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This. too many Tesla cults shilling online. The fact of matter is experienced and established brands are coming out with superior quality EV. In fact Tesla is

by pwaai 8y ago

This. too many Tesla cults shilling online. The fact of matter is experienced and established brands are coming out with superior quality EV. In fact Tesla is ill equipped to handle the flood of EV competition. Once Elon is forced to leave Tesla, it will be the end of the brand. There's just no way I would put down 70k for a Tesla when there are so many superior options coming down in the next 2 years. I'd even reckon Tesla won't be around within 5 years. The automotive market is filled with energetic visionaries who ultimately crushed by established automotive giants. Tesla is no exception in fact it will be far more crushing in that they basically paved a way forward for EV and other brands will fully reap the profit, not Tesla. Such is the cold reality of a saturated race to zero market. Tesla is not even a luxury brand like BMW or Lexus. It's steaming pile of shit that kills drivers on autopilot.

cptskippy 8y ago
And yet without them we probably wouldn't have EVs today.
- dirkgently 8y ago
  Just like how, without Apple, we wouldn't have had rounded corners.
  - cowmix 8y ago
    Pretty much the only reason any car manufacturer has ANY EV program is because of the threat of Tesla. Bob Lutz said w/o Tesla my Volt (or now Bolt) would not exist.
    - extra88 8y ago
      The regulatory pressure federally and by California to decrease emissions plus incentives to buy EVs matter too.
      - cowmix 8y ago
        The car companies just made compliance cars (and created astroturf org) to battle that. Until Tesla shamed them, they never really had to make serious effort.
        extra88 8y ago
        Shaming is very different than presenting an actual threat which some people claim Tesla was or is.
        cowmix 8y ago
        When I say "shame" I mean the consensus from the auto industry was/is: 1) EVs are slow 2) EVs can go far on a single charge 3) EVs are ugly 4) Batteries degrade a lot over time 5) EVs are expensive. etc, etc, etc Tesla has knocked out most of those bullet points.
      - cptskippy 8y ago
        > The regulatory pressure federally and by California to decrease emissions That pressure is dictated by the administration in power and the current administration has already started the process of rolling back the prior administration's regulations by changing CAFE requirements. In addition to that they've also questioned that Waiver that gives CARB it's authority. If successful they would strip CA of it's regulatory power. > plus incentives to buy EVs matter too. And those expire. Once Nissan hit's 300k units of the Leaf sold in the US they'll lose their credit and there will be very little motivation for people to purchase it. Unless they're able to significantly reduce the MSRP or dramatically increase the batteryt capacity, I wouldn't be surprised if the ceased production shortly after hitting 300k units.
- CharlesW 8y ago
  That seems unlikely, considering that the first "Golden Age" for EVs was in the late 1890s and early 1900s.[1] Musk was the first to use lithium-ion batteries for a highway-legal vehicle, but is that really a unique innovation that wouldn't have occurred to anyone else? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_electric_vehicle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_electric_vehicl...
  - cowmix 8y ago
    The 'innovation' is that car companies did not (and still do not) want to make EV cars. There's so much inertia behind ICE vehicles the incentive to make EVs is small. 1) Oil companies don't want them. 2) Dealerships don't want them. 3) Automakers don't want them. Tesla's energy has forced the issue.
    - cjhopman 8y ago
      > The 'innovation' is that car companies did not (and still do not) want to make EV cars Car companies want to sell cars that can make a profit. They're willing to wait for the technology to improve to the point that that is feasible.
      - cptskippy 8y ago
        Unfortunately our planet isn't.
  - justAnotherNET 8y ago
    Ah, so we’ve crossed from the “it’s impossible” to the “it was inevitable” stage of disruption :p
cowmix 8y ago
I "reckon" we'll revisit this comment in 2 and then 5 years.
themagician 8y ago
This may be true, but this is also what people have been saying for years. All the other auto manufactures do is release cool concept cars at car shows and then go back to producing the same watered down garbage. Right now there isn’t an EV that even comes close to a Tesla. And even the traditional luxury brands like BMW and Mercedes are losing to Tesla on the tech side which is increasingly the part of luxury that people care about. Everyone else keeps talking about these imaginary cars that other manufactures are going to make that are going to put Tesla out of business. It’s been FIVE YEARS of that talk… and nothing.
- cowmix 8y ago
  The iPace from Jaguar is a really good start however it still suffers from: 1) Dealerships: they still hate selling EVs. (My personal experience - my GM dealer spent hours trying to convince me to not by my Volt). 2) Charging: Tesla has the only serious world-wide charging network. 3) Software: Telsa (for good or bad) updates their software all the time. People get 'goodies' every few months. My Volt, only a handful of VERY minor software updates in five years. People are coming to expect that.
  - _ph_ 8y ago
    And the biggest problem: Jaguar plans to make only 20k cars in the first production year. I hope they have plans to increase production considerably, or it will be another token electric car.
    - gizmo 8y ago
      That's funny, because last year Tesla produced only 3000 or so Model 3s.
      - hackerman12345 8y ago
        And in the first quarter of 2018 they produced: Model S: 11,730 Model X: 10,070 Model 3: 8,180
baybal2 8y ago
>This. too many Tesla cults shilling online. The fact of matter is experienced and established brands are coming out with superior quality EV. I'm afraid to say that today even Chinese do. For the under $30k niche, Chinese automakers completely aced the process. On other hand, all Chinese "Tesla killers" to be, came out with really awful cars which, according to what first owners say, are prone to rapid disassembly after few minutes of driving in bad road conditions.
- JackCh 8y ago
  Chinese cars, not built to the safety standards demanded by other nations or built to the bare minimum at best, tend to be man-killers not Tesla-killers.
  - baybal2 8y ago
    In regards to performance, it is not a problem at all to make a car with Tesla like horsepowers to weight ratios. But after doing that, you still somehow need to make a driveable car. Few people who drove Nio ES8 for example can't hold expletives for the suspension setup, and extreme body flexing that makes doors to not to close after a single rough ride. Were not for their NDAs, Nio's creditors would've been calling back their loans now.
justAnotherNET 8y ago
I’ve heard the same crap in 2015, 2016, 2017, and just today with you. The “Tesla killer” is always 2 years away, just around the corner. Any day now. Just you see! I’m still waiting.
kemiller 8y ago
Tesla has one durable advantage: supercharger network. There is nothing remotely comparable and it limits the utility of their competitors. Until that changes they have a pretty good moat.
- compcoffee 8y ago
  BP just bought a large charging company, while Tesla has suspended their program. Honestly,how hard do you think it is for a gas station to provide chargers? It isn't rocket science.
  - TaylorAlexander 8y ago
    I googled for “Tesla suspend supercharger” and got no relevant looking hits. Are you saying Tesla is putting supercharger rollouts on hold? I just listened to the latest shareholder meeting and I don’t believe I heard anything like that. Usually they’re always expanding that network.
  - extra88 8y ago
    Most gas stations don't have the real estate. It takes 20 minutes just to charge to 50%. Charging needs to happen where people are already going to spend time while their car is busy charging; home, work, commuter parking lot/garage, mall parking lot, etc. Highway rest stops with gas stations and fast food could add chargers in the parking lot and adapt to people eating there instead of only stopping long enough to pee and get take-out/drive thru; it will make long road trips take longer but not acceptably so.
    - JackCh 8y ago
      Most gas stations will realize they have the real estate once they calculate how many additional hotdogs those bored EV drivers will buy while they're waiting for their charge.
  - cowmix 8y ago
    They bought the network to retard it's growth at best. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batteries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_au...

by pwaai 8y ago

cptskippy 8y ago

And yet without them we probably wouldn't have EVs today.

dirkgently 8y ago
Just like how, without Apple, we wouldn't have had rounded corners.
- cowmix 8y ago
  Pretty much the only reason any car manufacturer has ANY EV program is because of the threat of Tesla. Bob Lutz said w/o Tesla my Volt (or now Bolt) would not exist.
  - extra88 8y ago
    The regulatory pressure federally and by California to decrease emissions plus incentives to buy EVs matter too.
    - cowmix 8y ago
      The car companies just made compliance cars (and created astroturf org) to battle that. Until Tesla shamed them, they never really had to make serious effort.
      - extra88 8y ago
        Shaming is very different than presenting an actual threat which some people claim Tesla was or is.
        cowmix 8y ago
        When I say "shame" I mean the consensus from the auto industry was/is: 1) EVs are slow 2) EVs can go far on a single charge 3) EVs are ugly 4) Batteries degrade a lot over time 5) EVs are expensive. etc, etc, etc Tesla has knocked out most of those bullet points.
    - cptskippy 8y ago
      > The regulatory pressure federally and by California to decrease emissions That pressure is dictated by the administration in power and the current administration has already started the process of rolling back the prior administration's regulations by changing CAFE requirements. In addition to that they've also questioned that Waiver that gives CARB it's authority. If successful they would strip CA of it's regulatory power. > plus incentives to buy EVs matter too. And those expire. Once Nissan hit's 300k units of the Leaf sold in the US they'll lose their credit and there will be very little motivation for people to purchase it. Unless they're able to significantly reduce the MSRP or dramatically increase the batteryt capacity, I wouldn't be surprised if the ceased production shortly after hitting 300k units.
CharlesW 8y ago
That seems unlikely, considering that the first "Golden Age" for EVs was in the late 1890s and early 1900s.[1] Musk was the first to use lithium-ion batteries for a highway-legal vehicle, but is that really a unique innovation that wouldn't have occurred to anyone else? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_electric_vehicle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_electric_vehicl...
- cowmix 8y ago
  The 'innovation' is that car companies did not (and still do not) want to make EV cars. There's so much inertia behind ICE vehicles the incentive to make EVs is small. 1) Oil companies don't want them. 2) Dealerships don't want them. 3) Automakers don't want them. Tesla's energy has forced the issue.
  - cjhopman 8y ago
    > The 'innovation' is that car companies did not (and still do not) want to make EV cars Car companies want to sell cars that can make a profit. They're willing to wait for the technology to improve to the point that that is feasible.
    - cptskippy 8y ago
      Unfortunately our planet isn't.
- justAnotherNET 8y ago
  Ah, so we’ve crossed from the “it’s impossible” to the “it was inevitable” stage of disruption :p

cowmix 8y ago

I "reckon" we'll revisit this comment in 2 and then 5 years.

themagician 8y ago

This may be true, but this is also what people have been saying for years. All the other auto manufactures do is release cool concept cars at car shows and then go back to producing the same watered down garbage. Right now there isn’t an EV that even comes close to a Tesla. And even the traditional luxury brands like BMW and Mercedes are losing to Tesla on the tech side which is increasingly the part of luxury that people care about. Everyone else keeps talking about these imaginary cars that other manufactures are going to make that are going to put Tesla out of business. It’s been FIVE YEARS of that talk… and nothing.

cowmix 8y ago
The iPace from Jaguar is a really good start however it still suffers from: 1) Dealerships: they still hate selling EVs. (My personal experience - my GM dealer spent hours trying to convince me to not by my Volt). 2) Charging: Tesla has the only serious world-wide charging network. 3) Software: Telsa (for good or bad) updates their software all the time. People get 'goodies' every few months. My Volt, only a handful of VERY minor software updates in five years. People are coming to expect that.
- _ph_ 8y ago
  And the biggest problem: Jaguar plans to make only 20k cars in the first production year. I hope they have plans to increase production considerably, or it will be another token electric car.
  - gizmo 8y ago
    That's funny, because last year Tesla produced only 3000 or so Model 3s.
    - hackerman12345 8y ago
      And in the first quarter of 2018 they produced: Model S: 11,730 Model X: 10,070 Model 3: 8,180

baybal2 8y ago

>This. too many Tesla cults shilling online. The fact of matter is experienced and established brands are coming out with superior quality EV. I'm afraid to say that today even Chinese do. For the under $30k niche, Chinese automakers completely aced the process. On other hand, all Chinese "Tesla killers" to be, came out with really awful cars which, according to what first owners say, are prone to rapid disassembly after few minutes of driving in bad road conditions.

JackCh 8y ago
Chinese cars, not built to the safety standards demanded by other nations or built to the bare minimum at best, tend to be man-killers not Tesla-killers.
- baybal2 8y ago
  In regards to performance, it is not a problem at all to make a car with Tesla like horsepowers to weight ratios. But after doing that, you still somehow need to make a driveable car. Few people who drove Nio ES8 for example can't hold expletives for the suspension setup, and extreme body flexing that makes doors to not to close after a single rough ride. Were not for their NDAs, Nio's creditors would've been calling back their loans now.

justAnotherNET 8y ago

I’ve heard the same crap in 2015, 2016, 2017, and just today with you. The “Tesla killer” is always 2 years away, just around the corner. Any day now. Just you see! I’m still waiting.

kemiller 8y ago

Tesla has one durable advantage: supercharger network. There is nothing remotely comparable and it limits the utility of their competitors. Until that changes they have a pretty good moat.

compcoffee 8y ago
BP just bought a large charging company, while Tesla has suspended their program. Honestly,how hard do you think it is for a gas station to provide chargers? It isn't rocket science.
- TaylorAlexander 8y ago
  I googled for “Tesla suspend supercharger” and got no relevant looking hits. Are you saying Tesla is putting supercharger rollouts on hold? I just listened to the latest shareholder meeting and I don’t believe I heard anything like that. Usually they’re always expanding that network.
- extra88 8y ago
  Most gas stations don't have the real estate. It takes 20 minutes just to charge to 50%. Charging needs to happen where people are already going to spend time while their car is busy charging; home, work, commuter parking lot/garage, mall parking lot, etc. Highway rest stops with gas stations and fast food could add chargers in the parking lot and adapt to people eating there instead of only stopping long enough to pee and get take-out/drive thru; it will make long road trips take longer but not acceptably so.
  - JackCh 8y ago
    Most gas stations will realize they have the real estate once they calculate how many additional hotdogs those bored EV drivers will buy while they're waiting for their charge.
- cowmix 8y ago
  They bought the network to retard it's growth at best. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batteries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_au...