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Is not even an issue of number of jobs, but of quality of labor. Spain grew economically in the 70s and 80s because it was a developing country, and could prov

Is not even an issue of number of jobs, but of quality of labor. Spain grew economically in the 70s and 80s because it was a developing country, and could provide cheap labor to neighboring countries. The growth in the 2000s came from a massive housing bubble that didn't end well for most involved. As we became a developed country we didn't know how to reorient our economy. Now we are too expensive for cheap labor, which is relocating elsewhere, neither we are specialized or competitive enough to oppose other strong economies. Some times I have evaluated the possibility of going back there and try to make a career in tech. It just takes a couple of conversations with locals to erase that idea from my mind. The country is not socially tailored to attract and retain highly skilled specialized workers, and sadly it's an issue that I don't hope to see changed in the future.

l5870uoo9y 8y ago
> The country is not socially tailored to attract and retain highly skilled specialized workers. Care to elaborate? Genuinely curious. Spain does attract expats, they are however often pensioners.
- jxub 8y ago
  The situation with Spain is quite interesting. Usually engineers aren't that well regarded in Spain, people tend to aim to get into management. Other than that, salaries are pretty low and work culture is quite intense at most places, with people usually working ~10 hours a day. This is aided by the general lack of options in the market and a quite high degree of conformity which is a byproduct of the rigid educational system in Spain and which most graduates are embued with. Innovation, aside from a couple startups is lacking as most of the ecosystem is made of big consulting companies which have agreed to set cap on salaries to protect their shrinking margins resulting from years of cranking poor code by replaceable coders working in bad conditions. However, things are getting better with the arrival of some international companies like Xing or local successes like Cabify. Spain is a really attractive place for high tech, with most of the Mediterranean coast boasting Californian climate with Richmond house prices, great cuisine, high level of services comparable to Northern Europe and quite open culture. So it's logically pretty undervalued in my eyes.
- kebman 8y ago
  I would love to go to Spain and just program, actually, and I'm not a pensioner ... yet.
  - wutbrodo 8y ago
    Spain is probably my favorite country in the world for a number of reasons, and the next time I swing the pendulum away from career, my default plan is get a remote job in the US and live in Spain for as long as is convenient visa-wise.
- angarg12 8y ago
  jxub give a good summary of some of the big issues. Below I write my take on the biggest issues for me: (1) Favoritism: Knowing or being the right person is quite more important than doing a good job. In small companies usually the boss family and close friends are in the top positions. Usually the best way to move upwards is to kiss your boss ass rather than being a good professional. Pretty much the opposite of a meritocracy. (2) 'Low level corruption': We all talk about the big scandals, the ones that move millions and fill the news. We talk less about what I call 'low level corruption', or everyday small acts of corruption. Not paying taxes, cheating on the utilities, doing some underhanded businesses. It is quite disheartening when you are trying to be an honest citizen. Feeds a lot on point (1). (3) Conformism: Most people have little ambition in terms of professional development. Spain is one of those countries where civil servant is a dream job. People look for easy and stable jobs where they can get just enough money to get by, and enjoy their free time. Live is pretty good due to the cost of living and public services, and because of (1) chances are you won't get far no matter how hard you try, so why bother? An extensive support network of family and friends gets you covered in most cases, so people are not really worried about hitting rock bottom. (4) Envy: Maybe due to (3) society as a whole is full of envy and jealousy. We tend to say that this is a country of 'cainites', in reference to Cain, the biblical character who killed his own brother. We also say 'Nobody is a prophet in their own land', another biblical phrase to signify how hard is to get recognized by your peers. We seem to be happier being mediocre together rather than people sticking out. As one of my friends says, 'if I get screwed, everyone gets screwed', as he would sabotage anything that doesn't go his way. Instead of keeping up with the Joneses, we would try to drag them down to the mud with us. (5) Bad social and economic status for specialized workers: As I said in Spain a civil servant is a dream job. On the opposite side, most specialized jobs are not really valued in any way. Software Engineers would have good economic and social status in other countries; not so much over there. You would be mocked as a geek and nerd by your peers and your work wouldn't be appreciated. Salaries are much lower than other developed countries, not only because of cost of living, but proportionally too. In some places you would be paid a working class income. Put all these points together and you can see why we can't attract talent. Poorly regarded social status and income, in a place that doesn't value you, with very few opportunities and chances to advance your career.
  - 8y ago
hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
Having a single monetary policy for countries as different as Spain and Germany, with no real shared fiscal policy, is a direct contributor to this malaise. If they had separate currencies, Spain could inflate away a lot of their debt. This would cause a bunch of pain for your average Spaniard, but it would also mean that Spain's currency devaluation could drastically help its exports (and of course one of Southern Europe's most valuable "exports" is tourism). A direct consequence of being on the Euro is exactly what you point out: labor isn't really cheap enough to be competitive.
- kebman 8y ago
  Hm a single currency, seems to me, more and more to be a bad thing, only tailored for expansionist world corporations, since they are the only ones who benefit from it, really. A single currency has been sold as this good, because it does away with local money changers. However it also does away with local sovereignty, and in actual fact it does away with business diversity. When you put two and two together, you quickly see who the EU is actually working for, and it's not the small guy or the local store. All that stuff is a sham in order to cater to large multinational corporations to make it easier for them to collect and take over. The only things left over are then niche stores, while everything else turns Corporate Gray – in a way that is just all too reminiscent of Communist Gray.
  - thefounder 8y ago
    Why don't the US states use different currencies to be more competitive? Is there a communist/corporative conspiracy?
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - sgt101 8y ago
      US states enjoy fiscal as well as monetary union. The tax take in New York is used to balance monetary transfers from Tennessee, this is not the case between Greece Italy Spain and Germany.
Paul-ish 8y ago
Anecdotally, it seems like talent leaves Spain. Brain drain, so to speak.
nickreese 8y ago
Having spent more than a year in Barcelona in/around development & start up circles my biggest take away is that even the best developers I met were more interested in the status of becoming a manager instead of building something great. Additionally and more concerning is that there is also a very real sense in Barcelona that “innovation happens elsewhere” when you talk to these same smart people. It is strange and it is like they’re looking for permission to do something different. It is almost as if the social contructs support doing things the way they’ve always been done. Example: Even side projects would never get shipped and when I probed as to why my friend told me he “couldn't justify spending effort on this project to his family because he wasn’t getting paid for the work.” ... he had already built it the entire website and codebase and never shipped. (Surreal) I like another commenter think about starting my next venture in Spain but my gut and experience says it would be a bad idea if you needed to hire tech talent locally.
- kartan 8y ago
  > were more interested in the status of becoming a manager instead of building something great. It is not the status. For long being a manager was the only way of getting a reasonable salary and to get to older age with a job. Developers were young and badly paid. It existed a generation for whom being a developer or just knowing about computer was a high pay job, but that disappeared fast. Nowadays is changing fast. The main factor is companies that create product instead of consultancy companies that sell labour. For a consultancy, their profit is the difference between what a company pays and what the employee gets a salary. For a company with a product, the product quality, features and development time is important, so they pay and respect developers a lot more. I have been part of the indie game development scene in Barcelona. I have met several people in their twenties, half my age, with published successful games in mobile stores and Steam. Barcelona, the city I know, is changing fast for the better. Even that it is going to take time to get rid of the old habits. But I can see myself going back in a decade if they want to hire a developer in his fifties.
alexgmcm 8y ago
I moved to BCN to work in tech (from the UK). It's pretty decent and more companies are moving here now. I mean occasionally you see ridiculously low salaries but I used to see that in London too. I think the education system could be improved to help more people learn English and encourage people into fields that offer better prospects - but the latter seems to be a problem in almost all countries.
jgh 8y ago
> The country is not socially tailored to attract and retain highly skilled specialized workers I recently moved to France and had at one point considered moving to Spain. My wife and I are Canadians and we both wanted a change of pace from North America. Although France's visa scheme is somewhat more difficult and expensive than Spain's appeared to be we ended up going with France because you can get Permanent Residence and/or Citizenship after 5 years. And I can keep my Canadian citizenship. Spain is 10 years and the only way to be a dual citizen is if you're born in Spain or to Spanish parents.

l5870uoo9y 8y ago

> The country is not socially tailored to attract and retain highly skilled specialized workers. Care to elaborate? Genuinely curious. Spain does attract expats, they are however often pensioners.

jxub 8y ago
The situation with Spain is quite interesting. Usually engineers aren't that well regarded in Spain, people tend to aim to get into management. Other than that, salaries are pretty low and work culture is quite intense at most places, with people usually working ~10 hours a day. This is aided by the general lack of options in the market and a quite high degree of conformity which is a byproduct of the rigid educational system in Spain and which most graduates are embued with. Innovation, aside from a couple startups is lacking as most of the ecosystem is made of big consulting companies which have agreed to set cap on salaries to protect their shrinking margins resulting from years of cranking poor code by replaceable coders working in bad conditions. However, things are getting better with the arrival of some international companies like Xing or local successes like Cabify. Spain is a really attractive place for high tech, with most of the Mediterranean coast boasting Californian climate with Richmond house prices, great cuisine, high level of services comparable to Northern Europe and quite open culture. So it's logically pretty undervalued in my eyes.
kebman 8y ago
I would love to go to Spain and just program, actually, and I'm not a pensioner ... yet.
- wutbrodo 8y ago
  Spain is probably my favorite country in the world for a number of reasons, and the next time I swing the pendulum away from career, my default plan is get a remote job in the US and live in Spain for as long as is convenient visa-wise.
angarg12 8y ago
jxub give a good summary of some of the big issues. Below I write my take on the biggest issues for me: (1) Favoritism: Knowing or being the right person is quite more important than doing a good job. In small companies usually the boss family and close friends are in the top positions. Usually the best way to move upwards is to kiss your boss ass rather than being a good professional. Pretty much the opposite of a meritocracy. (2) 'Low level corruption': We all talk about the big scandals, the ones that move millions and fill the news. We talk less about what I call 'low level corruption', or everyday small acts of corruption. Not paying taxes, cheating on the utilities, doing some underhanded businesses. It is quite disheartening when you are trying to be an honest citizen. Feeds a lot on point (1). (3) Conformism: Most people have little ambition in terms of professional development. Spain is one of those countries where civil servant is a dream job. People look for easy and stable jobs where they can get just enough money to get by, and enjoy their free time. Live is pretty good due to the cost of living and public services, and because of (1) chances are you won't get far no matter how hard you try, so why bother? An extensive support network of family and friends gets you covered in most cases, so people are not really worried about hitting rock bottom. (4) Envy: Maybe due to (3) society as a whole is full of envy and jealousy. We tend to say that this is a country of 'cainites', in reference to Cain, the biblical character who killed his own brother. We also say 'Nobody is a prophet in their own land', another biblical phrase to signify how hard is to get recognized by your peers. We seem to be happier being mediocre together rather than people sticking out. As one of my friends says, 'if I get screwed, everyone gets screwed', as he would sabotage anything that doesn't go his way. Instead of keeping up with the Joneses, we would try to drag them down to the mud with us. (5) Bad social and economic status for specialized workers: As I said in Spain a civil servant is a dream job. On the opposite side, most specialized jobs are not really valued in any way. Software Engineers would have good economic and social status in other countries; not so much over there. You would be mocked as a geek and nerd by your peers and your work wouldn't be appreciated. Salaries are much lower than other developed countries, not only because of cost of living, but proportionally too. In some places you would be paid a working class income. Put all these points together and you can see why we can't attract talent. Poorly regarded social status and income, in a place that doesn't value you, with very few opportunities and chances to advance your career.
- 8y ago

hn_throwaway_99 8y ago

Having a single monetary policy for countries as different as Spain and Germany, with no real shared fiscal policy, is a direct contributor to this malaise. If they had separate currencies, Spain could inflate away a lot of their debt. This would cause a bunch of pain for your average Spaniard, but it would also mean that Spain's currency devaluation could drastically help its exports (and of course one of Southern Europe's most valuable "exports" is tourism). A direct consequence of being on the Euro is exactly what you point out: labor isn't really cheap enough to be competitive.

kebman 8y ago
Hm a single currency, seems to me, more and more to be a bad thing, only tailored for expansionist world corporations, since they are the only ones who benefit from it, really. A single currency has been sold as this good, because it does away with local money changers. However it also does away with local sovereignty, and in actual fact it does away with business diversity. When you put two and two together, you quickly see who the EU is actually working for, and it's not the small guy or the local store. All that stuff is a sham in order to cater to large multinational corporations to make it easier for them to collect and take over. The only things left over are then niche stores, while everything else turns Corporate Gray – in a way that is just all too reminiscent of Communist Gray.
- thefounder 8y ago
  Why don't the US states use different currencies to be more competitive? Is there a communist/corporative conspiracy?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - sgt101 8y ago
    US states enjoy fiscal as well as monetary union. The tax take in New York is used to balance monetary transfers from Tennessee, this is not the case between Greece Italy Spain and Germany.

Paul-ish 8y ago

Anecdotally, it seems like talent leaves Spain. Brain drain, so to speak.

nickreese 8y ago

Having spent more than a year in Barcelona in/around development & start up circles my biggest take away is that even the best developers I met were more interested in the status of becoming a manager instead of building something great. Additionally and more concerning is that there is also a very real sense in Barcelona that “innovation happens elsewhere” when you talk to these same smart people. It is strange and it is like they’re looking for permission to do something different. It is almost as if the social contructs support doing things the way they’ve always been done. Example: Even side projects would never get shipped and when I probed as to why my friend told me he “couldn't justify spending effort on this project to his family because he wasn’t getting paid for the work.” ... he had already built it the entire website and codebase and never shipped. (Surreal) I like another commenter think about starting my next venture in Spain but my gut and experience says it would be a bad idea if you needed to hire tech talent locally.

kartan 8y ago
> were more interested in the status of becoming a manager instead of building something great. It is not the status. For long being a manager was the only way of getting a reasonable salary and to get to older age with a job. Developers were young and badly paid. It existed a generation for whom being a developer or just knowing about computer was a high pay job, but that disappeared fast. Nowadays is changing fast. The main factor is companies that create product instead of consultancy companies that sell labour. For a consultancy, their profit is the difference between what a company pays and what the employee gets a salary. For a company with a product, the product quality, features and development time is important, so they pay and respect developers a lot more. I have been part of the indie game development scene in Barcelona. I have met several people in their twenties, half my age, with published successful games in mobile stores and Steam. Barcelona, the city I know, is changing fast for the better. Even that it is going to take time to get rid of the old habits. But I can see myself going back in a decade if they want to hire a developer in his fifties.

alexgmcm 8y ago

I moved to BCN to work in tech (from the UK). It's pretty decent and more companies are moving here now. I mean occasionally you see ridiculously low salaries but I used to see that in London too. I think the education system could be improved to help more people learn English and encourage people into fields that offer better prospects - but the latter seems to be a problem in almost all countries.

jgh 8y ago

> The country is not socially tailored to attract and retain highly skilled specialized workers I recently moved to France and had at one point considered moving to Spain. My wife and I are Canadians and we both wanted a change of pace from North America. Although France's visa scheme is somewhat more difficult and expensive than Spain's appeared to be we ended up going with France because you can get Permanent Residence and/or Citizenship after 5 years. And I can keep my Canadian citizenship. Spain is 10 years and the only way to be a dual citizen is if you're born in Spain or to Spanish parents.