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For those who don't know, Juul is the inventor of the "salted nicotine" vaping trend which makes the nicotine spike much faster in the bloodstream than earlier

For those who don't know, Juul is the inventor of the "salted nicotine" vaping trend which makes the nicotine spike much faster in the bloodstream than earlier vape juice, which is more like cigarettes. They have a patent but it appears to be ignored by the vape industry as "nicotine salts" are widely available (added benzoic acid). The nicotine level is also much higher, allowing for lower wattage devices and smaller vape clouds, and a harsher hit that more closely resembles smoking. I think this technology is great if it can reduce the harm of smoking and get people off of cigarettes.

vanadium 8y ago
As someone who quit a 17-year cigarette habit for vaping starting in the early-ish days (2011, and it's come so far since then), nicotine salts might be the answer to those who relapse from trying to quit via vaping because it "didn't feel right." Quite frankly, the narrative to smokers who want to quit from vapers who have has been "it's different, but be patient"; if a closer analogue gets out there that closes the gap on attempts versus quits, I really think there's a no-lose situation.
- pm90 8y ago
  Is it really any better than smoking? I believe nicotine itself is the carcinogen, correct? Not just the ash and other byproducts of burning...
  - rileyphone 8y ago
    No, nicotine is barely a carcinogen and is essentially on the same level as caffeine in terms of danger.
    - kenning 8y ago
      My impression is that nicotine is "essentially" harmless but caffeine is actually harmless, maybe even good for you (kind of like a glass of red wine a week).
      - keypusher 8y ago
        Try taking a whole bunch of caffeine pills, definitely not harmless.
        barry-cotter 8y ago
        The dose makes the poison and tablets are about the only way you could overdose on caffeine. Your stomach will be telling you to stop long before you get to 40 cups, which isn’t enough for a healthy adult to overdose on.
    - tigershark 8y ago
      They said the same thing about cigarettes decades ago, proving it with “scientific” studies.
    - devereaux 8y ago
      And when it's mixed with benzoic acid? (the 'salting' process mentionned) From Bing: Is benzoic acid a carcinogen? It is considered safe only at less than a .1% concentration in a finished product (Source) When benzoic acid and vitamin C (ascorbic acid) or citric acid are present, under the right conditions of heat and light, these two ingredients can combine to create the known carcinogen, benzene.
  - Jarwain 8y ago
    Yes it's quite a lot better than smoking. Vaporization of juice is better on your lungs compared to inhaling smoke and tar. Less to get clogged. Nicotine itself has been shown to be significantly less addictive combared to Tobacco. Theories for this typically involve the fact that there's more than just nicotine in tobacco. There's a chemical in tobacco smoke, the name escapes me at the moment, that acts as an MAOI, reinforcing the effects of nicotine. This isn't to say that nicotine is harmless. Rather that the consumption of nicotine via vaporization is Less Harmful compared to smoking tobacco.
    - tigershark 8y ago
      Honestly saying that nicotine is far less addictive in e-cig rather than cig seems like a BIG BIG lie. At least speaking from experience.
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  There are a lot of people who weren't smoking at all starting to vape as well. I would consider that a pretty big lose.
  - lstodd 8y ago
    Why do you assume they wouldn't have started smoking in absence of vape?
    - s73v3r_ 8y ago
      Higher amounts of them are starting to vape than the rates of smoking would predict.
      - bfuller 8y ago
        I'll take you at your word (a source would be nice) but I fail to see how that is a bad thing.
        s73v3r_ 8y ago
        You fail to see how kids getting addicted is a bad thing?
        bfuller 8y ago
        Do you have any evidence that it is?
      - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
        citation?
      - colecut 8y ago
        I'll just throw in that I am one of those people who didn't smoke cigarettes but have attempted vaping multiple times. Cigarettes are gross, they stink. I've always stopped vaping after not too long due to issues with the ejuice tanks or just not feeling like doing it anymore.. but I actually picked up juul a couple days ago because I do enjoy that occasional 'nicotine rush', so trying this again =p I may be an idiot, but I'm also a stat. =)
- lstodd 8y ago
  Never heard about those 'nicotine salts'. Had the same problems coming from cigarettes (30+ a day) to vaping, that is, in stock juice nicotine content is just too low. All it took was self-prepared mixes, higher in nicotine, very low in aromas and those tobacco-like, vg/pg mix just as I like it. Came out about fifteen times cheaper than the off-the-shelf juices. Compared to the cost of cigs, even not counting health effects, vape is about two orders of magnitude cheaper. Now I dare someone tell me that 30+ 8mg cigs a day are somehow less harmful than ~8cc of vape.
aphextron 8y ago
> I think this technology is great if it can reduce the harm of smoking and get people off of cigarettes. I think this was the initial hope for e-cigs, but reality has turned out differently. These things are leading to a whole new generation of nicotine addicts at a time when smoking has fallen to all time lows in the US. Juul particularly is getting kids hooked that otherwise would have never touched tobacco, and they're getting a lot of heat over their advertising tactics now.
- colordrops 8y ago
  Getting everyone off very poisonous deadly substances is a fair tradeoff for getting new people hooked on something as dangerous as coffee.
  - rland 8y ago
    E-cigs didn't destroy the kid's market for traditional cigarettes, though. When I was in high school (right before vaping took off), smoking was only "cool" for a small subsection of the school. For everyone else, it was a stupid thing and kinda trashy. I'm guessing that the set of high school aged kids who would have picked up cigarette smoking if not for vaping is really quite small. So, we worked for decades to eliminate cigarette dependency, made huge progress, and now kids largely don't smoke. And then vaping came along, and a company is receiving billions from investors to get kids addicted to nicotine. Vaping is healthier, but I can't think of a conceivable reason why this is a good idea.
    - colordrops 8y ago
      Is there really evidence of an uptick in kids smoking traditional cigs due to vaping? Even if there was, traditional cigarettes are on their way out, and what we are left with is something as dangerous as coffee and a bit more expensive.
    - cloakandswagger 8y ago
      Because the entire human experience shouldn't be an exercise in neurotic min/maxing and risk avoidance. I'd rather live in a world where people occasionally smoke or gamble or have unprotected sex than one where everyone is driven by Type A obsession with health and money and living forever. If a kid picks up a nagging but ultimately harmless nicotine habit, is that really the end of the world? Given what we know so far about vaping and its safety, I'd say you could make an argument for the pleasure of flavored nicotine outweighing the annoyance of addiction.
devereaux 8y ago
Bing "benzoin acid carcinogen": Is benzoic acid a carcinogen? It is considered safe only at less than a .1% concentration in a finished product (Source) When benzoic acid and vitamin C (ascorbic acid) or citric acid are present, under the right conditions of heat and light, these two ingredients can combine to create the known carcinogen, benzene.

vanadium 8y ago

As someone who quit a 17-year cigarette habit for vaping starting in the early-ish days (2011, and it's come so far since then), nicotine salts might be the answer to those who relapse from trying to quit via vaping because it "didn't feel right." Quite frankly, the narrative to smokers who want to quit from vapers who have has been "it's different, but be patient"; if a closer analogue gets out there that closes the gap on attempts versus quits, I really think there's a no-lose situation.

pm90 8y ago
Is it really any better than smoking? I believe nicotine itself is the carcinogen, correct? Not just the ash and other byproducts of burning...
- rileyphone 8y ago
  No, nicotine is barely a carcinogen and is essentially on the same level as caffeine in terms of danger.
  - kenning 8y ago
    My impression is that nicotine is "essentially" harmless but caffeine is actually harmless, maybe even good for you (kind of like a glass of red wine a week).
    - keypusher 8y ago
      Try taking a whole bunch of caffeine pills, definitely not harmless.
      - barry-cotter 8y ago
        The dose makes the poison and tablets are about the only way you could overdose on caffeine. Your stomach will be telling you to stop long before you get to 40 cups, which isn’t enough for a healthy adult to overdose on.
  - tigershark 8y ago
    They said the same thing about cigarettes decades ago, proving it with “scientific” studies.
  - devereaux 8y ago
    And when it's mixed with benzoic acid? (the 'salting' process mentionned) From Bing: Is benzoic acid a carcinogen? It is considered safe only at less than a .1% concentration in a finished product (Source) When benzoic acid and vitamin C (ascorbic acid) or citric acid are present, under the right conditions of heat and light, these two ingredients can combine to create the known carcinogen, benzene.
- Jarwain 8y ago
  Yes it's quite a lot better than smoking. Vaporization of juice is better on your lungs compared to inhaling smoke and tar. Less to get clogged. Nicotine itself has been shown to be significantly less addictive combared to Tobacco. Theories for this typically involve the fact that there's more than just nicotine in tobacco. There's a chemical in tobacco smoke, the name escapes me at the moment, that acts as an MAOI, reinforcing the effects of nicotine. This isn't to say that nicotine is harmless. Rather that the consumption of nicotine via vaporization is Less Harmful compared to smoking tobacco.
  - tigershark 8y ago
    Honestly saying that nicotine is far less addictive in e-cig rather than cig seems like a BIG BIG lie. At least speaking from experience.
s73v3r_ 8y ago
There are a lot of people who weren't smoking at all starting to vape as well. I would consider that a pretty big lose.
- lstodd 8y ago
  Why do you assume they wouldn't have started smoking in absence of vape?
  - s73v3r_ 8y ago
    Higher amounts of them are starting to vape than the rates of smoking would predict.
    - bfuller 8y ago
      I'll take you at your word (a source would be nice) but I fail to see how that is a bad thing.
      - s73v3r_ 8y ago
        You fail to see how kids getting addicted is a bad thing?
        bfuller 8y ago
        Do you have any evidence that it is?
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      citation?
    - colecut 8y ago
      I'll just throw in that I am one of those people who didn't smoke cigarettes but have attempted vaping multiple times. Cigarettes are gross, they stink. I've always stopped vaping after not too long due to issues with the ejuice tanks or just not feeling like doing it anymore.. but I actually picked up juul a couple days ago because I do enjoy that occasional 'nicotine rush', so trying this again =p I may be an idiot, but I'm also a stat. =)
lstodd 8y ago
Never heard about those 'nicotine salts'. Had the same problems coming from cigarettes (30+ a day) to vaping, that is, in stock juice nicotine content is just too low. All it took was self-prepared mixes, higher in nicotine, very low in aromas and those tobacco-like, vg/pg mix just as I like it. Came out about fifteen times cheaper than the off-the-shelf juices. Compared to the cost of cigs, even not counting health effects, vape is about two orders of magnitude cheaper. Now I dare someone tell me that 30+ 8mg cigs a day are somehow less harmful than ~8cc of vape.

aphextron 8y ago

> I think this technology is great if it can reduce the harm of smoking and get people off of cigarettes. I think this was the initial hope for e-cigs, but reality has turned out differently. These things are leading to a whole new generation of nicotine addicts at a time when smoking has fallen to all time lows in the US. Juul particularly is getting kids hooked that otherwise would have never touched tobacco, and they're getting a lot of heat over their advertising tactics now.

colordrops 8y ago
Getting everyone off very poisonous deadly substances is a fair tradeoff for getting new people hooked on something as dangerous as coffee.
- rland 8y ago
  E-cigs didn't destroy the kid's market for traditional cigarettes, though. When I was in high school (right before vaping took off), smoking was only "cool" for a small subsection of the school. For everyone else, it was a stupid thing and kinda trashy. I'm guessing that the set of high school aged kids who would have picked up cigarette smoking if not for vaping is really quite small. So, we worked for decades to eliminate cigarette dependency, made huge progress, and now kids largely don't smoke. And then vaping came along, and a company is receiving billions from investors to get kids addicted to nicotine. Vaping is healthier, but I can't think of a conceivable reason why this is a good idea.
  - colordrops 8y ago
    Is there really evidence of an uptick in kids smoking traditional cigs due to vaping? Even if there was, traditional cigarettes are on their way out, and what we are left with is something as dangerous as coffee and a bit more expensive.
  - cloakandswagger 8y ago
    Because the entire human experience shouldn't be an exercise in neurotic min/maxing and risk avoidance. I'd rather live in a world where people occasionally smoke or gamble or have unprotected sex than one where everyone is driven by Type A obsession with health and money and living forever. If a kid picks up a nagging but ultimately harmless nicotine habit, is that really the end of the world? Given what we know so far about vaping and its safety, I'd say you could make an argument for the pleasure of flavored nicotine outweighing the annoyance of addiction.

devereaux 8y ago

Bing "benzoin acid carcinogen": Is benzoic acid a carcinogen? It is considered safe only at less than a .1% concentration in a finished product (Source) When benzoic acid and vitamin C (ascorbic acid) or citric acid are present, under the right conditions of heat and light, these two ingredients can combine to create the known carcinogen, benzene.