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I wonder how much of that is gray economy. Greece has massive underreporting of anything tax and business related, because they don’t verify it. Farms and busin

by dzink 8y ago

I wonder how much of that is gray economy. Greece has massive underreporting of anything tax and business related, because they don’t verify it. Farms and businesses don’t report actual sales, earnings, probably even employees (anecdotally from locals reporting of income is less than 10% of actual). Spain has a problem with permanent labor given to senior employees with most youth being excluded from full time jobs. There is also some type of earn-in system to get to a full time job. If a lot of local industry is tourism, those can be filled with temporary work as well, that is probably not accounted for in these statistics.

yulaow 8y ago
Italy has almost 200 Billions of shadow economy (untaxed profits) per year see: https://www.statista.com/statistics/629463/shadow-economy-italy/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/629463/shadow-economy-it...
- adventured 8y ago
  It's larger than that. 20% of the Italian economy is shadow, something around $400 billion, according to a recent study by the Institute for Applied Economic Research at the University of Tübingen in Germany (IAW). The US has a $1 trillion shadow economy, around 5% +/-. Canada has a 10% shadow economy. Norway is up at 12%. https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/02/09/where-the-worlds-shadow-economies-are-firmly-established-infographic/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/02/09/where-...
  - superhuzza 8y ago
    I'm surprised Canada has such a large shadow economy. My guess is that a lot of it is restaurants/bars + cannabis.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  This is a really good point - but most good industries cannot exist in the shadows. You can't make cars 'in the shadows' for example. So while that may be a silver lining ... it's not a very happy one in the long term.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - m0llusk 8y ago
    That is not true, especially with the large Chinese financed, managed, and staffed factories that are increasingly common in Italy.
coldtea 8y ago
>anecdotally from locals reporting of income is less than 10% of actual Factually this is BS. While there's underreporting in Greece, way more than "10% of actual" income is reported -- closer to 70% or 80% [1]. And one of the reasons it's not higher it's that there are quite high taxes (including a 24% VAT on most purchases) for little to no return from the state (no good healthcare, no money for schools, no road maintenance, etc). It's like sinking money down the drain. ([1] In fact a study by the Applied Economic Research at the University of Tübingen in Germany puts the whole Greek "shadow economy" to 20% of the GDP -- for comparison Germany's is around 10% and USA's around 5%: https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/02/09/where-the-worlds-shadow-economies-are-firmly-established-infographic/#27d5abe7742c https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/02/09/where-... ).
- Nasrudith 8y ago
  Isn't that a self perpetuating problem of selfishness? Like complaining that the house is always dirty so why bother cleaning it?
  - coldtea 8y ago
    No, it's more like the people who create the garbage and the people who should do the cleaning are not the same, and when you clean a part of the house, somebody will come over and immediately throw garbage on it.
- fao_ 8y ago
  > no good healthcare I'm sorry, what? The WHO puts the Greek healthcare system at #14. The UK is at #18, Sweden at #23, Germany's healthcare system is at #25, and Canada, Finland and the US are at #31, #31, and #37, repsectively [1][2] And a more recent paper from The Lancet[3] puts Greece at #19. Sweden, Finland, and Canada have usurped Greece coming in at #4, #7, and #17, repsectively. That means that your healthcare system is still objective scoring better than Germany, the UK, and the US (the last of which is arguably a low, low goalpost, I admit). [1]: http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf [2]: http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian-health-care-information/world-health-organizations-ranking-of-the-worlds-health-systems/ http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian-health-care-information... [3]: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(17)30818-8/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
elorant 8y ago
Farms and businesses don’t report actual sales, earnings, probably even employees Sure they do, and since capital controls were enforced it's even harder for businesses to evade taxes because usage of plastic money has increased a lot. The largest percentage of tax evading in Greece comes from self-employed people and not from businesses.

by dzink 8y ago

yulaow 8y ago

Italy has almost 200 Billions of shadow economy (untaxed profits) per year see: https://www.statista.com/statistics/629463/shadow-economy-italy/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/629463/shadow-economy-it...

adventured 8y ago
It's larger than that. 20% of the Italian economy is shadow, something around $400 billion, according to a recent study by the Institute for Applied Economic Research at the University of Tübingen in Germany (IAW). The US has a $1 trillion shadow economy, around 5% +/-. Canada has a 10% shadow economy. Norway is up at 12%. https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/02/09/where-the-worlds-shadow-economies-are-firmly-established-infographic/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/02/09/where-...
- superhuzza 8y ago
  I'm surprised Canada has such a large shadow economy. My guess is that a lot of it is restaurants/bars + cannabis.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
This is a really good point - but most good industries cannot exist in the shadows. You can't make cars 'in the shadows' for example. So while that may be a silver lining ... it's not a very happy one in the long term.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- m0llusk 8y ago
  That is not true, especially with the large Chinese financed, managed, and staffed factories that are increasingly common in Italy.

coldtea 8y ago

>anecdotally from locals reporting of income is less than 10% of actual Factually this is BS. While there's underreporting in Greece, way more than "10% of actual" income is reported -- closer to 70% or 80% [1]. And one of the reasons it's not higher it's that there are quite high taxes (including a 24% VAT on most purchases) for little to no return from the state (no good healthcare, no money for schools, no road maintenance, etc). It's like sinking money down the drain. ([1] In fact a study by the Applied Economic Research at the University of Tübingen in Germany puts the whole Greek "shadow economy" to 20% of the GDP -- for comparison Germany's is around 10% and USA's around 5%: https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/02/09/where-the-worlds-shadow-economies-are-firmly-established-infographic/#27d5abe7742c https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/02/09/where-... ).

Nasrudith 8y ago
Isn't that a self perpetuating problem of selfishness? Like complaining that the house is always dirty so why bother cleaning it?
- coldtea 8y ago
  No, it's more like the people who create the garbage and the people who should do the cleaning are not the same, and when you clean a part of the house, somebody will come over and immediately throw garbage on it.
fao_ 8y ago
> no good healthcare I'm sorry, what? The WHO puts the Greek healthcare system at #14. The UK is at #18, Sweden at #23, Germany's healthcare system is at #25, and Canada, Finland and the US are at #31, #31, and #37, repsectively [1][2] And a more recent paper from The Lancet[3] puts Greece at #19. Sweden, Finland, and Canada have usurped Greece coming in at #4, #7, and #17, repsectively. That means that your healthcare system is still objective scoring better than Germany, the UK, and the US (the last of which is arguably a low, low goalpost, I admit). [1]: http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf [2]: http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian-health-care-information/world-health-organizations-ranking-of-the-worlds-health-systems/ http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian-health-care-information... [3]: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(17)30818-8/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

elorant 8y ago

Farms and businesses don’t report actual sales, earnings, probably even employees Sure they do, and since capital controls were enforced it's even harder for businesses to evade taxes because usage of plastic money has increased a lot. The largest percentage of tax evading in Greece comes from self-employed people and not from businesses.