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Ironically for a long time (and to a lesser degree even now) European politicians constantly tried to emulate aspects of the American System. This is true on th

Ironically for a long time (and to a lesser degree even now) European politicians constantly tried to emulate aspects of the American System. This is true on the macro political scale with a „United States of Europe“ being one ultimate goal for some politicians, but also when it comes to reform higher education (the Bologna reforms) and other policies. Yet even the most affluent parts of the US (east coast around Boston, Martha’s Vineyard etc.) have in my view never compared favorably to many areas in Europe. It is really unfortunate that Europeans don’t have a sense of Manifest Destiny and Potential for the whole of Europe but instead fall back to nationalism, whenever a challenge like the financial crisis or refugee crisis emerges.

krageon 8y ago
It's not unfortunate, it's what makes Europe Europe. I'd say that if you changed the countries in Europe to be more like American states, you'd lose one of the factors that makes it the way it is today. That is leaving aside the very loaded term "Manifest Destiny", which I originally thought was something people only used ironically. Perhaps I misread your text?
watwut 8y ago
Wasn't Manifest Destiny all about territorial expansion? Cause European countries did the expansion thing and it gave us WWI and WWII. So it is kinda good they stopped.
- Kroniker 8y ago
  Manifest Destiny was the spirit of the times during western expansion. The West was considered "free and empty" (Let's ignore the natives), and it was America's destiny to control the continent from coast to coast. So not as much about expanding, and more about growing in to what room "was available", I think.
  - watwut 8y ago
    That is likely just changing one kind of radical nationalism for another. Had European union decided that we are the thing in the Manifest Destiny meaning, nearby places would cease to count as really occupied too.
- orbifold 8y ago
  Yeah, Hitler explicitly referenced US imperialism I believe, when he talked about "Lebensraum" in the East. He had a similar racist rationale, why it would be ok to subjugate the slavs. This is not what I meant though. If Europeans as a whole came to realise the tremendous opportunity that a shared European continent means in terms of shared wealth and prosperity, I don't think anyone in their right mind would want to revert to nationalism, especially when they are from tiny countries like Belgium or the Netherlands. I also believe this is how most young Europeans think, judging by my encounters with Greek, Italian and Spanish students in Germany. There is no need to conquer anyone, if it is mutually beneficial to cooperate and compete with external forces instead, such as the US and China.
- Graham24 8y ago
  Don't forget Old Boney.
Ntrails 8y ago
> It is really unfortunate that Europeans don’t have a sense of Manifest Destiny and Potential for the whole of Europe but instead fall back to nationalism, whenever a challenge like the financial crisis or refugee crisis emerges. It's not that people fall back to nationalism - it's where we all started. It's just that for a perceived mutual good politicians say "let's go for it". The reality is that Europe can only really work long term with much closer political/fiscal integration. Every politician knows that, but most have made a career of not mentioning the things that people don't want to hear. As for the European dream - that's hard. The shared cultural capital isn't there, and it cannot be imposed from above.
- orbifold 8y ago
  There is a lot of shared cultural capital, you just have to visit the various art museums, you are just as likely to find French, Dutch and Spanish painters in Vienna as you are in Paris. The old European elites all shared a common culture, references to Roman and Greek mythology, Christian faith, a common style of literature etc. For a long time they even had a common language, Latin, later on everyone learned at least French and sometimes German and English. It also has clearly identifiable cultural centres, for the most part the capitals of the historically dominant military and political powers Vienna, Paris, Berlin etc. Nationalism is only a very brief phase compared to the long rule in Europe of a few dynasties (Habsburg in most of Central Europe, Spain, Italy and Low Countries). Personally I don't think one necessarily needs deeper fiscal and political integration (although the Euro architecture is clearly broken, but might be fixed in other ways), just better messaging and a shared European identity.
sandworm101 8y ago
>>> European politicians constantly tried to emulate aspects of the American System. Not today's system. The system they wanted to emulate was that of the 50s/60s/70s, which was a socialist utopia compared to the America of today. No European politician today would suggest denying healthcare to sick children, or a return to debtors prisons. Those things are happening. Nevada is about to elect a literal pimp, a man who proudly operates several brothels, as a state representative. Things are very different today. Europe is not trying to emulate the US anymore.
- oh_sigh 8y ago
  What's wrong with operating legal brothels? It sounds like you can't shake your puritanical American view of sec if you think legal sex workers are bad.
  - sandworm101 8y ago
    Nothing per se. But you just don't see many politicians promote such backgrounds as a plus. The guy's book is called "The Art of the Pimp", his really show "cathouse". His attitude to women and employees is horrible. This guy is is just plain sleazy. But he won the republican primary in a red state. He will win.
bobthechef 8y ago
You are operating within a very simplistic -- and at this point outdated -- narrative of both Europe and the challenges facing the continent. Also, the comparison between Europe and the United States is a persistent but very wrong-headed one. The two are not comparable. States are not like countries made up of people with much that divides them, like culture, values, language, history, geopolitical interests, etc. The financial crisis was a reality check, history crashing the party, that put into stark contrast the forces, tensions, and interests that make up Europe but were simmering under a veneer of wishful thinking and cynical neocolonialism masquerading as fraternité. Surely, European cooperation of some kind makes sense, if only to secure a basic peace and to avert war. But the dream of a federal Europe is dead, and frankly, was stillborn. It won't happen. Not only is there no path to that happening, not only has nothing like that ever happened, but it doesn't even make sense. Go ahead. Tell me what it means to be "European". You can't. There's no such thing. It can't compete with being French, German, Polish, Italian, etc. Worse, you can't even join it. The United States started as a British colonial possession (mostly) that formed the nucleus of the country. People moving to the US were joining a society that had already existed, even if loosely. There is no "European" nucleus and you couldn't impose it on Europe even if it wasn't a vacuous idea. Every attempt to unify Europe failed. It was always and can only be an imperialist endeavor. Right now, it's largely a German play. Look at Merkel. She has no position in the EU and yet is treated as if she had. That's not a coincidence. Nobody wants to be part of some crypto-German empire. Those who do move to Germany. This is why we're seeing Central/European European coalescing into a web of alliances based on the historical and present need to form a cohesive bloc able to repel both German dominance and Russian aggression. It is a geopolitical necessity and an act of self-preservation. They don't want to vegetate in a state of permanent neocolonial mediocrity. They didn't throw off the yoke of Russian dominance just to become a second-class corral of cheap labor and an economic dumping ground for Germany and other Western countries. They don't want to be what Piketty calls "foreign-owned countries". A federal Europe wouldn't magically dissolve the power relations in Europe, it would formalize this dominance under the guise of unity, cooperation, and some "new European man" nonsense. Gee, where have we heard that farce before. A better solution, grounded in the hard facts of reality and not insipid bromides, is to respect national sovereignty and to maintain a forum or forums for fostering, organically, European cooperation and the resolution of disputes. The US will play an important role in maintaining the geopolitical balance. P.S. Manifest destiny make no sense in relation to Europe, and it is a dubious concept anyway.

krageon 8y ago

It's not unfortunate, it's what makes Europe Europe. I'd say that if you changed the countries in Europe to be more like American states, you'd lose one of the factors that makes it the way it is today. That is leaving aside the very loaded term "Manifest Destiny", which I originally thought was something people only used ironically. Perhaps I misread your text?

watwut 8y ago

Wasn't Manifest Destiny all about territorial expansion? Cause European countries did the expansion thing and it gave us WWI and WWII. So it is kinda good they stopped.

Kroniker 8y ago
Manifest Destiny was the spirit of the times during western expansion. The West was considered "free and empty" (Let's ignore the natives), and it was America's destiny to control the continent from coast to coast. So not as much about expanding, and more about growing in to what room "was available", I think.
- watwut 8y ago
  That is likely just changing one kind of radical nationalism for another. Had European union decided that we are the thing in the Manifest Destiny meaning, nearby places would cease to count as really occupied too.
orbifold 8y ago
Yeah, Hitler explicitly referenced US imperialism I believe, when he talked about "Lebensraum" in the East. He had a similar racist rationale, why it would be ok to subjugate the slavs. This is not what I meant though. If Europeans as a whole came to realise the tremendous opportunity that a shared European continent means in terms of shared wealth and prosperity, I don't think anyone in their right mind would want to revert to nationalism, especially when they are from tiny countries like Belgium or the Netherlands. I also believe this is how most young Europeans think, judging by my encounters with Greek, Italian and Spanish students in Germany. There is no need to conquer anyone, if it is mutually beneficial to cooperate and compete with external forces instead, such as the US and China.
Graham24 8y ago
Don't forget Old Boney.

Ntrails 8y ago

> It is really unfortunate that Europeans don’t have a sense of Manifest Destiny and Potential for the whole of Europe but instead fall back to nationalism, whenever a challenge like the financial crisis or refugee crisis emerges. It's not that people fall back to nationalism - it's where we all started. It's just that for a perceived mutual good politicians say "let's go for it". The reality is that Europe can only really work long term with much closer political/fiscal integration. Every politician knows that, but most have made a career of not mentioning the things that people don't want to hear. As for the European dream - that's hard. The shared cultural capital isn't there, and it cannot be imposed from above.

orbifold 8y ago
There is a lot of shared cultural capital, you just have to visit the various art museums, you are just as likely to find French, Dutch and Spanish painters in Vienna as you are in Paris. The old European elites all shared a common culture, references to Roman and Greek mythology, Christian faith, a common style of literature etc. For a long time they even had a common language, Latin, later on everyone learned at least French and sometimes German and English. It also has clearly identifiable cultural centres, for the most part the capitals of the historically dominant military and political powers Vienna, Paris, Berlin etc. Nationalism is only a very brief phase compared to the long rule in Europe of a few dynasties (Habsburg in most of Central Europe, Spain, Italy and Low Countries). Personally I don't think one necessarily needs deeper fiscal and political integration (although the Euro architecture is clearly broken, but might be fixed in other ways), just better messaging and a shared European identity.

sandworm101 8y ago

>>> European politicians constantly tried to emulate aspects of the American System. Not today's system. The system they wanted to emulate was that of the 50s/60s/70s, which was a socialist utopia compared to the America of today. No European politician today would suggest denying healthcare to sick children, or a return to debtors prisons. Those things are happening. Nevada is about to elect a literal pimp, a man who proudly operates several brothels, as a state representative. Things are very different today. Europe is not trying to emulate the US anymore.

oh_sigh 8y ago
What's wrong with operating legal brothels? It sounds like you can't shake your puritanical American view of sec if you think legal sex workers are bad.
- sandworm101 8y ago
  Nothing per se. But you just don't see many politicians promote such backgrounds as a plus. The guy's book is called "The Art of the Pimp", his really show "cathouse". His attitude to women and employees is horrible. This guy is is just plain sleazy. But he won the republican primary in a red state. He will win.

bobthechef 8y ago

You are operating within a very simplistic -- and at this point outdated -- narrative of both Europe and the challenges facing the continent. Also, the comparison between Europe and the United States is a persistent but very wrong-headed one. The two are not comparable. States are not like countries made up of people with much that divides them, like culture, values, language, history, geopolitical interests, etc. The financial crisis was a reality check, history crashing the party, that put into stark contrast the forces, tensions, and interests that make up Europe but were simmering under a veneer of wishful thinking and cynical neocolonialism masquerading as fraternité. Surely, European cooperation of some kind makes sense, if only to secure a basic peace and to avert war. But the dream of a federal Europe is dead, and frankly, was stillborn. It won't happen. Not only is there no path to that happening, not only has nothing like that ever happened, but it doesn't even make sense. Go ahead. Tell me what it means to be "European". You can't. There's no such thing. It can't compete with being French, German, Polish, Italian, etc. Worse, you can't even join it. The United States started as a British colonial possession (mostly) that formed the nucleus of the country. People moving to the US were joining a society that had already existed, even if loosely. There is no "European" nucleus and you couldn't impose it on Europe even if it wasn't a vacuous idea. Every attempt to unify Europe failed. It was always and can only be an imperialist endeavor. Right now, it's largely a German play. Look at Merkel. She has no position in the EU and yet is treated as if she had. That's not a coincidence. Nobody wants to be part of some crypto-German empire. Those who do move to Germany. This is why we're seeing Central/European European coalescing into a web of alliances based on the historical and present need to form a cohesive bloc able to repel both German dominance and Russian aggression. It is a geopolitical necessity and an act of self-preservation. They don't want to vegetate in a state of permanent neocolonial mediocrity. They didn't throw off the yoke of Russian dominance just to become a second-class corral of cheap labor and an economic dumping ground for Germany and other Western countries. They don't want to be what Piketty calls "foreign-owned countries". A federal Europe wouldn't magically dissolve the power relations in Europe, it would formalize this dominance under the guise of unity, cooperation, and some "new European man" nonsense. Gee, where have we heard that farce before. A better solution, grounded in the hard facts of reality and not insipid bromides, is to respect national sovereignty and to maintain a forum or forums for fostering, organically, European cooperation and the resolution of disputes. The US will play an important role in maintaining the geopolitical balance. P.S. Manifest destiny make no sense in relation to Europe, and it is a dubious concept anyway.