5 ms·

I wish TFA had more detail about the conditions within each country. You can’t just treat northern Italy and southern Italy like they’re the same economy.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
axaxs 8y ago
As someone unfamiliar with Italy, would you mind to explain a bit?
- rukittenme 8y ago
  The north is industrial. The south is mafia.
  - yulaow 8y ago
    This is a very big oversimplification, mainly because the mafia is everywhere, probably these days they have even far more interests and investments in the rich north. The problem is the industry presence and the type of those (south was mainly low-skilled manufacturing and agricolture, both of which are being heavily delocalized by globalization leaving almost no well paying jobs in those regions)
  - tomcooks 8y ago
    Implying investing in Milan and being very close to Swiss banks hasn't been the rule since the late 90s~
- rm_-rf_slash 8y ago
  Northern Italy (think Turin, Milan, etc) is highly industrialized and has a robust modern economy, with global exports from fashion and finance and major brands like Fiat and Ferrari. Southern Italy (generally seen as being south of Rome or Lazio, the state Rome is in), has far less industry and mostly relies on agricultural products. I have family in southern Italy and it is very hard for young people because there are few to no opportunities. Many young people leave for better opportunities in the northern part of the country or they leave Italy entirely, which further deepens southern Italy’s economic rut.
- Arnt 8y ago
  The (far) north of Italy is a bunch of Germans that happen to speak Italian and wear better-looking clothes. The South of Italy is a bunch of nogoodniks who live on handouts from the north unless they... I'm tired of overblown stereotypes already and can't find a suitable mafia-related slur. But even though that previous paragraph was overblown there are differences. Maybe because of the Mafia's firm grip, maybe for other reasons. The Italians seem to feel rather strongly about the differences. Google for "italy mezzogiorno" if you want more. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostrada_A3_(Italy)#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostrada_A3_(Italy)#History and ponder the sums and delays. It'll make you feel better about the cost overruns wherever you live ;)
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    Does the mafia still have influence in southern Italy?
    - yulaow 8y ago
      Yes, in particular in the poorest areas. The mafia offers very good pays for criminals jobs in areas where basically there are literally no industries and everyone else is living by welfare support.
    - yardie 8y ago
      Yes, and quite visibly too. We aren't even Sicilian, just a humble family preparing our boat for a sabbatical. But we knew which towns not to enter at night, (cough) Gela.
  - 21 8y ago
    Maybe, but at the same time, a bigger country is always better. Splitting Italy into two would be worse long term for both halfs. You have the same talk in US, that California and New York pay all the taxes and carry on their back other "unproductive" states.
    - Udik 8y ago
      > at the same time, a bigger country is always better Why so? And for whom, exactly? Do you think the US would fare better overall if they joined with southern countries like Mexico, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Venezuela and Colombia? Also, Italy is inside the EU. I'm not sure that inside a supra-national entity as the EU the reasons for building bigger nation-states- reasons that were surely valid in the 19th century- still stand.
- yulaow 8y ago
  Northen regions of Italy have a GDP often of double+ the value of that of Southern regions See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Italian_regions_by_GDP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Italian_regions_by_GDP
  - adventured 8y ago
    You see wide variances in most every country. In Scandinavia, the population centers are drastically wealthier, with far higher GDP per capitas, than the rural areas. In the US, New York and Massachusetts have 2x the GDP per capita of Mississippi (or, eg Connecticut has a 70% higher GDP per capita than Arizona; and that's despite Arizona's GDP per capita being as high as Germany) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per_capita#Current https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per...
    - TulliusCicero 8y ago
      That makes Germany sound bad, but factor in PPP and hours worked and it's pretty comparable to the US overall.
- setgree 8y ago
  Re: differences between Northern and Southern Italy: Robert Putnam's 'Making Democracy Work' covers differences between the regions in great detail. I read it three years ago so I can't give a better summary than its wikipedia page [0]: "Around 1000 A.D. Northern Italy and Central Italy had a more active civil society,[2] with many citizens taking part in politics and social gatherings in their communities. Northern-Central Italians had a mutual trust for their fellow citizen, governing horizontally. Politics was less hierarchical in their region. Southern Italy, however, was very different from its Northern-Central counterpart; a group of Norman Mercenaries created order in the area. The governing structure was much more vertical: the peasants were controlled by the knights and the knights were controlled by the kings. Northern and Central Italy created a democratic-type system for their citizens. Conversely, Southern Italy created a feudal and autocratic system of governing. Putnam concludes that these long-standing differences still help to explain North-South differences in governance, many centuries later...The civic nature of Northern Italy and Central Italy dating back to medieval times has caused the region to be prosperous in modern times. Southern Italy, however, with its more feudal nature in medieval times has caused the region to be the origin of the Mafia and has created a less successful region. The Mafia's hierarchical structure is very similar to Southern Italy's feudal roots, according to Putnam." [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_Democracy_Work https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_Democracy_Work
  - pmontra 8y ago
    Add the unification process to that, which was in part welcomed by people and in part forced by an army from the North. It was like when two companies merge: the people from the company that leads the merge end up in better positions than the ones from the weaker company. The South kind of lost a war and perhaps they didn't realize it, even now.
tluyben2 8y ago
Same with Spain.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

axaxs 8y ago

As someone unfamiliar with Italy, would you mind to explain a bit?

rukittenme 8y ago
The north is industrial. The south is mafia.
- yulaow 8y ago
  This is a very big oversimplification, mainly because the mafia is everywhere, probably these days they have even far more interests and investments in the rich north. The problem is the industry presence and the type of those (south was mainly low-skilled manufacturing and agricolture, both of which are being heavily delocalized by globalization leaving almost no well paying jobs in those regions)
- tomcooks 8y ago
  Implying investing in Milan and being very close to Swiss banks hasn't been the rule since the late 90s~
rm_-rf_slash 8y ago
Northern Italy (think Turin, Milan, etc) is highly industrialized and has a robust modern economy, with global exports from fashion and finance and major brands like Fiat and Ferrari. Southern Italy (generally seen as being south of Rome or Lazio, the state Rome is in), has far less industry and mostly relies on agricultural products. I have family in southern Italy and it is very hard for young people because there are few to no opportunities. Many young people leave for better opportunities in the northern part of the country or they leave Italy entirely, which further deepens southern Italy’s economic rut.
Arnt 8y ago
The (far) north of Italy is a bunch of Germans that happen to speak Italian and wear better-looking clothes. The South of Italy is a bunch of nogoodniks who live on handouts from the north unless they... I'm tired of overblown stereotypes already and can't find a suitable mafia-related slur. But even though that previous paragraph was overblown there are differences. Maybe because of the Mafia's firm grip, maybe for other reasons. The Italians seem to feel rather strongly about the differences. Google for "italy mezzogiorno" if you want more. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostrada_A3_(Italy)#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostrada_A3_(Italy)#History and ponder the sums and delays. It'll make you feel better about the cost overruns wherever you live ;)
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  Does the mafia still have influence in southern Italy?
  - yulaow 8y ago
    Yes, in particular in the poorest areas. The mafia offers very good pays for criminals jobs in areas where basically there are literally no industries and everyone else is living by welfare support.
  - yardie 8y ago
    Yes, and quite visibly too. We aren't even Sicilian, just a humble family preparing our boat for a sabbatical. But we knew which towns not to enter at night, (cough) Gela.
- 21 8y ago
  Maybe, but at the same time, a bigger country is always better. Splitting Italy into two would be worse long term for both halfs. You have the same talk in US, that California and New York pay all the taxes and carry on their back other "unproductive" states.
  - Udik 8y ago
    > at the same time, a bigger country is always better Why so? And for whom, exactly? Do you think the US would fare better overall if they joined with southern countries like Mexico, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Venezuela and Colombia? Also, Italy is inside the EU. I'm not sure that inside a supra-national entity as the EU the reasons for building bigger nation-states- reasons that were surely valid in the 19th century- still stand.
yulaow 8y ago
Northen regions of Italy have a GDP often of double+ the value of that of Southern regions See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Italian_regions_by_GDP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Italian_regions_by_GDP
- adventured 8y ago
  You see wide variances in most every country. In Scandinavia, the population centers are drastically wealthier, with far higher GDP per capitas, than the rural areas. In the US, New York and Massachusetts have 2x the GDP per capita of Mississippi (or, eg Connecticut has a 70% higher GDP per capita than Arizona; and that's despite Arizona's GDP per capita being as high as Germany) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per_capita#Current https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per...
  - TulliusCicero 8y ago
    That makes Germany sound bad, but factor in PPP and hours worked and it's pretty comparable to the US overall.
setgree 8y ago
Re: differences between Northern and Southern Italy: Robert Putnam's 'Making Democracy Work' covers differences between the regions in great detail. I read it three years ago so I can't give a better summary than its wikipedia page [0]: "Around 1000 A.D. Northern Italy and Central Italy had a more active civil society,[2] with many citizens taking part in politics and social gatherings in their communities. Northern-Central Italians had a mutual trust for their fellow citizen, governing horizontally. Politics was less hierarchical in their region. Southern Italy, however, was very different from its Northern-Central counterpart; a group of Norman Mercenaries created order in the area. The governing structure was much more vertical: the peasants were controlled by the knights and the knights were controlled by the kings. Northern and Central Italy created a democratic-type system for their citizens. Conversely, Southern Italy created a feudal and autocratic system of governing. Putnam concludes that these long-standing differences still help to explain North-South differences in governance, many centuries later...The civic nature of Northern Italy and Central Italy dating back to medieval times has caused the region to be prosperous in modern times. Southern Italy, however, with its more feudal nature in medieval times has caused the region to be the origin of the Mafia and has created a less successful region. The Mafia's hierarchical structure is very similar to Southern Italy's feudal roots, according to Putnam." [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_Democracy_Work https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_Democracy_Work
- pmontra 8y ago
  Add the unification process to that, which was in part welcomed by people and in part forced by an army from the North. It was like when two companies merge: the people from the company that leads the merge end up in better positions than the ones from the weaker company. The South kind of lost a war and perhaps they didn't realize it, even now.

tluyben2 8y ago

Same with Spain.