4 ms·

The Euro has caused their debt to appreciate, so now they owe more money in real terms because the currency doubled in value. Meanwhile, Germany is able to expo

The Euro has caused their debt to appreciate, so now they owe more money in real terms because the currency doubled in value. Meanwhile, Germany is able to export their goods without any currency risk. And now you have another layer of bureaucracy. The real issue is that when they created the Euro, they failed to consolidate the debt of all the nations. It's only a matter of time before the whole thing collapses.

apexalpha 8y ago
>The real issue is that when they created the Euro, they failed to consolidate the debt of all the nations. No one failed, we just didn't want to (for reasons very obvious now, in hindsight). Also, the countries (Spain, Greece, Portugal...) accumulated most of the debt _after_ they got the Euro precisely because the Euro enabled them to do so.
- pif 8y ago
  > No one failed, we just didn't want to (for reasons very obvious now, in hindsight). Would you mind explaining a bit more, please?
krageon 8y ago
The Euro took away the single most painful thing still plaguing travel between EU countries. These days an EU citizen can up and leave to a different EU country with very little friction (aside from the language in some places), which was the idea. That goal was achieved. It is unrealistic to expect that countries will somehow not be able to solve their financial issues just because they lost one tool. That's an excuse, not a reason.
- mnl 8y ago
  They lost control of their own currency. That's not just "one tool". It doesn't work and without full economic integration it never will. I think I know what I'm talking about as I'm living with this problem, have analysed it thoroughly because I have nothing better to do, know the history of this southern European country and their people, and as a result of all this I can't trivialize it by simply making up the belief that it'll be fine at some undetermined point in the future. It's more like the death by one thousand cuts, in slow motion.
  - pif 8y ago
    > They lost control of their own currency. Germany lost it, too. If it worked for Germany, why not trying to learn from their experience rather than keeping complaining?
- rablo 8y ago
  That’s only good for privileged people. Almost nobody I know has enough skill with any other language (and that includes English) to move to another country in the EU.
- beaconstudios 8y ago
  how does the Euro have anything to do with free movement? You could have one without the other.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >The Euro took away the single most painful thing still plaguing travel between EU countries. In other words, it took away one insignificant burden on travelling, something which people do a best a few weeks a year, and in exchange it devastated their jobs and communities, for which they depend on survival (and for having the money to travel) all year long... >These days an EU citizen can up and leave to a different EU country with very little friction Yes, and usually with tears in their eyes, because they're forced to leave their country, culture, friends and close family to go work on some country that did better. Often even at 40 years old or later, and after their job in their own country crushed, because (among other things) of the Euro. The saddest songs in most southern countries are about migrating. The kind of migration you describe is only a good thing (and a chosen option) for more privileged people who chose to do it and can chose to live where they want at a whim -- not for the millions merely forced to go find work elsewhere. >which was the idea Yeah, just not an idea that people asked for -- just the dream of the elites that created and pushed for it.
  - solatic 8y ago
    Human migration is not some new 21st century phenomenon. Humanity has been migrating in search of food, peace, and (later) jobs since before civilization. The poorest of the most desperate poor have migrated not even because of those Maslovian needs but for religion: "The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you"" (Genesis 12). The US suffers from the same problem. The rural interior has dropped out, towns have turned into ghost towns, and instead of picking up and moving for greener pastures, people cling to hope that their livelihoods will return. They won't. The wheels of capitalism are ruthless. The market forces capital to become more efficient over time, and capital has left in search of higher efficiency. People can stay behind and wither or get with the program and move and thrive. Freedom of movement in the EU is so precious precisely because it offers the choice to avoid desolation, to not be stuck in a place with no opportunity and no future. A unified currency is precious precisely because it is a store of wealth that transports across the Union without loss or risk of sudden inflation. If people decide not to make these choices that is their fault and theirs alone. It's not easy to pick up and move to a new place with a new language - I've done it myself - but it is very, very much doable, and the world's poorest do it every day, picking up and moving to the US/EU in search of opportunities which were completely absent in their home countries.

apexalpha 8y ago

>The real issue is that when they created the Euro, they failed to consolidate the debt of all the nations. No one failed, we just didn't want to (for reasons very obvious now, in hindsight). Also, the countries (Spain, Greece, Portugal...) accumulated most of the debt _after_ they got the Euro precisely because the Euro enabled them to do so.

pif 8y ago
> No one failed, we just didn't want to (for reasons very obvious now, in hindsight). Would you mind explaining a bit more, please?

krageon 8y ago

The Euro took away the single most painful thing still plaguing travel between EU countries. These days an EU citizen can up and leave to a different EU country with very little friction (aside from the language in some places), which was the idea. That goal was achieved. It is unrealistic to expect that countries will somehow not be able to solve their financial issues just because they lost one tool. That's an excuse, not a reason.

mnl 8y ago
They lost control of their own currency. That's not just "one tool". It doesn't work and without full economic integration it never will. I think I know what I'm talking about as I'm living with this problem, have analysed it thoroughly because I have nothing better to do, know the history of this southern European country and their people, and as a result of all this I can't trivialize it by simply making up the belief that it'll be fine at some undetermined point in the future. It's more like the death by one thousand cuts, in slow motion.
- pif 8y ago
  > They lost control of their own currency. Germany lost it, too. If it worked for Germany, why not trying to learn from their experience rather than keeping complaining?
rablo 8y ago
That’s only good for privileged people. Almost nobody I know has enough skill with any other language (and that includes English) to move to another country in the EU.
beaconstudios 8y ago
how does the Euro have anything to do with free movement? You could have one without the other.
coldtea 8y ago
>The Euro took away the single most painful thing still plaguing travel between EU countries. In other words, it took away one insignificant burden on travelling, something which people do a best a few weeks a year, and in exchange it devastated their jobs and communities, for which they depend on survival (and for having the money to travel) all year long... >These days an EU citizen can up and leave to a different EU country with very little friction Yes, and usually with tears in their eyes, because they're forced to leave their country, culture, friends and close family to go work on some country that did better. Often even at 40 years old or later, and after their job in their own country crushed, because (among other things) of the Euro. The saddest songs in most southern countries are about migrating. The kind of migration you describe is only a good thing (and a chosen option) for more privileged people who chose to do it and can chose to live where they want at a whim -- not for the millions merely forced to go find work elsewhere. >which was the idea Yeah, just not an idea that people asked for -- just the dream of the elites that created and pushed for it.
- solatic 8y ago
  Human migration is not some new 21st century phenomenon. Humanity has been migrating in search of food, peace, and (later) jobs since before civilization. The poorest of the most desperate poor have migrated not even because of those Maslovian needs but for religion: "The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you"" (Genesis 12). The US suffers from the same problem. The rural interior has dropped out, towns have turned into ghost towns, and instead of picking up and moving for greener pastures, people cling to hope that their livelihoods will return. They won't. The wheels of capitalism are ruthless. The market forces capital to become more efficient over time, and capital has left in search of higher efficiency. People can stay behind and wither or get with the program and move and thrive. Freedom of movement in the EU is so precious precisely because it offers the choice to avoid desolation, to not be stuck in a place with no opportunity and no future. A unified currency is precious precisely because it is a store of wealth that transports across the Union without loss or risk of sudden inflation. If people decide not to make these choices that is their fault and theirs alone. It's not easy to pick up and move to a new place with a new language - I've done it myself - but it is very, very much doable, and the world's poorest do it every day, picking up and moving to the US/EU in search of opportunities which were completely absent in their home countries.