while completely ignoring the concessions as evidence of them "doing it right". Never mind these short term benefits are coming at the cost of policies that are an affront to liberty and the modern concept of democracy. So, I'm going to offer a counter opinion; I do not believe China does this "right". Dumb lawsuits are dumb, but I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bath water.
- zeth___ 8y ago
  >In the end, what is allowed is the intersection of behavior that's not penalized in any state of the world. That is hardly true. We do not follow the rules of Saudi Arabia and Iran. What happens is that the laws of the US and the intersection of local laws are what needs to be followed. The US is aghast that the EU is a large enough market to actually impact the rules of the global internet, and the laws are different enough that they will hurt the major US players. Now all of a sudden people are seeing why applying national laws to pure cyberspace is a bad idea. I'm moving into using tor because it feels more like the internet I knew from 1998-2006, slow-ish, unreliable, unpolished, anonymous, ephemeral and private, with all the warts there to see. In short a new network that takes A Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace seriously.
- tedunangst 8y ago
  And yet I'm constantly told that European banks make it trivial to transfer money without middlemen like visa. So why not just submit payment that way?
  - dasil003 8y ago
    It's only trivial within each country, not across borders.
    - pas 8y ago
      No, it's pretty trivial for SEPA countries. https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/retpaym/paymint/sepa/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/retpaym/paymint/sepa/html/ind... Do you know of any problem? Instant clearing/settlement is in TARGET2 which is the ECB's vision for 2020.
      - iMerNibor 8y ago
        Stupid high fees from uk banks, for example (we're talking a flat ~15€ per transaction)
        nissehulth 8y ago
        For SEPA transfers? Are you sure you're not mixing it up with SWIFT transfers?
        def_true_false 8y ago
        Like with anything else, you just need to use a provider that doesn't suck.
    - jacquesm 8y ago
      That was true up to 1/1/2018. Now the transfers take a couple of minutes in most cases. The frustrating thing is that it is now quicker for me to move money between say ABN-Amro in NL and some Polish or Romanian bank than it is to transfer between ABN-Amro in NL and a RABO or ING account in NL.
- randaouser 8y ago
  check out spankchain: https://spankchain.com/ https://spankchain.com/ -high speed -prevents this nonsense
  - Drdrdrq 8y ago
    Payment for adult content is where Ethereum and similar cryptocurrencies would solve a real problem. Of course tokens (like SpankChain) are not really needed for a solution, one could use ETH directly. The anonymity of transactions could be problematic though...
    - jMyles 8y ago
      SpankChain is a very sensible layer on top of Ethereum, allowing workers to bring their reputation and fanbase with them across services and avoid lock-in. This is exactly the kind of thing that makes sense to build on top of Ethereum.
      - Drdrdrq 8y ago
        I wish them luck and hope they solve payment processing problems for adult performers once and for all. That said, the only point of a separate token I see is getting them money so they can actually implement the system. From end users' point of view it would be easier if ETH was used directly imho.
        jMyles 8y ago
        Well, if the client is the "end user", then sure. But consider the benefits that the worker gets.
- technion 8y ago
  Fetlife is also the canonical demonstration that cryptocurrencies don't solve these problems. They tried accepting BTC. Noone used it, even while they were struggling with Visa. They pulled the support citing lack of use.
  - wishinghand 8y ago
    Don't they only accept actual money now, via ACH or debit card payments?
  - gizmo686 8y ago
    This isn't true anymore. I just logged on to check, and they support payment by: * Bitcoin * Bank Transfer (from select countries [0]) * Major brand gift cards * Checks/Cash through the mail * Prepaid Paysafecard * Przlewy24 (Something available to people with a bank account in Poland) * Interac e-Transfer (Something available to people with a bank account in Canada) [0] US, European (with a SEPA supporting bank), Australia, New Zealand, Dutch (with iDEAL supporting bank), Austria (with EPS supporting bank), Germany (with giropay supporting bank) No idea about the usage though.
Beltiras 8y ago
Looks like an opportunity for an adult version of Patreon.
- dawhizkid 8y ago
  They already exist
  - astrodust 8y ago
    Imagine Patreon but even more dysfunctional and unreliable.
  - petepete 8y ago
    onlyfans.com for example
- saalweachter 8y ago
  The problem with a “Patreon for porn” or an “iTunes for porn” or an “Amazon for porn” or an “anything else, but for porn” is that one of the primary things many porn consumers are looking for is anonymity and deniability. If the service is mostly used for other things, they can pretend they are only using it for those things. Once a service becomes primarily about porn, they lose that deniability.
claudiawerner 8y ago
I find this worrying, and for the usual reasons. People would often want to make a living by making money from their craft, but it turns out it's not so simple as finding "the market", one needs a whole load of boilerplate for it too. One such piece of boilerplate is Patreon, and Patreon's boilerplate is payment processors. So it's strange that whenever this topic comes up, people speak of it as if it's just a little issue, when it's not. Often this idea that "it's their business, so it's their rules" is trotted out, which while of course being technically correct works to shut down any kind of critique of the state of affairs. People rightly or wrongly, depend on such platforms for their livelihood, and it's a shame that, as eurg wrote, nothing happens because it's a niche problem. It doesn't affect the "good guys", because we value their craft more than other crafts. But it comes down to this - I realise that if I ever wanted to monetise my own artistry, I'd have to use Patreon, and the limitation of what I can post (be that adult content, even the more "disgusting" kinds involving incest or bestiality as they mention) means that my creative output is limited. As such, what I can spend my time on is not only restricted by "the market", but also by Patreon, also by Visa, also by PayPal, also by Mastercard etc. I become self-censored, chilling effects.
- gruez 8y ago
  >People would often want to make a living by making money from their craft, [...] People rightly or wrongly, depend on such platforms for their livelihood [..] I become self-censored, chilling effects. oh please, stop making it sound like one artisanal widget maker's livlihood is being destroyed by The System. the truth is that they're producing and selling adult content, which (among other things) is riskier to transact than artisnal beads. the "mainstream" payment processors simply do not want to deal with the hassle, pure and simple. as other commenters have mentioned, there are payment processors that cater to such "high risk" businesses, but they don't come cheap.
  - claudiawerner 8y ago
    Unfortunately you are simply repeating the line I set out to criticise: >It doesn't affect the "good guys", because we value their craft more than other crafts. I am not only wanting to criticise the individual payment processors, because I understand the risk of doing business with such things. I want to criticise the whole system in which people must rely upon several centralised services in order to get by with their craft. The fact that such things are difficult to fund is the crux of the issue here, and the point is that it's a sad state of affairs to be in that the alternative options are scarce and expensive/difficult to procure. But the point is still lost. I will reiterate: people would much rather use their knowledge and skill for a craft than to work a minimum-wage job or even in between jobs; peoples' livelihoods are at stake, and it's disappointing to see a comment along the lines of "just use another service" or justifying the situation as simply being the way the world works. The point is that the world shouldn't work that way, and as soon as we realise that, the sooner we can put pressure in the relevant places to change it. The mere suggestion of alternatives (either in the crowdfunding platform or the payment platform) does nothing to help the people who, even if they could afford to move, would suffer a massive loss in audience and revenue.
astrodust 8y ago
Credit card company or morality enforcer?
- eurg 8y ago
  Credit card companies don't really care either way, but heavily regulated industries tend to prefer being on the regulator's good side, and the regulator is ultimately the political institutions. The mirror version of "distributed costs and concentrated benefits" is working against what progressively minded people would think of as simple personal freedoms: Most progressives are not avid consumers of adult services, so they won't throw their full political weight against such actions. But those who are against adult services _will_. I hope that voting and patience in explaining to political outgroups does help, but I admit it's more hope than anything else, strangely. This should be a bipartisan priority, but either party thinks they can "win" the though-police race.
  - astrodust 8y ago
    I was half joking. This often tends to be a problem of the customers more than the credit card companies. Adult content and gambling face charge-backs at a far, far higher rate than for other things. I'm sure cryptocurrency is now in this basket as well, as anything people have "regrets" about tend to get charged back way more than others. If credit cards were more secure, if you couldn't just claim "Wasn't me, gimme my money back" on just about anything, this would be far less of a problem. Credit cards should, at the absolute least, have embedded one-time password generators as a necessary component for online purchases. The American financial system is so ridiculously baroque, though, that I bet this will happen forty years from now when the chip+PIN phase in is finally complete.
drngdds 8y ago
This seems like a great use for cryptocurrency. (Not some weird complicated ICO-backed scheme, just regular payment.)
themagician 8y ago
This problem has existed forever. As long as I can remember. The main company that seems to be able to process credit cards for porn is CCBill. They seem to have no real competition other than small fringe services. As soon as those services get big enough it raises flags and they get shut down. How and why CCBill are able to do it while others aren’t I don’t know. You can sell snake oil on Shopify all day long but sell a JPG with that shows female nipples and it raises flags. Does anyone know WHY this actually is? I know it’s related to Title 18, Section 2257 somehow, but I don’t understand exactly how, nor why CCBill seems to operate without issue. Can somone with inside knowledge explain? Porn has come such a long way in the last 10 years. Maybe I’m just more progressive than I realize, but I see stuff like X-Art as actual art and I wish there was something like iTunes for porn. If someone can explain to be what the legal roadblock is for porn billing and how one might be able to get around it, I’d be the first investor and founder. Seriously. There is so much great pornography out there now I feel like you could actually change the way people think about it and maybe even clean up the industry. It doesn’t have to be a dirty thing you bury under 10 cryptic folders.
- corobo 8y ago
  I’m not sure how competitive they are but stripe recommends PaymentCloud[1] when they boot you because you’re high risk [1] https://paymentcloudinc.com https://paymentcloudinc.com
- pvarangot 8y ago
  I always thought this as payment processors optimizing their bussiness model till it's overfitted to "non-porn". I never worked in porn but I did work with payment and clearance systems from carrier companies a long time ago, think billing customers for SMS messages to specific numbers and then getting clearance for the carrier for the money. The risk of fraud or any kind of weird issue is stupidly higher for porn. Either simple "customer doesn't have the money" fraud or "the police knocks on your door because you got money from X customer" fraud. So maybe you need more people or better systems to deal with it while still being profitable. CCBill charges are huge when compared to other credit card processors. It's easy to reduce costs and complexity until the easiest solution to keep or improve current margins is don't do porn.
0x00000000 8y ago
I'll be 'that guy'. This is the number one use case for a cryptocurrency in my opinion - a decentralized microtransaction system. This isn't the first time Patreon has faced these issues and services like PayPal are notorious for closing your account then giving you the finger. I don't want to give my credit card info to 30 different sites or services or creators I want to support. I don't want a bunch of small recurring charges from different places on my credit card. And most of all, I don't want a service to arbitrarily be able to decide (or have others force their hand as in this case) what I am and am not allowed to support. I don't think the technology or people are remotely near ready for mainstream adoption yet but it is still the most compelling use case I've seen.
- swizzbeats 8y ago
  Well, all it takes is for the system to make it impossible to convert crypto to fiat.
  - mrhappyunhappy 8y ago
    Until one day you don’t need to.
    - swizzbeats 8y ago
      lol, downvote once an irrefutable comment pops up. salty much you crypto zombie?
    - imtringued 8y ago
      How are you going to pay your taxes with crypto?
- em3rgent0rdr 8y ago
  Unfortunately cryptocurrencies like bitcoin are a little ill-suited for automatic recurring payments because one of crypto's big selling points is that the crypto is stored on your computer, not in some bank or other computer, so it can't be easily automatically be taken from you. Of course maybe someone could develop a special type of crypto-currency or wallet system which allows for coin to be stored privately while also able to specify automatic transfers without any action by the user (nor the requirement to keep your computer online).
gruez 8y ago
I know what everybody's thinking: visa/mastercard is playing world morality police. But most of the major payment processors have banned certain types of products from being used on their platform[1], some of which obstinately lacks a "moral" reasoning (see: virtual game currency). My guess is that those types of businesses attract a high fraud/chargeback rate, which makes them more expensive to process. It's a risk/benefit trade off, nothing more. [1] https://stripe.com/gb/prohibited-businesses https://stripe.com/gb/prohibited-businesses https://www.paypal.com/gb/webapps/mpp/ua/acceptableuse-full https://www.paypal.com/gb/webapps/mpp/ua/acceptableuse-full https://docs.adyen.com/legal/adyen-restricted-prohibited-list https://docs.adyen.com/legal/adyen-restricted-prohibited-lis...
- jacquesm 8y ago
  Gambling is super high risk compared to porn. In fact, high risk is just another way in which VISA and MC will squeeze merchants, it doesn't matter to VISA because they pass all of the risk to the merchant anyway.
ajeet_dhaliwal 8y ago
Until I saw the stock image I was so confused. Adult content creators seems like almost everyone. It's outdated seeming to say it this way. Sexual content creators seems a better option.
- azernik 8y ago
  "Adult content" or "adult entertainment" is, in US English, exclusively used as a euphemism for pornography.
  - ajeet_dhaliwal 8y ago
    I recall but I’ve been living in Europe for 6 years and it seems odd now especially when phrased as ‘adult content creators’
    - azernik 8y ago
      Assuming it's in the UK, remember the saying: two countries, divided by a common language :-D
      - ajeet_dhaliwal 8y ago
        You’re right, it’s the UK.
hellbanTHIS 8y ago
Somebody a little while ago figured out the most popular Patreon pages, wish I could find it, but I remember there was SO much porn. Not regular porn either but weird japanamation porn, furry porn, you name it. And that‘s probably why Patreon doesn’t have a functional “discovery” feature. Like I have a songwriting web app almost ready that I think might do well there but without a way for people to discover it through the community what’s the point of using Patreon and not a traditional subscription model? The porn has to go so they can have a “you might also like” column that isn’t filled with hentai barf porn or whatever.
- ink_13 8y ago
  You can see the top Patreon creators on Graphtreon: https://graphtreon.com/top-patreon-creators https://graphtreon.com/top-patreon-creators Even going back in time (Graphtreon keeps historical data), there's less porn there than you suggest.
  - hellbanTHIS 8y ago
    I think that’s it but it didn’t have the categories when I saw it, so every other one was adult animation, etc.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
azernik 8y ago
TechCrunch did an interesting piece on this: https://www.engadget.com/2015/12/02/paypal-square-and-big-bankings-war-on-the-sex-industry/ https://www.engadget.com/2015/12/02/paypal-square-and-big-ba... The short version: PayPal blames the credit card companies, the credit card companies have nothing to do with it, and looking at court cases seems to indicate that regulations once required financial institutions to consider "reputational risk" but those were ruled unconstitutional a few years ago. It seems like everyone is sleepwalking into censorship based on entrenched business practices rather than actually making reasoned decisions.
LyndsySimon 8y ago
The same problem exists for firearms and related products. There are only a couple of (expensive) processors out there.
_trampeltier 8y ago
Paypal, Patreon, Visa, whatever. They do all the same. Remember Fetlife? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13483998 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13483998 And there are 1000 other examples too.
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dr87 8y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7cVmHQIiG4&t=300s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7cVmHQIiG4&t=300s accout susspended for this type of content. even if they unblock the damage is done allready. Patreon will be just an optionality, and I guess, some crypto will have to be used for processing, We can't rely on banks, that have their own twisted morality , It would be very good if oil proucers instead of using $ started to use cryptos. FED prints $ but it looks like it also controls banks and payment procesors. If you cant use $ for transactions, why use it at all, THis way they could potentialy controll every buissnes, ALL OIL PRODUCERS SHOULD START TO SELL OILL WITH CRYPTOS
adultcontent 8y ago
This idea that the livelihoods of adult performers are at stake is nonsense. Almost nobody in the industry relies on Patreon for their income, not in the least because people don't go to Patreon for adult content. Sure, some performers do set up one for their fans to support them, but practically nobody lives off of it. Not to name any names, but there are dozens of popular sites where performers can offer their content/services. They all take a relatively big cut (on the order of 50%), but that's due to rampant fraud, chargebacks and because of money laundering. If that service could be offered substantially cheaper, it would. Case in point is that despite the issues, cryptocurrency isn't popular at all.
newtron54 8y ago
I feel like this constantly happens. I'm not a fan of people getting shut down if they are creating something legal and it has an audience.
Havoc 8y ago
Seems unfortunate. These are what I'd imagine to be near private transactions between consenting adults. Where's the harm in that?
8bitsrule 8y ago
I recall a magazine that bought and published articles that were certain not to offend anyone. It was called Reader's Digest. Haven't seen a copy in decades, yet it persists to this day. There is a crowd that will pay to have what it's exposed to restricted. I guess they would not want Patreon to create a separate, less-restricted service. (The name 'Patreon' itself seemed carefully chosen.)
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scarface74 8y ago
I had a friend who was in promotions. She promoted parties mostly for gay women. Nothing sexual or explicit. She found it hard to get payment processors - this was around 2011.... I thought this was ridiculous.
asasidh 8y ago
bitcoin and clones - here is yet another niche opportunity.
lovelearning 8y ago
Whatever the reasoning behind these suspensions, I think it's very rude and unprofessional to simply suspend accounts without giving some warnings and some time for a user to comply. Most of these popular online services, including the tech giants, seem to prefer this rude approach. Not having any reliable human support makes the problem worse. Since you can't provide human support, just give some days to comply and then suspend.
- Nasrudith 8y ago
  Professionalism would require it to be an actual planned approach and not simply 'hair on fire' behavior in response to the knee-jerk reactions of others.
FooBadDev 8y ago
So consensus largely is - probability of fraud is higher in adult entertainment business, downstream processors either charge exorbitant fees or altogether refuse to accept such payments, to mitigate having to deal with chargebacks. My question is, Why is chargebacks still a thing ? Why hasn't the US adopted 2F Auth for payments ? With advent of smart phones we can have reliable identification based on two factor authentication, by sending a text message to mobile number registered with the bank, or even go further with text + fingerprint / text + password. The odds of fraud with such system would be minuscule. Is there any reason apart from banks being greedy and the government being hand in glove with them ?
- perrin68 8y ago
  Chargebacks protect buyers from dishonest sellers?
  - FooBadDev 8y ago
    Shouldn't that be job of a consumer protection body ? Banks should not be in operating in law enforcement domain / be deciding what's right or wrong. My understanding is most chargebacks are for fraudulent transactions, which were not authorized by the card owner.
- pentae 8y ago
  It actually runs deeper - the reason 'probability of fraud is higher' may as well be called 'probability of buyers remorse' is higher. In the industry we call it friendly fraud. When a customer finishes what he came to finish doing, the regret of spending 50 bucks can often result in a call to the bank. Some credit card providers make it even easier you can just click 'dispute' online and pretend like it was fraud to get a refund. Interestingly, 3D Secure (verified by visa etc) was created to solve the issue of friendly fraud, but whats mystifying is it applies for all categories except for Adult. Of course, this isn't the whole story, there's other factors like aggressive affiliate marketers - but it's a big part of it.
dolguldur 8y ago
Meanwhile the multitudes reiterate the “crypto is dead” mantra until next year.
joshfraser 8y ago
This is why we need cryptocurrency.
Isinlor 8y ago
Can someone explain to me why people and companies even use credit cards? Why not bank transfers? Why credit cards are often in exclusions to other payment methods? I wanted to support 3blue1brown on Patreon and I can't because I need to have a credit card. Even PayPal requires a credit card. If I want to have a server on AWS or Google Cloud I need to have a credit card. Why not prepay trough bank transfer? It's some American thing that is just imposed on Europeans because why not or there are some valid reasons why companies try to force credit cards on me? As I see it, if I send someone money it's up to me and that person, eventually to a court, to resolve any issues. Why bank can't be a neutral third-party? To me it seems like a beneficial deal to companies. If they got the money then it's up to them to return them or not, so they are in beneficial, safe position. Currently I try to somehow go around need for credit cards with virtual credit cards that are prepaid, but it seems like they are banned quite often... E.g. I haven't found a way to do prepaid for Google Cloud, so I can't use it.
- ThomPete 8y ago
  they need to make money, you cant charge for bank transfers.
  - Isinlor 8y ago
    Banks may want to charge for transfers, but companies should not care. If a bank takes profit it's less potential profit for them.
- chrischen 8y ago
  Credit cards offer a lot of benefits and cash back (essentially a discount).for bank transfer to compete they’d need to offer the consumer similar fiscounts in lieu of the benefits and cashback. Some cards can offer 3-5% of the transaction back, on top of a slew of benefits including extended warranty, 90 day accidental damage or theft reimbursement, price protection (a refund if the price changes), return protection (a refund if the store doesn’t accept a return).
  - Isinlor 8y ago
throwaway98798 8y ago
It's easy the see the financial institutions as the bad guys or the users as the idiots. But really, after having used a few of those sites for adult, I feel safe saying that most of them had/have it coming. Personal experience only a few weeks old, with a medium sized porn site: * During the subscription, you get another service -costing extra of course- proposed. The checkbox for it is checked by default, in small font, on the side of the screen. * The subscription; it renews every month by default. You better read carefully before you enter you payment data. * You want to cancel? No way to do it from your account settings. You try the web site of the processor; nothing. Well, actually, maybe there is, but the only way to log in is by using you card credit number. No thanks. You finally find a link (deep in the FAQ of the first web site) that will brings you to a page on the processor's web site. * Finally, you seem to be able to cancel; the page shows a "Membership cancellation" title, a pile of text, and a "I confirm" button. Well you better read the pile of text, because the "I confirm" button of the "Cancellation" page does not cancel your account. And that's only for one site. Beside that, there is also a whole bunch of stuff that would make any IT professional cringe really hard. It's kinda hard to believe that all of this is perfectly legal, specially given that they operate internationally. No surprise that their payment partners get reluctant to work with them. PS: not speaking about Patreon, never used that site.

306 points by cribbles 8y ago

eurg 8y ago

This kind of outcry happens again and again, but nothing ever happens, because it's a niche problem. Some time ago it was fetlife: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/03/payment-processors-are-still-policing-your-sex-life https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/03/payment-processors-are... And maybe of interest: When the EU brought out GDPR, so many people complained about the injustice of one group of governments bringing their laws to the world. For the rest of the world, this is nothing new: The dominance of the US finance sector means that any US law is automatically international law. Visa follows US laws, nobody can exist without taking Visa payments, so everybody follows Visa rules, which means you follow US rules. In the end, what is allowed is the intersection of behavior that's not penalized in any state of the world.

bb88 8y ago
> ... what is allowed is the intersection of behavior that's not penalized in any state of the world. In a weird way, I think China does this right. Winnie the Pooh is no longer allowed in China [1]. So they turn it off at the firewall. This is better than say, trying to force all the other companies in the world to comply with some stupid law that China makes up. While I disagree with China on their use of the firewall to block speech, it's a far better way to do it than to sue Disney to prevent Winnie the Pooh products from coming over into China. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-china-blog-40627855 https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-china-blog-40627855
- repsilat 8y ago
  Look at what China is doing to airlines -- "Say Taiwan is a part of China or we won't let you operate here." They have essentially the same policy as everyone else -- we'll force you to follow our laws, and if we can't we'll shut you out. Blocking the Winnie the Pooh content is no different. If China made up a large part of the audience of those sites, they would "have to" change. Ditto GDPR -- you can just ignore it and block Europe if you want, they're not forcing you to do anything.
  - bb88 8y ago
    Edited to Add: The last time I checked, the US believes that Taiwan is part of China. [1] China has the stupid laws here. Instead of forcing them onto the rest of the world, they prevent the content from coming into their state. Likewise GDPR is a "stupid" law, so it's the EU's job to prevent non GDPR sites from coming into Europe, and not Facebook's responsiblity for complying with a stupid law. https://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35855.htm https://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35855.htm
    - jakelazaroff 8y ago
      > it's the EU's job to prevent non GDPR sites from coming into Europe, and not Facebook's responsiblity for complying with a stupid law. As the grandparent said, it's not e.g. Facebook's responsibility to comply with the GDPR unless they want to do business in the EU.
      - throwaway11222 8y ago
        To be fair, this article says otherwise: https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbestechcouncil/2017/12/04/yes-the-gdpr-will-affect-your-u-s-based-business/#19ee758f6ff2 https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbestechcouncil/2017/12/04/ye...
        guitarbill 8y ago
        That article doesn't really say that: > The organization would have to target a data subject in an EU country. Generic marketing doesn’t count. [...] However, any U.S. company that has identified a market in an EU country and has localized Web content should review their Web operations. (It's actually a decent article that captures the nuances of GDPR well.)
- Rapzid 8y ago
  Until they can't and become bullies like with Taiwan. I'm actually pretty appalled how easily people point to one or two benefits to the way China handles something while completely ignoring the concessions as evidence of them "doing it right". Never mind these short term benefits are coming at the cost of policies that are an affront to liberty and the modern concept of democracy. So, I'm going to offer a counter opinion; I do not believe China does this "right". Dumb lawsuits are dumb, but I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bath water.
zeth___ 8y ago
>In the end, what is allowed is the intersection of behavior that's not penalized in any state of the world. That is hardly true. We do not follow the rules of Saudi Arabia and Iran. What happens is that the laws of the US and the intersection of local laws are what needs to be followed. The US is aghast that the EU is a large enough market to actually impact the rules of the global internet, and the laws are different enough that they will hurt the major US players. Now all of a sudden people are seeing why applying national laws to pure cyberspace is a bad idea. I'm moving into using tor because it feels more like the internet I knew from 1998-2006, slow-ish, unreliable, unpolished, anonymous, ephemeral and private, with all the warts there to see. In short a new network that takes A Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace seriously.
tedunangst 8y ago
And yet I'm constantly told that European banks make it trivial to transfer money without middlemen like visa. So why not just submit payment that way?
- dasil003 8y ago
  It's only trivial within each country, not across borders.
  - pas 8y ago
    No, it's pretty trivial for SEPA countries. https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/retpaym/paymint/sepa/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/retpaym/paymint/sepa/html/ind... Do you know of any problem? Instant clearing/settlement is in TARGET2 which is the ECB's vision for 2020.
    - iMerNibor 8y ago
      Stupid high fees from uk banks, for example (we're talking a flat ~15€ per transaction)
      - nissehulth 8y ago
        For SEPA transfers? Are you sure you're not mixing it up with SWIFT transfers?
      - def_true_false 8y ago
        Like with anything else, you just need to use a provider that doesn't suck.
  - jacquesm 8y ago
    That was true up to 1/1/2018. Now the transfers take a couple of minutes in most cases. The frustrating thing is that it is now quicker for me to move money between say ABN-Amro in NL and some Polish or Romanian bank than it is to transfer between ABN-Amro in NL and a RABO or ING account in NL.
randaouser 8y ago
check out spankchain: https://spankchain.com/ https://spankchain.com/ -high speed -prevents this nonsense
- Drdrdrq 8y ago
  Payment for adult content is where Ethereum and similar cryptocurrencies would solve a real problem. Of course tokens (like SpankChain) are not really needed for a solution, one could use ETH directly. The anonymity of transactions could be problematic though...
  - jMyles 8y ago
    SpankChain is a very sensible layer on top of Ethereum, allowing workers to bring their reputation and fanbase with them across services and avoid lock-in. This is exactly the kind of thing that makes sense to build on top of Ethereum.
    - Drdrdrq 8y ago
      I wish them luck and hope they solve payment processing problems for adult performers once and for all. That said, the only point of a separate token I see is getting them money so they can actually implement the system. From end users' point of view it would be easier if ETH was used directly imho.
      - jMyles 8y ago
        Well, if the client is the "end user", then sure. But consider the benefits that the worker gets.
technion 8y ago
Fetlife is also the canonical demonstration that cryptocurrencies don't solve these problems. They tried accepting BTC. Noone used it, even while they were struggling with Visa. They pulled the support citing lack of use.
- wishinghand 8y ago
  Don't they only accept actual money now, via ACH or debit card payments?
- gizmo686 8y ago
  This isn't true anymore. I just logged on to check, and they support payment by: * Bitcoin * Bank Transfer (from select countries [0]) * Major brand gift cards * Checks/Cash through the mail * Prepaid Paysafecard * Przlewy24 (Something available to people with a bank account in Poland) * Interac e-Transfer (Something available to people with a bank account in Canada) [0] US, European (with a SEPA supporting bank), Australia, New Zealand, Dutch (with iDEAL supporting bank), Austria (with EPS supporting bank), Germany (with giropay supporting bank) No idea about the usage though.

Beltiras 8y ago

Looks like an opportunity for an adult version of Patreon.

dawhizkid 8y ago
They already exist
- astrodust 8y ago
  Imagine Patreon but even more dysfunctional and unreliable.
- petepete 8y ago
  onlyfans.com for example
saalweachter 8y ago
The problem with a “Patreon for porn” or an “iTunes for porn” or an “Amazon for porn” or an “anything else, but for porn” is that one of the primary things many porn consumers are looking for is anonymity and deniability. If the service is mostly used for other things, they can pretend they are only using it for those things. Once a service becomes primarily about porn, they lose that deniability.

claudiawerner 8y ago

I find this worrying, and for the usual reasons. People would often want to make a living by making money from their craft, but it turns out it's not so simple as finding "the market", one needs a whole load of boilerplate for it too. One such piece of boilerplate is Patreon, and Patreon's boilerplate is payment processors. So it's strange that whenever this topic comes up, people speak of it as if it's just a little issue, when it's not. Often this idea that "it's their business, so it's their rules" is trotted out, which while of course being technically correct works to shut down any kind of critique of the state of affairs. People rightly or wrongly, depend on such platforms for their livelihood, and it's a shame that, as eurg wrote, nothing happens because it's a niche problem. It doesn't affect the "good guys", because we value their craft more than other crafts. But it comes down to this - I realise that if I ever wanted to monetise my own artistry, I'd have to use Patreon, and the limitation of what I can post (be that adult content, even the more "disgusting" kinds involving incest or bestiality as they mention) means that my creative output is limited. As such, what I can spend my time on is not only restricted by "the market", but also by Patreon, also by Visa, also by PayPal, also by Mastercard etc. I become self-censored, chilling effects.

gruez 8y ago
>People would often want to make a living by making money from their craft, [...] People rightly or wrongly, depend on such platforms for their livelihood [..] I become self-censored, chilling effects. oh please, stop making it sound like one artisanal widget maker's livlihood is being destroyed by The System. the truth is that they're producing and selling adult content, which (among other things) is riskier to transact than artisnal beads. the "mainstream" payment processors simply do not want to deal with the hassle, pure and simple. as other commenters have mentioned, there are payment processors that cater to such "high risk" businesses, but they don't come cheap.
- claudiawerner 8y ago
  Unfortunately you are simply repeating the line I set out to criticise: >It doesn't affect the "good guys", because we value their craft more than other crafts. I am not only wanting to criticise the individual payment processors, because I understand the risk of doing business with such things. I want to criticise the whole system in which people must rely upon several centralised services in order to get by with their craft. The fact that such things are difficult to fund is the crux of the issue here, and the point is that it's a sad state of affairs to be in that the alternative options are scarce and expensive/difficult to procure. But the point is still lost. I will reiterate: people would much rather use their knowledge and skill for a craft than to work a minimum-wage job or even in between jobs; peoples' livelihoods are at stake, and it's disappointing to see a comment along the lines of "just use another service" or justifying the situation as simply being the way the world works. The point is that the world shouldn't work that way, and as soon as we realise that, the sooner we can put pressure in the relevant places to change it. The mere suggestion of alternatives (either in the crowdfunding platform or the payment platform) does nothing to help the people who, even if they could afford to move, would suffer a massive loss in audience and revenue.

astrodust 8y ago

Credit card company or morality enforcer?

eurg 8y ago
Credit card companies don't really care either way, but heavily regulated industries tend to prefer being on the regulator's good side, and the regulator is ultimately the political institutions. The mirror version of "distributed costs and concentrated benefits" is working against what progressively minded people would think of as simple personal freedoms: Most progressives are not avid consumers of adult services, so they won't throw their full political weight against such actions. But those who are against adult services _will_. I hope that voting and patience in explaining to political outgroups does help, but I admit it's more hope than anything else, strangely. This should be a bipartisan priority, but either party thinks they can "win" the though-police race.
- astrodust 8y ago
  I was half joking. This often tends to be a problem of the customers more than the credit card companies. Adult content and gambling face charge-backs at a far, far higher rate than for other things. I'm sure cryptocurrency is now in this basket as well, as anything people have "regrets" about tend to get charged back way more than others. If credit cards were more secure, if you couldn't just claim "Wasn't me, gimme my money back" on just about anything, this would be far less of a problem. Credit cards should, at the absolute least, have embedded one-time password generators as a necessary component for online purchases. The American financial system is so ridiculously baroque, though, that I bet this will happen forty years from now when the chip+PIN phase in is finally complete.

drngdds 8y ago

This seems like a great use for cryptocurrency. (Not some weird complicated ICO-backed scheme, just regular payment.)

themagician 8y ago

This problem has existed forever. As long as I can remember. The main company that seems to be able to process credit cards for porn is CCBill. They seem to have no real competition other than small fringe services. As soon as those services get big enough it raises flags and they get shut down. How and why CCBill are able to do it while others aren’t I don’t know. You can sell snake oil on Shopify all day long but sell a JPG with that shows female nipples and it raises flags. Does anyone know WHY this actually is? I know it’s related to Title 18, Section 2257 somehow, but I don’t understand exactly how, nor why CCBill seems to operate without issue. Can somone with inside knowledge explain? Porn has come such a long way in the last 10 years. Maybe I’m just more progressive than I realize, but I see stuff like X-Art as actual art and I wish there was something like iTunes for porn. If someone can explain to be what the legal roadblock is for porn billing and how one might be able to get around it, I’d be the first investor and founder. Seriously. There is so much great pornography out there now I feel like you could actually change the way people think about it and maybe even clean up the industry. It doesn’t have to be a dirty thing you bury under 10 cryptic folders.

corobo 8y ago
I’m not sure how competitive they are but stripe recommends PaymentCloud[1] when they boot you because you’re high risk [1] https://paymentcloudinc.com https://paymentcloudinc.com
pvarangot 8y ago
I always thought this as payment processors optimizing their bussiness model till it's overfitted to "non-porn". I never worked in porn but I did work with payment and clearance systems from carrier companies a long time ago, think billing customers for SMS messages to specific numbers and then getting clearance for the carrier for the money. The risk of fraud or any kind of weird issue is stupidly higher for porn. Either simple "customer doesn't have the money" fraud or "the police knocks on your door because you got money from X customer" fraud. So maybe you need more people or better systems to deal with it while still being profitable. CCBill charges are huge when compared to other credit card processors. It's easy to reduce costs and complexity until the easiest solution to keep or improve current margins is don't do porn.

0x00000000 8y ago

I'll be 'that guy'. This is the number one use case for a cryptocurrency in my opinion - a decentralized microtransaction system. This isn't the first time Patreon has faced these issues and services like PayPal are notorious for closing your account then giving you the finger. I don't want to give my credit card info to 30 different sites or services or creators I want to support. I don't want a bunch of small recurring charges from different places on my credit card. And most of all, I don't want a service to arbitrarily be able to decide (or have others force their hand as in this case) what I am and am not allowed to support. I don't think the technology or people are remotely near ready for mainstream adoption yet but it is still the most compelling use case I've seen.

swizzbeats 8y ago
Well, all it takes is for the system to make it impossible to convert crypto to fiat.
- mrhappyunhappy 8y ago
  Until one day you don’t need to.
  - swizzbeats 8y ago
    lol, downvote once an irrefutable comment pops up. salty much you crypto zombie?
  - imtringued 8y ago
    How are you going to pay your taxes with crypto?
em3rgent0rdr 8y ago
Unfortunately cryptocurrencies like bitcoin are a little ill-suited for automatic recurring payments because one of crypto's big selling points is that the crypto is stored on your computer, not in some bank or other computer, so it can't be easily automatically be taken from you. Of course maybe someone could develop a special type of crypto-currency or wallet system which allows for coin to be stored privately while also able to specify automatic transfers without any action by the user (nor the requirement to keep your computer online).

gruez 8y ago

I know what everybody's thinking: visa/mastercard is playing world morality police. But most of the major payment processors have banned certain types of products from being used on their platform[1], some of which obstinately lacks a "moral" reasoning (see: virtual game currency). My guess is that those types of businesses attract a high fraud/chargeback rate, which makes them more expensive to process. It's a risk/benefit trade off, nothing more. [1] https://stripe.com/gb/prohibited-businesses https://stripe.com/gb/prohibited-businesses https://www.paypal.com/gb/webapps/mpp/ua/acceptableuse-full https://www.paypal.com/gb/webapps/mpp/ua/acceptableuse-full https://docs.adyen.com/legal/adyen-restricted-prohibited-list https://docs.adyen.com/legal/adyen-restricted-prohibited-lis...

jacquesm 8y ago
Gambling is super high risk compared to porn. In fact, high risk is just another way in which VISA and MC will squeeze merchants, it doesn't matter to VISA because they pass all of the risk to the merchant anyway.

ajeet_dhaliwal 8y ago

Until I saw the stock image I was so confused. Adult content creators seems like almost everyone. It's outdated seeming to say it this way. Sexual content creators seems a better option.

azernik 8y ago
"Adult content" or "adult entertainment" is, in US English, exclusively used as a euphemism for pornography.
- ajeet_dhaliwal 8y ago
  I recall but I’ve been living in Europe for 6 years and it seems odd now especially when phrased as ‘adult content creators’
  - azernik 8y ago
    Assuming it's in the UK, remember the saying: two countries, divided by a common language :-D
    - ajeet_dhaliwal 8y ago
      You’re right, it’s the UK.

hellbanTHIS 8y ago

Somebody a little while ago figured out the most popular Patreon pages, wish I could find it, but I remember there was SO much porn. Not regular porn either but weird japanamation porn, furry porn, you name it. And that‘s probably why Patreon doesn’t have a functional “discovery” feature. Like I have a songwriting web app almost ready that I think might do well there but without a way for people to discover it through the community what’s the point of using Patreon and not a traditional subscription model? The porn has to go so they can have a “you might also like” column that isn’t filled with hentai barf porn or whatever.

ink_13 8y ago
You can see the top Patreon creators on Graphtreon: https://graphtreon.com/top-patreon-creators https://graphtreon.com/top-patreon-creators Even going back in time (Graphtreon keeps historical data), there's less porn there than you suggest.
- hellbanTHIS 8y ago
  I think that’s it but it didn’t have the categories when I saw it, so every other one was adult animation, etc.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

azernik 8y ago

TechCrunch did an interesting piece on this: https://www.engadget.com/2015/12/02/paypal-square-and-big-bankings-war-on-the-sex-industry/ https://www.engadget.com/2015/12/02/paypal-square-and-big-ba... The short version: PayPal blames the credit card companies, the credit card companies have nothing to do with it, and looking at court cases seems to indicate that regulations once required financial institutions to consider "reputational risk" but those were ruled unconstitutional a few years ago. It seems like everyone is sleepwalking into censorship based on entrenched business practices rather than actually making reasoned decisions.

LyndsySimon 8y ago

The same problem exists for firearms and related products. There are only a couple of (expensive) processors out there.

_trampeltier 8y ago

Paypal, Patreon, Visa, whatever. They do all the same. Remember Fetlife? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13483998 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13483998 And there are 1000 other examples too.

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dr87 8y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7cVmHQIiG4&t=300s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7cVmHQIiG4&t=300s accout susspended for this type of content. even if they unblock the damage is done allready. Patreon will be just an optionality, and I guess, some crypto will have to be used for processing, We can't rely on banks, that have their own twisted morality , It would be very good if oil proucers instead of using $ started to use cryptos. FED prints $ but it looks like it also controls banks and payment procesors. If you cant use $ for transactions, why use it at all, THis way they could potentialy controll every buissnes, ALL OIL PRODUCERS SHOULD START TO SELL OILL WITH CRYPTOS

adultcontent 8y ago

This idea that the livelihoods of adult performers are at stake is nonsense. Almost nobody in the industry relies on Patreon for their income, not in the least because people don't go to Patreon for adult content. Sure, some performers do set up one for their fans to support them, but practically nobody lives off of it. Not to name any names, but there are dozens of popular sites where performers can offer their content/services. They all take a relatively big cut (on the order of 50%), but that's due to rampant fraud, chargebacks and because of money laundering. If that service could be offered substantially cheaper, it would. Case in point is that despite the issues, cryptocurrency isn't popular at all.

newtron54 8y ago

I feel like this constantly happens. I'm not a fan of people getting shut down if they are creating something legal and it has an audience.

Havoc 8y ago

Seems unfortunate. These are what I'd imagine to be near private transactions between consenting adults. Where's the harm in that?

8bitsrule 8y ago

I recall a magazine that bought and published articles that were certain not to offend anyone. It was called Reader's Digest. Haven't seen a copy in decades, yet it persists to this day. There is a crowd that will pay to have what it's exposed to restricted. I guess they would not want Patreon to create a separate, less-restricted service. (The name 'Patreon' itself seemed carefully chosen.)

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scarface74 8y ago

I had a friend who was in promotions. She promoted parties mostly for gay women. Nothing sexual or explicit. She found it hard to get payment processors - this was around 2011.... I thought this was ridiculous.

asasidh 8y ago

bitcoin and clones - here is yet another niche opportunity.

lovelearning 8y ago

Whatever the reasoning behind these suspensions, I think it's very rude and unprofessional to simply suspend accounts without giving some warnings and some time for a user to comply. Most of these popular online services, including the tech giants, seem to prefer this rude approach. Not having any reliable human support makes the problem worse. Since you can't provide human support, just give some days to comply and then suspend.

Nasrudith 8y ago
Professionalism would require it to be an actual planned approach and not simply 'hair on fire' behavior in response to the knee-jerk reactions of others.

FooBadDev 8y ago

So consensus largely is - probability of fraud is higher in adult entertainment business, downstream processors either charge exorbitant fees or altogether refuse to accept such payments, to mitigate having to deal with chargebacks. My question is, Why is chargebacks still a thing ? Why hasn't the US adopted 2F Auth for payments ? With advent of smart phones we can have reliable identification based on two factor authentication, by sending a text message to mobile number registered with the bank, or even go further with text + fingerprint / text + password. The odds of fraud with such system would be minuscule. Is there any reason apart from banks being greedy and the government being hand in glove with them ?

perrin68 8y ago
Chargebacks protect buyers from dishonest sellers?
- FooBadDev 8y ago
  Shouldn't that be job of a consumer protection body ? Banks should not be in operating in law enforcement domain / be deciding what's right or wrong. My understanding is most chargebacks are for fraudulent transactions, which were not authorized by the card owner.
pentae 8y ago
It actually runs deeper - the reason 'probability of fraud is higher' may as well be called 'probability of buyers remorse' is higher. In the industry we call it friendly fraud. When a customer finishes what he came to finish doing, the regret of spending 50 bucks can often result in a call to the bank. Some credit card providers make it even easier you can just click 'dispute' online and pretend like it was fraud to get a refund. Interestingly, 3D Secure (verified by visa etc) was created to solve the issue of friendly fraud, but whats mystifying is it applies for all categories except for Adult. Of course, this isn't the whole story, there's other factors like aggressive affiliate marketers - but it's a big part of it.

dolguldur 8y ago

Meanwhile the multitudes reiterate the “crypto is dead” mantra until next year.

joshfraser 8y ago

This is why we need cryptocurrency.

Isinlor 8y ago

Can someone explain to me why people and companies even use credit cards? Why not bank transfers? Why credit cards are often in exclusions to other payment methods? I wanted to support 3blue1brown on Patreon and I can't because I need to have a credit card. Even PayPal requires a credit card. If I want to have a server on AWS or Google Cloud I need to have a credit card. Why not prepay trough bank transfer? It's some American thing that is just imposed on Europeans because why not or there are some valid reasons why companies try to force credit cards on me? As I see it, if I send someone money it's up to me and that person, eventually to a court, to resolve any issues. Why bank can't be a neutral third-party? To me it seems like a beneficial deal to companies. If they got the money then it's up to them to return them or not, so they are in beneficial, safe position. Currently I try to somehow go around need for credit cards with virtual credit cards that are prepaid, but it seems like they are banned quite often... E.g. I haven't found a way to do prepaid for Google Cloud, so I can't use it.

ThomPete 8y ago
they need to make money, you cant charge for bank transfers.
- Isinlor 8y ago
  Banks may want to charge for transfers, but companies should not care. If a bank takes profit it's less potential profit for them.
chrischen 8y ago
Credit cards offer a lot of benefits and cash back (essentially a discount).for bank transfer to compete they’d need to offer the consumer similar fiscounts in lieu of the benefits and cashback. Some cards can offer 3-5% of the transaction back, on top of a slew of benefits including extended warranty, 90 day accidental damage or theft reimbursement, price protection (a refund if the price changes), return protection (a refund if the store doesn’t accept a return).
- Isinlor 8y ago

throwaway98798 8y ago

It's easy the see the financial institutions as the bad guys or the users as the idiots. But really, after having used a few of those sites for adult, I feel safe saying that most of them had/have it coming. Personal experience only a few weeks old, with a medium sized porn site: * During the subscription, you get another service -costing extra of course- proposed. The checkbox for it is checked by default, in small font, on the side of the screen. * The subscription; it renews every month by default. You better read carefully before you enter you payment data. * You want to cancel? No way to do it from your account settings. You try the web site of the processor; nothing. Well, actually, maybe there is, but the only way to log in is by using you card credit number. No thanks. You finally find a link (deep in the FAQ of the first web site) that will brings you to a page on the processor's web site. * Finally, you seem to be able to cancel; the page shows a "Membership cancellation" title, a pile of text, and a "I confirm" button. Well you better read the pile of text, because the "I confirm" button of the "Cancellation" page does not cancel your account. And that's only for one site. Beside that, there is also a whole bunch of stuff that would make any IT professional cringe really hard. It's kinda hard to believe that all of this is perfectly legal, specially given that they operate internationally. No surprise that their payment partners get reluctant to work with them. PS: not speaking about Patreon, never used that site.