5 ms·

Companies are in some cases (in many cases actually) perfectly allowed to collect user information and from a business perspective would be stupid not to do. E

by stef25 8y ago

Companies are in some cases (in many cases actually) perfectly allowed to collect user information and from a business perspective would be stupid not to do. Every time you use a loyalty card that information is collected and yes it's used to understand you and perhaps even influence you, to buy certain products. Buying diapers? Have a look at these baby toys. Most people will throw their personal information out there for a price reduction. The problem here is the leak, not the fact that it exists.

bdcravens 8y ago
There is a difference between a company collecting information related to its transactions and a data aggregator.
mulmen 8y ago
When did I buy diapers from Exactis? I’ve never even heard of them. I know exactly what my Safeway card is used for. I also deliberately do not register my phone number or other information to it. Of course they can probably associate it with my credit card but these things are easy to reason about. The real problem is combining all these datasets in one place for the purpose of perpetuating information asymmetry as a product. So actually yes, the problem is that this dataset of every single American exists.
- stef25 8y ago
  Safeway may outsource the collection and management of this data to a third party and that company may have a lot of clients and hence records of a lot of people. I have no idea if that's what Exactis is / does and people may not be aware of this, but it's the reality. EDIT looks like Exactis gets information on users through cookies, which is not the scenario I wanted to highlight.
- ur-whale 8y ago
  You seem to believe you can ward off information collection efforts by controlling yourself what you do and do not communicate to the rest of the world. While I sincerely admire the quixotic effort, I suspect you are fighting a losing battle. There are countless situations in daily life where you have no choice but to leak some tiny bit of information about yourself to an external database, and from there on, it's just a matter of cobbling the bits back together.
  - pilsetnieks 8y ago
    > and from there on, it's just a matter of cobbling the bits back together Maybe it shouldn't be. The bit of info I gave about myself I gave (even if implicitly) to a specific entity for a specific purpose. To sell or give that bit to another unrelated, unknown to me entity for an entirely different purpose is a violation.
    - ur-whale 8y ago
      I agree. But there's unfortunately no regulation in place to insure that. And if there were, GDPR style, there would still be the matter of: - enforceability - exceptions for to e.g. authorities
  - mulmen 8y ago
    You have misunderstood my comment. I realize I have no control over what Safeway does with my information or if they or someone else correlates it with other datasets. The data Safeway has is fine by me until it is correlated with other datasets. That leakage may be inevitable but the correlation is not. We just allow it today. GP claimed that the existence of the Exactis dataset was not a problem. I disagree. That dataset exists only because many disparate sets were linked with that inevitable leakage.
- yellow_postit 8y ago
  In your example does Safeway need to do all the data analysis on their own? Why can’t they contract out to others to analyze the rewards card data. Rarely do I know every subcontractor a business I interact with is using at the time.
  - NegativeK 8y ago
    I think people are worried about their data being sold, not some limited chain of custody where the data is only being used for the original merchant's analytics.
  - mulmen 8y ago
    The issue is not that a third party is involved, the issue is what that third party does with the information.
- drewmol 8y ago
  >The real problem is combining all these datasets in one place for the purpose of perpetuating information asymmetry as a product. Rephrased, the real problem is (currently) what happens once it gets combined with that wealth of other data (that's been purchased, shared, snooped and swindled) belonging to our data overlords like Google. >Of course they can probably associate it with my credit card Or if you've ever furnished an ID for some age restricted purchase while also using the loyalty card. Then of course theres location data from Android/smartphone, vehicle telemetry (mfg, finance company, mobile data service, OnStar, anti-theft service, insurance co 'safe-driver' tracking device), members of the Telco mafia (VZW,AT&T, etc.), video surveillance providers running facial & license plate recognition, et cetera. [1]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2017/05/23/google-now-knows-when-you-are-at-a-cash-register-and-how-much-you-are-spending/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2017/05/23...
rectang 8y ago
> The problem here is the leak, not the fact that it exists. The fact that the information exists guarantees that it will leak. If not from one company, from the next. Personal information is like hazardous chemicals.
- wu-ikkyu 8y ago
  >Personal information is like hazardous chemicals. Big data is munitions, ammunition that is loaded into algorithms which are like machineguns that can fire at the speed of light millions of times across the world in under a minute.
krageon 8y ago
Just like with weapons of a more physical nature, the problem is that they exist. The fact that they exist means that over time they/it will fall into the wrong hands. The obvious and natural solution to this is to not have them exist, or in this case to not have this database exist. Yes, I understand companies are allowed to do it. That's beside the point - just because they are allowed to right now doesn't make it right.

by stef25 8y ago

bdcravens 8y ago

There is a difference between a company collecting information related to its transactions and a data aggregator.

mulmen 8y ago

When did I buy diapers from Exactis? I’ve never even heard of them. I know exactly what my Safeway card is used for. I also deliberately do not register my phone number or other information to it. Of course they can probably associate it with my credit card but these things are easy to reason about. The real problem is combining all these datasets in one place for the purpose of perpetuating information asymmetry as a product. So actually yes, the problem is that this dataset of every single American exists.

stef25 8y ago
Safeway may outsource the collection and management of this data to a third party and that company may have a lot of clients and hence records of a lot of people. I have no idea if that's what Exactis is / does and people may not be aware of this, but it's the reality. EDIT looks like Exactis gets information on users through cookies, which is not the scenario I wanted to highlight.
ur-whale 8y ago
You seem to believe you can ward off information collection efforts by controlling yourself what you do and do not communicate to the rest of the world. While I sincerely admire the quixotic effort, I suspect you are fighting a losing battle. There are countless situations in daily life where you have no choice but to leak some tiny bit of information about yourself to an external database, and from there on, it's just a matter of cobbling the bits back together.
- pilsetnieks 8y ago
  > and from there on, it's just a matter of cobbling the bits back together Maybe it shouldn't be. The bit of info I gave about myself I gave (even if implicitly) to a specific entity for a specific purpose. To sell or give that bit to another unrelated, unknown to me entity for an entirely different purpose is a violation.
  - ur-whale 8y ago
    I agree. But there's unfortunately no regulation in place to insure that. And if there were, GDPR style, there would still be the matter of: - enforceability - exceptions for to e.g. authorities
- mulmen 8y ago
  You have misunderstood my comment. I realize I have no control over what Safeway does with my information or if they or someone else correlates it with other datasets. The data Safeway has is fine by me until it is correlated with other datasets. That leakage may be inevitable but the correlation is not. We just allow it today. GP claimed that the existence of the Exactis dataset was not a problem. I disagree. That dataset exists only because many disparate sets were linked with that inevitable leakage.
yellow_postit 8y ago
In your example does Safeway need to do all the data analysis on their own? Why can’t they contract out to others to analyze the rewards card data. Rarely do I know every subcontractor a business I interact with is using at the time.
- NegativeK 8y ago
  I think people are worried about their data being sold, not some limited chain of custody where the data is only being used for the original merchant's analytics.
- mulmen 8y ago
  The issue is not that a third party is involved, the issue is what that third party does with the information.
drewmol 8y ago
>The real problem is combining all these datasets in one place for the purpose of perpetuating information asymmetry as a product. Rephrased, the real problem is (currently) what happens once it gets combined with that wealth of other data (that's been purchased, shared, snooped and swindled) belonging to our data overlords like Google. >Of course they can probably associate it with my credit card Or if you've ever furnished an ID for some age restricted purchase while also using the loyalty card. Then of course theres location data from Android/smartphone, vehicle telemetry (mfg, finance company, mobile data service, OnStar, anti-theft service, insurance co 'safe-driver' tracking device), members of the Telco mafia (VZW,AT&T, etc.), video surveillance providers running facial & license plate recognition, et cetera. [1]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2017/05/23/google-now-knows-when-you-are-at-a-cash-register-and-how-much-you-are-spending/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2017/05/23...

rectang 8y ago

> The problem here is the leak, not the fact that it exists. The fact that the information exists guarantees that it will leak. If not from one company, from the next. Personal information is like hazardous chemicals.

wu-ikkyu 8y ago
>Personal information is like hazardous chemicals. Big data is munitions, ammunition that is loaded into algorithms which are like machineguns that can fire at the speed of light millions of times across the world in under a minute.

krageon 8y ago

Just like with weapons of a more physical nature, the problem is that they exist. The fact that they exist means that over time they/it will fall into the wrong hands. The obvious and natural solution to this is to not have them exist, or in this case to not have this database exist. Yes, I understand companies are allowed to do it. That's beside the point - just because they are allowed to right now doesn't make it right.