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E-Cigarette Maker Juul Labs Is Raising $1.2B
- martin1975 8y agoPersonally I like my Phix... twice the amount of nic juice, about the same price and bigger battery. Definitely more action for about the same amount of money. They're not the best kid on the block..just the first in this category.
- gringoDan 8y agoI wonder how good it is for public health if Juul is able to grow this market. Do the health benefits from cigarette smokers switching to e-cigarettes offset the young people who never would have dreamt of smoking cigarettes heavily, but regularly use Juul? I had no idea how pervasive Juul was for college students until my sister told me that multiple people were "Juul-ing" in all of her classes. Highly recommend this New Yorker article to understand the cultural phenomenon: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/05/14/the-promise-of-vaping-and-the-rise-of-juul https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/05/14/the-promise-of...
- wtvanhest 8y agoAbsolutely not good for public health long-term. Their recruiter reached out to me last December and it was a hard no for me based on what I understood about the industry. People use them for starting to smoke just as much as stopping and they are also heavily used for non-nicotine products as well. I don't hold any moral judgements on the brand, or customers, but I was not going to spend my effort helping that become a bigger company.
- fizwhiz 8y agoThe virtue signaling was unnecessary, tbh.
- ada1981 8y agoUsing the phrase “virtue signaling” seems to be a sort of “virtue signal”. Does it make you uncomfortable that someone would make a decision from a place of values and ethics? Or that they’d discuss it?
- sbinthree 8y agoCigarettes are "generally accepted non-virtuous behavior". Virtue signaling might mean doing something that anyone expects to be baseline "good person" behavior, but inappropriately advertising this fact. People tend to prefer to see virtue and identify it, much like people can safely refer to others as a genius but referring to themselves in that light suggests a lack of genius. Heaping praise on others for their virtuous actions is fine, where as attracting that praise in a form like this maybe not.
- ada1981 8y agoGenerally I find policing the expression of others to be a function of some disowned or repressed part of the policer.
- toomuchtodo 8y agoKudos for the ethics.
- awakeasleep 8y agoTobacco kills 7 MILLION PEOPLE A YEAR You confused your personal morality, which seems more based on "would this rule benefit everyone applied universally" with the question you were asked, which is of the "does this provide the greatest good to the greatest amount of people" variety. It's _possible_ that in the end, ecigs are not a net positive for humanity. But that is a belief without firm proof. They could be twice as addictive, but if they kill only 1/3 of us that cigs did, they'll be a net benefit. And 1/3 the lethality of cigarettes seems to be a drastic overestimation of their harm from the evidence we have right now.
- wtvanhest 8y agoI made my own assumptions and came to the conclusion that this was net negative not net positive. I guess we will find out in 30 years.
- awakeasleep 8y agoWell I am interested in what other features you considered in your analysis (not to disputed them, just curious about what elements spoke to you).
- flyingcircus3 8y agoYou, in fact, conflated the original question with a essentialized, worst case scenario that shoehorns a multivariate determination into a binary proposition. There are, after all, other methods of smoking secession beyond nicotene alternatives. In fact, there are some methods of quitting an addictive substance that work by actually stopping the ingestion of the addictive substance in the first place. Nicotene alternatives are akin to advertisers recommending you to take a break from Facebook when it's too overwhelming, instead of just deleting your account entirely, like a person with self control and agency might do when products and services continually make you regret ever starting to use them in the first place.
- seanmcdirmid 8y agoYou misunderstand what is really bad about cigarettes. It isn’t the nicotine, but the tar (the burning of it). Heck, nicotine gum has long been used as a safe smoking cessation aide. Not to mention it is present in many new works vegetables. Getting rid of the burning tar is a HUGE win for smokers, healthwise.
- Nursie 8y agoe-cigs have been proclaimed as between 95 and 99% less harmful than smoking, by some health charities. If these figures are well grounded in evidence then... probably yes.
- slg 8y agoOxycontin is likely a safer drug than heroin. That doesn't mean we should be working on growing the Oxycontin market on the assumption that every new user is someone who might have otherwise used heroin.
- varjag 8y agoMethadone is safer than heroin and is widely used in substitution therapy. Either way, the bulk of health damage from smoking was from the complimentary products of burning. You ain't getting lung cancer from nicotine.
- slg 8y agoI am not aware of any doctors that would recommend using methadone permanently and and it is only legally available to be prescribed for ongoing substitution therapy by federally certified abuse recovery centers. So my analogy still stands. No one should be actively campaigning to grow the methadone market the way that people are for e-cigarettes.
- magissima 8y agoHigh schools too, it's amazing how many kids use juul. I think a lot of them aren't even aware it's nicotine.
- GW150914 8y agoThey know, they don’t care. It was hard enough to convince people, especially kids, that smoking was bad for you and that was with something that made you hack up yellow slugs, and stank. I would guess that convincing people that vaping nicotine is harmful decades before the harm is readily apparent, in ways that are not well studied will be essentially impossible. Juul is just the perfect intersection of portable, concealable, and apparently consequence-free. Kids will use it, and I don’t see a way around it. Good luck to the poor little bastards.
- wycs 8y agoThere is startlingly little evidence that pure doses of nicotine are harmful without smoke.
- _Schizotypy 8y agohttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4553893/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4553893/
- Jonovono 8y agoEveryone in here is caught up in the physical harm of smoking. Celebrating moving from cigarettes to eCigs. I'll admit that's important. But for me, most of the harm cigarettes have (and also eCigs) is not how bad is it on your physical health.
- hazz99 8y agoLegitimate question - if most of the harm of eCigs is not on your physical health, what is it?
- TimTheTinker 8y agoThat’s a great article, and rather eye-opening. Juul may help cigarette smokers get away from tobacco, but wow — stories about teens and young adults taking Juul hits every 10-15 minutes are something else. That’s just plain addiction, taking them far beyond the threshold of diminishing returns, even for caffeine-like self-medication. There’s definitely a lot of money in creating addictions... this can’t be a long-term, net good to society the way it’s heading now.
- stefan_ 8y agoKids taking Juul hits every 10-15 minutes are not driving and are not drinking alcohol, so there is your public health benefit already, mostly in the former. If you're gonna be opposed to some fidget spinner infatuation on "think about the kids" public health concerns, start at what actually kills kids.
- Splines 8y agoIf you're going to pick something to say "Kids doing X don't drink a drive", vaping would probably be pretty low on that list.
- TimTheTinker 8y ago> start at what actually kills kids Sounds like you’re categorically ignoring whatever negative things don’t directly kill people... well-being encompasses a lot more than not dying.
- EpicEng 8y agoAnd when I was in school half the kids smoked cigarrettes. I have no idea what the numbers are, but you have to consider that fewer kids are using tobacco, which is a good thing.
- trentlott 8y agoWell, it depends. As far as I remember, the vehicle is propylene glycol. It isn't biologically inert, and I'm not sure how much work has been done to study buildup within the lungs or combustion products. Combine that with dodgy sourcing allowing metal contamination. It seems more or less the definition of trading the devil you know for one you don't.
- tigershark 8y agoI never heard of this Jool-thingy before, but when I was smoking I switched to e-cig for a while and after a couple of month I had to stop altogether because one night I managed to smoke the equivalent of 2 packs of cigs in something like 4/5 hours. After that night I didn’t smoke for 8/9 months I think because the effect that it had on me was so awful. After some huge stress at work I started again and after a couple of years I finally stopped for good, I hope. Now it’s 3 years that I don’t touch a cig or an e-cig, and I really hope that the new generation doesn’t fall on the new and glamorous nicotine trap, although I’m not really optimistic...
- singingfish 8y agoI'm not sure how you'd manage to "smoke the equivalent of 2 packs of cigs in something like 4/5 hours". Firstly you're not inhaling any combustion products, so that's not equivalent to start with. Secondly the absorbance of nicotine from ecig vapour is much lower than when nicotine is inhaled in the form of smoke such equivalence is not really measurable.
- homero 8y agoI was a heavy smoker, 2 packs a day, Juul was the only thing that helped me quit. Nothing else worked.
- 83457 8y agoAll I know is that I vastly prefer hanging around people that vape vs smoke. I am middle aged and wasn't that familiar with it but started running events with older teens and young adults with vaping being somewhat common (small fraction overall). For some events a dozen people go outside to smoke and then come back stinking the entire place up. Vapers on the other hand just take some puffs in the room and no one even notices or go out and come back smelling normal. Of course the highly scented or large clouds are annoying but not what most vapers I know do. Not sure how "juuling" figures in here but wanted to share my experience. Growing up annoyed with a mom who smoked and generally hating it, vaping has been a bit of a relief as compared to cigarette smokers.
- robertpelloni 8y agoFor those who don't know, Juul is the inventor of the "salted nicotine" vaping trend which makes the nicotine spike much faster in the bloodstream than earlier vape juice, which is more like cigarettes. They have a patent but it appears to be ignored by the vape industry as "nicotine salts" are widely available (added benzoic acid). The nicotine level is also much higher, allowing for lower wattage devices and smaller vape clouds, and a harsher hit that more closely resembles smoking. I think this technology is great if it can reduce the harm of smoking and get people off of cigarettes.
- vanadium 8y agoAs someone who quit a 17-year cigarette habit for vaping starting in the early-ish days (2011, and it's come so far since then), nicotine salts might be the answer to those who relapse from trying to quit via vaping because it "didn't feel right." Quite frankly, the narrative to smokers who want to quit from vapers who have has been "it's different, but be patient"; if a closer analogue gets out there that closes the gap on attempts versus quits, I really think there's a no-lose situation.
- pm90 8y agoIs it really any better than smoking? I believe nicotine itself is the carcinogen, correct? Not just the ash and other byproducts of burning...
- rileyphone 8y agoNo, nicotine is barely a carcinogen and is essentially on the same level as caffeine in terms of danger.
- kenning 8y agoMy impression is that nicotine is "essentially" harmless but caffeine is actually harmless, maybe even good for you (kind of like a glass of red wine a week).
- cowpewter 8y agoI've never been a smoker, but I do like vaping. Nicotine is a useful chemical when it's not accompanied by all the junk that comes with burning adulterated plant matter. I self-medicate with it for ADD. It helps me focus, more than caffeine does alone. I used to use the lozenges that are advertised for smoking cessation, but I switched to vaping about a year ago.
- GuiA 8y agoThat is a nuance that a lot of people are missing. Nicotine is highly addictive, but in itself does not kill you (at the amounts smokers/vapers are intaking it). What kills you is the delivery mechanism. We have plenty of data for how the "burning up dried tobacco leaves" delivery mechanism kills you. However, currently, we have very little data regarding how propylene glycol does or does not kill you in the long term. That is the big open question when it comes to vaping.
- simonebrunozzi 8y agoVery dubious about the long term health effects of e-cigarettes. Unfortunately, a startup can move much faster than proper regulation. I hope I'm wrong.
- skellera 8y agoE-cigs have been on sale for like a decade now. What kind of regulations are you hoping for?
- ttul 8y agoHopefully regulations that spell out the dangers of nicotine addiction (which are non zero) and which protect children to the maximum extent possible. Take a leaf from Canada’s new Cannabis Act, which is incredibly harsh on those who sell and distribute to minors.
- senoroink 8y agoStuff You Should Know recently put out a podcast vaping [1] that provided some insight on the subject. The conclusion was that better than cigarettes slightly worse than doing nothing. * [1] - https://www.stuffyoushouldknow.com/podcasts/is-vaping-really-bad-for-you.htm https://www.stuffyoushouldknow.com/podcasts/is-vaping-really...
- draw_down 8y agoPeople seem to love this thing. I don't really get smoking what appears to be a USB drive, but the market appeal seems pretty undeniable.
- jaequery 8y agoafter almost 18 years, i quit smoking and vaping altogether a year ago and i couldn't be happier now. it feels great to be finally free from smoking. i used to think smoking is good for relieving stress, but after i quit, i realize, it was smoking that created the stress every couple hours for me to light up another one.
- danieltillett 8y agoMy concern is more about the young age of many of the new users and the perception that vaping is safe. While I don’t doubt that vaping is much safer than smoking, I am not sure if I want to see 13 year olds vaping given it appears to be just as addictive as smoking.
- ergh 8y agoYou should be aware that many people stereotype vapers as being less intelligent, more impulsive, and generally trashier than non-vapers, similar to how those with tattoos, ear gauges, or other noticeable body modifications are stereotyped. In other words, unless you're already a smoker, vaping is a habit you should avoid taking up, because it can have negative social and economic consequences for you. And stereotypes generally (but not always) have a kernel of truth to them. For example, tattooed people probably are less intelligent on average than the non-tattooed: http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/?p=5616 http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/?p=5616
- 908087 8y agoIf you're not just trolling, you should be aware that many of us who choose to have tattoos or vape would consider it a positive if those choices kept people with beliefs like your own far away from us.
- bruthafez 8y agoThis is an incredibly shaky argument. The Halo Effect is real, and those who vape or have tattoos don't benefit from it. Is the benefit of driving away people who understand the Halo Effect greater than the detriment of not being able to capitalize on the Halo Effect oneself? Incredibly doubtful IMO.
- ergh 8y agoI had no idea there were so many tattoo-covered vapers on HN. Clearly, the userbase isn't what it was 10 years ago. I guess the low-IQ reddit Septemberists have completely taken over.
- ghostbrainalpha 8y agoWhy is vaping more popular than Nicotine gum, and Nicotine patches? A third party can't even tell their is anything special about your gum. So you would think it could be popular among high-school students and people on the air plane and the other situations that don't allow vapor clouds.
- lstodd 8y agoThat's because Nicotine gum, and Nicotine patches are ridiculously expensive compared to vape. Believe me, I tried.
- skellera 8y agoThe act of smoking is a huge part of the addiction. It took me a few months once I got to 0 nicotine ecig liquid just to quit that. For months after that, I constantly had the urge just to smoke. Wasn't even about the nicotine anymore.
- zubi 8y agoBecause smoking as a habit has very little to do with nicotine addiction. The psychological addiction is the key. After a long period of smoking it takes only a few days to fully overcome nicotine withdrawal whereas it takes much longer time and effort to get rid of the habit itself. Smoke, gestures, the ritual, everything related to smoking becomes a part of your identity, so replacing the whole package is easier compared to eliminating everything but the chemical aspect.
- frozenport 8y agoLooks like I'm closing my account with Fidelity
- _hardwaregeek 8y agoIt's pretty incredible how fast Juul took over the market. Even a year or two ago nobody I knew really vaped or smoked. But now Juul has basically made vaping popular. It's super easy to get, lightweight, and amazingly effective (i.e. addictive). I watched my friend go from never smoking a cigarette in his life to getting a Juul, to having serious stress and mood swings if he couldn't find his Juul. If he lost his Juul, he bought a new one immediately, no matter the price.
- therein 8y agoHe should have just contacted support and asked for a replacement. The actual device itself is actually quite simple and cheap and despite selling it for the price they are selling it for, they'll ship you a free replacement in a heartbeat because it is so cheap for them to manufacture. Aside from that, what bothers me with Juul and makes it possible for a competitor to potentially usurp them, even after the momentum they have behind them is how inconsistent the pod quality is. Let alone leaking, the pods degrade really quickly and juice sometimes seems to disappear. The liquid changes color and develops dark filaments even after less than a day passed since taking it out of its packaging.
- ttul 8y agoI have heard that you can’t find a stall to save your life at my kid’s high school because they are all constantly being used by Juul-ers. One has to wonder whether this is a good idea, hooking kids on nicotine, even if it’s free of smoke.
- xkcd-sucks 8y agoWhat is Juul doing that led to such resounding success compared to all the other ecig makers?
- cannabisceo 8y ago1. Simple to use pod system eliminated the headache of using DIY devices where you buy the e-liquid, cartridge, and battery separately and fill your own cartridges. 2. Salt-based nicotine provides increased nicotine absorption and juul patented that. It's literally more addictive. 3. It blew the competition out if the water. The other ecig devices offered at convenience stores were underpowered, poor performing, and obviously low effort. 4. Distribution. Getting into convenience stores and gas stations was pivotal to their success but arguably the product quality drove distribution. 5. The device is sexy looking. It's a fashion statement.
- iamthirsty 8y ago20 year old Juul addict living with two others! AMA.
- ergh 8y agoWhat is it like having a sub-100 IQ? How many times have you been arrested?