17 ms·

I am a huge fan of Apple's products and never understood the fuss when the new Pro Keyboard attracted bad press, reading it on my old, robust pre-2015 era Macbo

I am a huge fan of Apple's products and never understood the fuss when the new Pro Keyboard attracted bad press, reading it on my old, robust pre-2015 era Macbook. Until now. I got the new one at my job three months back. And, here I am, still struggling with and super annoyed with the missed keystrokes (the buttons are so thin/don't press properly), the almost non-existent 'Enter' keys (seriously, who messes with the Enter keys! ), the useless touchbar. I look like a klutz when I have to show code/artefacts to someone because I am always mistyping or closing windows. Additionally, the touchbar led me to one heart-stopping evening of infinite restarts[1]. I am terribly disappointed that they released such a shoddy product, especially since it's used as a workhorse by thousands of developers world-wide. 1. https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8189417 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8189417 EDIT: Grammar errors

ataturk 8y ago
It's funny this story popped up because I was in the shower this morning getting ready to go to work and was thinking about how Apple really needs a stick save in their computer line. I can't fathom how Apple could be so out of touch with its computer user base to fail to realize how important these computers are to creative people and what it means when quality suffers and "cheapening" takes place. And for goodness sake, Apple, expensive computers need to be repairable! Not just board swaps, but repairable! And no more stupid dongles. And a decent Mini. And a superb desktop box. They need to get rid of Tim Cook if he can't steer the company in the right direction. The cost-cutting has been absurd!
WillPostForFood 8y ago
*Return key
plaidfuji 8y ago
In addition to all of these valid complaints, it's also loud!
- virtuabhi 8y ago
  So true. Earlier in meetings we can go about silently browsing or replying to emails. But now the keyboard is so loud that we have to apologize to the speaker!
  - pc86 8y ago
    Or the alternative, paying attention.
    - TomVDB 8y ago
      You’re making the bold assumption that there is anything being said that is worth paying attention to.
      - pc86 8y ago
        Then decline the meeting. Unless you're a very junior developer or a brand new employee (and probably don't have the necessary experience or context, respectively, to determine whether or not you need to pay attention) you probably have the right to decline meeting invites.
    - fragmede 8y ago
      It's not like anyone might want to take notes or something.
      - pc86 8y ago
        > Earlier in meetings we can go about silently browsing or replying to emails. The complaint was not about taking notes, it was about being unable to ignore the speaker and reply to emails during a meeting.
    - yellowapple 8y ago
      If the meeting was worthwhile, we wouldn't feel the need to check emails during said meeting ;)
ericcholis 8y ago
Each one of these concerns is making me clutch to my early Macbook Air. I'm terrified to upgrade. In fact, a colleague recently purchased a Macbook Pro and I steered them clear of the touchbar.
- xuki 8y ago
  The 11 inches MBA is the best laptop for me. If they just upgrade the processor to the latest gen, and the screen to retina I'd upgrade to that in a heart beat.
  - drewr 8y ago
    Clinging to my 11" MBA (2014) as well. 4-core, perfect size, indestructible. Totally agree that if they would make any modest improvements just to keep it current (proc, mem, wifi, etc.) I would refresh every year or two. I don't want the newer MacBooks with half the processor, no magsafe, and bad keyboard.
    - bluedino 8y ago
      2-core, 4-thread If they updated the screeen on the 11” it would be perfect. The 12” Retina screen is such a huge improvement over the 1366x768 screen
  - tim333 8y ago
    I like those too and just bought a second one (2015 model) for the girlfriend. It seems a shame that they stopped making them. I guess maybe it was too much competition for the more expensive, usb2-less Macbook.
- zephyrfalcon 8y ago
  The (later) MacBook Air keyboard has similar problems (to the ones described in the article). My previous MBA had keys that stopped working after a year. And you cannot easily replace the keys without breaking them. :(
apexe 8y ago
I am in the same boat. Received one at work and can not stand the keyboard. I requested an older model, but they are no longer providing them. It might seem dramatic, but I spend my days typing and I need my keyboard to not get in my way. I have resorted to bringing a USB keyboard into work with me.
- Pigo 8y ago
  I have to know if this story is gaining traction because of the Joe Rogan podcast. Did you see his hour long rant on abandoning Apple because of this yesterday? Or is everyone simultaneously reaching this same conclusion? He was very much a kool-aid drinker, but also a writer, so the keyboard is apparently a huge deal to him. I've basically never owned an Apple product so I'm just watching this from an outsiders perspective.
  - jasonellis 8y ago
    People have been complaining about the shallowness and lack of travel of the new keyboard since it came out on the new MacBook, but it's really been an issue once professionals were forced into it on their MacBook Pros. As far as the fatal design flaw, the earliest occurrence I know of bringing it out into the open is when Casey Johnston wrote about it for The Outline in October of last year: https://theoutline.com/post/2402/the-new-macbook-keyboard-is-ruining-my-life?zd=1&zi=upxf7sl3 https://theoutline.com/post/2402/the-new-macbook-keyboard-is... Edit to add: Casey championing this issue is mentioned in the originally linked article.
    - Pigo 8y ago
      So this has been going on for some time, I see. It just seemed like a coincidence that he was railing on it for an hour and then I see this today. His shows get like 5 million views, so it seems probable he could steer a conversation.
  - mediocrejoker 8y ago
    Do you know which episode this was?
driverdan 8y ago
I have the same issue with missed keystrokes. I estimate at least 5% of what I type has to be fixed.
protonimitate 8y ago
Does anyone have any insight into why Apple's QA took a turn for the worse over the past couple years? Buggy IOS/OS releases and now the hardware issues... I always equated Apple with quality and consistency (along with price), but now I can't really see how the price is justified with the issues they have been having.
- inetknght 8y ago
  Try having a QA department keep up with bugs when the culture changes to move fast and break things
- cptskippy 8y ago
  They no longer have Steve Jobs Quality Control? He was the type of person to play with something for 5 minutes and say "yeah... no" or to eagerly take something he liked and abuse the hell out of it for 24 hours then come back with a laundry list of improvements. He was a jerk and he cared deeply about user experience. In his absence you have what exactly? Tim Cook lacks vision, if you want your mountain moved to Pluto he'll have it there by Tuesday but he'll never stop and ask "why?" Jon Ive ascended from above to bless us with the word "chamfer" while carpenters and machinists world wide rolled their eyes in unison, his focus is purely on aesthetic.
  - ender89 8y ago
    It's more like Steve Jobs was such an uncompromising asshole that he would rather throw a substandard product in the garbage than put out something he considered lesser. He didn't have vision, nothing he "made" was revolutionary at all, and he didn't make anything after the NeXT. Steve Jobs was amazing at two things: getting in on the ground floor (the iphone came out so quickly after the first all touch screen smartphone that no one even remembers the original) and making sure that what they did put out either worked or didn't see the light of day. I remember the early android competitors (notably Motorola's droid) suffering from touchscreens that failed to track accurately (https://www.wired.com/2010/03/touchscreens-smartphones/ https://www.wired.com/2010/03/touchscreens-smartphones/) compared to the near perfect performance of the iPhone, its the sort of thing that Steve Jobs would have insisted on.
symfoniq 8y ago
Same boat. Against my better judgement, I bought a 2017 MacBook Pro about 6 months ago to make it easier to work with a client. I sold it this week at a big loss. Between the terrible keyboard, the useless Touch Bar, and the dongle hell, and general hardware flakiness, this was the worst laptop I've ever owned, Apple or otherwise (and I've owned almost every Apple laptop generation since the PowerBook G3). Good riddance.
- fhood 8y ago
  Literally praying that they fix this crap in the next update. My mbp is getting on in years, and if they don't do something I'm going to move to linux for my next machine.
  - sanderjd 8y ago
    Maybe this is a market opportunity for somebody to build a laptop with high end components (monitor, keyboard, touchpad) running a super-duper-well-integrated linux.
    - blackaspen 8y ago
      I believe you're looking for the XPS13 that comes with Ubuntu.
      - sanderjd 8y ago
        I've heard that, but I'm skeptical: does Dell maintain the integration, or do they just install Ubuntu on it? If I seem to have a problem with the integration between the installed touchpad, who do I go to? The Ubuntu forums, or Dell support?
        nickflood 8y ago
        They support the integration. Dell support will support it and if something is not working it will be covered by warranty the same way Windows is.
hliyan 8y ago
Earlier this year, I returned my brand new MacBook Pro and asked for my old 2016 MacBook Pro back. I'm a touch typist and I just don't get enough feedback from the new keyboard to be sure I pressed a key. It actually slowed down my typing. And the lack of and ESC and function keys means that I just can't develop on it anymore. I'm still happily using my 2.5 year-old MacBook Pro.
- CASHforGOLD 8y ago
  I also find that I accidentally, slightly hit the touchbar whenever I type on it and all my windows expand. Incredibly annoying. Not to mention the awkward placement of the escape button without any haptic feedback.
PopsiclePete 8y ago
I used to be an Apple fanboy when they were the only option in town for a usable UNIX laptop. Which, quite honestly, hasn't been the cause for a long time. I love my Dell XPS Dev. Edition (9350). All stock intel hardware, everything works (except the track-pad touch detection, can be flaky sometimes) and Manjaro Linux absolutely flies on it. The build quality of the laptop is outstanding. The only thing that I'm not in love with is the webcam placement, but not a deal-breaker. It cost me $999 2 years ago and feels as snappy as my 2015 top-of-the-line Macbook Pro that I use at work. I'm not saying it's better than the Apple/OS X combo in every way, but it's a great overall machine and Linux doesn't suck on laptops anymore. There's no need to put up with Apple selling you 2016 hardware at 2018 prices and an OS that isn't that special anymore.
kennxfl 8y ago
Apple products are overrated. Their selling point is security and ease of use but we all know you that a computer cannot protect you from breaches. As for ease of use, most devices nowadays are pretty intuitive. Why would anyone buy a low performance laptop for thousands of dollars, additional dongles and external keyboards when you can get a lightweight MSI laptop that's far superior in every single way for so much less?

ataturk 8y ago

It's funny this story popped up because I was in the shower this morning getting ready to go to work and was thinking about how Apple really needs a stick save in their computer line. I can't fathom how Apple could be so out of touch with its computer user base to fail to realize how important these computers are to creative people and what it means when quality suffers and "cheapening" takes place. And for goodness sake, Apple, expensive computers need to be repairable! Not just board swaps, but repairable! And no more stupid dongles. And a decent Mini. And a superb desktop box. They need to get rid of Tim Cook if he can't steer the company in the right direction. The cost-cutting has been absurd!

WillPostForFood 8y ago

*Return key

plaidfuji 8y ago

In addition to all of these valid complaints, it's also loud!

virtuabhi 8y ago
So true. Earlier in meetings we can go about silently browsing or replying to emails. But now the keyboard is so loud that we have to apologize to the speaker!
- pc86 8y ago
  Or the alternative, paying attention.
  - TomVDB 8y ago
    You’re making the bold assumption that there is anything being said that is worth paying attention to.
    - pc86 8y ago
      Then decline the meeting. Unless you're a very junior developer or a brand new employee (and probably don't have the necessary experience or context, respectively, to determine whether or not you need to pay attention) you probably have the right to decline meeting invites.
  - fragmede 8y ago
    It's not like anyone might want to take notes or something.
    - pc86 8y ago
      > Earlier in meetings we can go about silently browsing or replying to emails. The complaint was not about taking notes, it was about being unable to ignore the speaker and reply to emails during a meeting.
  - yellowapple 8y ago
    If the meeting was worthwhile, we wouldn't feel the need to check emails during said meeting ;)

ericcholis 8y ago

Each one of these concerns is making me clutch to my early Macbook Air. I'm terrified to upgrade. In fact, a colleague recently purchased a Macbook Pro and I steered them clear of the touchbar.

xuki 8y ago
The 11 inches MBA is the best laptop for me. If they just upgrade the processor to the latest gen, and the screen to retina I'd upgrade to that in a heart beat.
- drewr 8y ago
  Clinging to my 11" MBA (2014) as well. 4-core, perfect size, indestructible. Totally agree that if they would make any modest improvements just to keep it current (proc, mem, wifi, etc.) I would refresh every year or two. I don't want the newer MacBooks with half the processor, no magsafe, and bad keyboard.
  - bluedino 8y ago
    2-core, 4-thread If they updated the screeen on the 11” it would be perfect. The 12” Retina screen is such a huge improvement over the 1366x768 screen
- tim333 8y ago
  I like those too and just bought a second one (2015 model) for the girlfriend. It seems a shame that they stopped making them. I guess maybe it was too much competition for the more expensive, usb2-less Macbook.
zephyrfalcon 8y ago
The (later) MacBook Air keyboard has similar problems (to the ones described in the article). My previous MBA had keys that stopped working after a year. And you cannot easily replace the keys without breaking them. :(

apexe 8y ago

I am in the same boat. Received one at work and can not stand the keyboard. I requested an older model, but they are no longer providing them. It might seem dramatic, but I spend my days typing and I need my keyboard to not get in my way. I have resorted to bringing a USB keyboard into work with me.

Pigo 8y ago
I have to know if this story is gaining traction because of the Joe Rogan podcast. Did you see his hour long rant on abandoning Apple because of this yesterday? Or is everyone simultaneously reaching this same conclusion? He was very much a kool-aid drinker, but also a writer, so the keyboard is apparently a huge deal to him. I've basically never owned an Apple product so I'm just watching this from an outsiders perspective.
- jasonellis 8y ago
  People have been complaining about the shallowness and lack of travel of the new keyboard since it came out on the new MacBook, but it's really been an issue once professionals were forced into it on their MacBook Pros. As far as the fatal design flaw, the earliest occurrence I know of bringing it out into the open is when Casey Johnston wrote about it for The Outline in October of last year: https://theoutline.com/post/2402/the-new-macbook-keyboard-is-ruining-my-life?zd=1&zi=upxf7sl3 https://theoutline.com/post/2402/the-new-macbook-keyboard-is... Edit to add: Casey championing this issue is mentioned in the originally linked article.
  - Pigo 8y ago
    So this has been going on for some time, I see. It just seemed like a coincidence that he was railing on it for an hour and then I see this today. His shows get like 5 million views, so it seems probable he could steer a conversation.
- mediocrejoker 8y ago
  Do you know which episode this was?

driverdan 8y ago

I have the same issue with missed keystrokes. I estimate at least 5% of what I type has to be fixed.

protonimitate 8y ago

Does anyone have any insight into why Apple's QA took a turn for the worse over the past couple years? Buggy IOS/OS releases and now the hardware issues... I always equated Apple with quality and consistency (along with price), but now I can't really see how the price is justified with the issues they have been having.

inetknght 8y ago
Try having a QA department keep up with bugs when the culture changes to move fast and break things
cptskippy 8y ago
They no longer have Steve Jobs Quality Control? He was the type of person to play with something for 5 minutes and say "yeah... no" or to eagerly take something he liked and abuse the hell out of it for 24 hours then come back with a laundry list of improvements. He was a jerk and he cared deeply about user experience. In his absence you have what exactly? Tim Cook lacks vision, if you want your mountain moved to Pluto he'll have it there by Tuesday but he'll never stop and ask "why?" Jon Ive ascended from above to bless us with the word "chamfer" while carpenters and machinists world wide rolled their eyes in unison, his focus is purely on aesthetic.
- ender89 8y ago
  It's more like Steve Jobs was such an uncompromising asshole that he would rather throw a substandard product in the garbage than put out something he considered lesser. He didn't have vision, nothing he "made" was revolutionary at all, and he didn't make anything after the NeXT. Steve Jobs was amazing at two things: getting in on the ground floor (the iphone came out so quickly after the first all touch screen smartphone that no one even remembers the original) and making sure that what they did put out either worked or didn't see the light of day. I remember the early android competitors (notably Motorola's droid) suffering from touchscreens that failed to track accurately (https://www.wired.com/2010/03/touchscreens-smartphones/ https://www.wired.com/2010/03/touchscreens-smartphones/) compared to the near perfect performance of the iPhone, its the sort of thing that Steve Jobs would have insisted on.

symfoniq 8y ago

Same boat. Against my better judgement, I bought a 2017 MacBook Pro about 6 months ago to make it easier to work with a client. I sold it this week at a big loss. Between the terrible keyboard, the useless Touch Bar, and the dongle hell, and general hardware flakiness, this was the worst laptop I've ever owned, Apple or otherwise (and I've owned almost every Apple laptop generation since the PowerBook G3). Good riddance.

fhood 8y ago
Literally praying that they fix this crap in the next update. My mbp is getting on in years, and if they don't do something I'm going to move to linux for my next machine.
- sanderjd 8y ago
  Maybe this is a market opportunity for somebody to build a laptop with high end components (monitor, keyboard, touchpad) running a super-duper-well-integrated linux.
  - blackaspen 8y ago
    I believe you're looking for the XPS13 that comes with Ubuntu.
    - sanderjd 8y ago
      I've heard that, but I'm skeptical: does Dell maintain the integration, or do they just install Ubuntu on it? If I seem to have a problem with the integration between the installed touchpad, who do I go to? The Ubuntu forums, or Dell support?
      - nickflood 8y ago
        They support the integration. Dell support will support it and if something is not working it will be covered by warranty the same way Windows is.

hliyan 8y ago

Earlier this year, I returned my brand new MacBook Pro and asked for my old 2016 MacBook Pro back. I'm a touch typist and I just don't get enough feedback from the new keyboard to be sure I pressed a key. It actually slowed down my typing. And the lack of and ESC and function keys means that I just can't develop on it anymore. I'm still happily using my 2.5 year-old MacBook Pro.

CASHforGOLD 8y ago
I also find that I accidentally, slightly hit the touchbar whenever I type on it and all my windows expand. Incredibly annoying. Not to mention the awkward placement of the escape button without any haptic feedback.

PopsiclePete 8y ago

I used to be an Apple fanboy when they were the only option in town for a usable UNIX laptop. Which, quite honestly, hasn't been the cause for a long time. I love my Dell XPS Dev. Edition (9350). All stock intel hardware, everything works (except the track-pad touch detection, can be flaky sometimes) and Manjaro Linux absolutely flies on it. The build quality of the laptop is outstanding. The only thing that I'm not in love with is the webcam placement, but not a deal-breaker. It cost me $999 2 years ago and feels as snappy as my 2015 top-of-the-line Macbook Pro that I use at work. I'm not saying it's better than the Apple/OS X combo in every way, but it's a great overall machine and Linux doesn't suck on laptops anymore. There's no need to put up with Apple selling you 2016 hardware at 2018 prices and an OS that isn't that special anymore.

kennxfl 8y ago

Apple products are overrated. Their selling point is security and ease of use but we all know you that a computer cannot protect you from breaches. As for ease of use, most devices nowadays are pretty intuitive. Why would anyone buy a low performance laptop for thousands of dollars, additional dongles and external keyboards when you can get a lightweight MSI laptop that's far superior in every single way for so much less?