4 ms·

remind me again - what is the purpose of huge (and powerful and expensive) building permit departments and long waits for a permit?

JeffL 16y ago
I'm pretty sure it's so we can feel like we're protecting the children.
patrickgzill 16y ago
A P.E. must have signed off on this; maybe he should be disciplined?
- VladRussian 16y ago
  Freud's dream of any engineer : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Garin_Death_Ray http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Garin_Death_Ray
- brudgers 16y ago
  The architect of record is ultimately responsible for the building configuration (someone in Rafael Vinloy's office). Since there appears to be nothing negligent or illegal, it is unlikely that there will be any sort of disciplinary charge. There might be some sort of claim by the owner. These are typically first handled by mediation and binding arbitration if necessary. It's just a mistake.
imgabe 16y ago
Building codes are reactionary, not proactive. Almost every code is there because at some point there was a problem in the past, usually something involving one or more deaths due to a fire or collapse that could have been prevented. Someone's drink cup melting is not really a concern for the permit authorities.
- VladRussian 16y ago
  yep. Death due to non low-flush toilets installed.
  - noonespecial 16y ago
    If you don't think that how buildings use water isn't going to be ridiculously important in the next hundred years of human expansion, you've got some reading to do. Lives might actually be at stake. Livelihoods almost certainly will.
    - VladRussian 16y ago
      how can one be that brainwashed. Doesn't it seem strange to you that instead of real pricing on water and energy (that would trigger efficiency improve across the board) there is that hysterical propaganda of individual conservation despite the fact that individual consumption pales in comparison to Big Agriculture&Industry? I just hear the sound of your brain being flip-flopped by the propaganda : paper to plastic -> saving trees plastic to paper -> saving the planet and as a result your attention being diverted from the real causes of the problem. "Lives might actually be at stake. Livelihoods almost certainly will." You're absolutely right. WW III, if it happens, will be about global enforcing of cap&trade once the countries most severely affected by the global warming (incl. its consequences like harsh weather and water shortage) organize together and amass enough military power. Low-flush and biking to work, while feeding your ego with warm and fuzzy feeling that you're personally saving the planet, don't mean anything at that scale.
    - Dylan16807 16y ago
      Desalination costs well under a penny per gallon. There's no shortage of water if you're willing to pay a small fee.
      - VladRussian 16y ago
        Going that way will expose the market (ie. real) price of water and thus will significantly affect largest (and politically connected) consumers - Agriculture and Industry - kicking them off the nice ride they've been having on subsidized water _stolen_ from the Nature.
- mechanical_fish 16y ago
  A friend of the family just passed away, in her eighties. In her youth, she happened to be across the street during the following famous incident, after which she tried to help the injured: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoanut_Grove_fire http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoanut_Grove_fire As is common in panic situations, many patrons attempted to exit through the main entrance, the same way they had come in. However, the building's main entrance was a single revolving door, immediately rendered useless as the panicked crowd scrambled for safety. Bodies piled up behind both sides of the revolving door, jamming it to the extent that firefighters had to dismantle it in order to get inside. Other avenues of escape were similarly useless: side doors had been bolted shut to prevent people from leaving without paying their bills. A plate glass window, which could have been smashed for escape, was instead boarded up and unusable as an emergency exit. Other unlocked doors, like the ones in the Broadway Lounge, opened inwards, rendering them useless against the crush of people trying to escape. Bartender Daniel Weiss and entertainer Goody Goodelle both survived in the Melody Lounge; by dousing a cloth napkin with a pitcher of water and breathing through it, Weiss was able to escape by crawling through the kitchen and other subfloor areas, while Goodelle and several other employees were able to escape by crawling through a barred window in the kitchen. Five survived by taking refuge in a walk-in refrigerator. Fire officials later testified that, had the doors swung outwards, at least 300 lives could have been spared. Many young soldiers perished in the disaster, as well as a married couple whose wedding had taken place earlier that day. And that, boys and girls, is why we have building codes. (It's also why many professional engineers in the US and Canada take an oath, like doctors. Proper engineering is a serious business. Lives are at stake.)
  - brudgers 16y ago
    You are correct regarding the reasons building codes were established. However, in the US, the sort of life safety issues which contributed to loss of life in the Coconut Grove fire (improper egress and flammable finishes) are handled by architects rather than engineers. Engineering licensure requires a combination of education, testing, and work experience. I am unaware of any US jurisdiction which requires the Engineer's Oath in order to become licensed to practice engineering. The Engineer's Oath does not address life safety or the welfare of individuals. Such a commitment might be incompatible with many engineering projects for the defense industry. http://www.asce.org/Content.aspx?id=30076 http://www.asce.org/Content.aspx?id=30076

JeffL 16y ago

I'm pretty sure it's so we can feel like we're protecting the children.

patrickgzill 16y ago

A P.E. must have signed off on this; maybe he should be disciplined?

VladRussian 16y ago
Freud's dream of any engineer : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Garin_Death_Ray http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Garin_Death_Ray
brudgers 16y ago
The architect of record is ultimately responsible for the building configuration (someone in Rafael Vinloy's office). Since there appears to be nothing negligent or illegal, it is unlikely that there will be any sort of disciplinary charge. There might be some sort of claim by the owner. These are typically first handled by mediation and binding arbitration if necessary. It's just a mistake.

imgabe 16y ago

Building codes are reactionary, not proactive. Almost every code is there because at some point there was a problem in the past, usually something involving one or more deaths due to a fire or collapse that could have been prevented. Someone's drink cup melting is not really a concern for the permit authorities.

VladRussian 16y ago
yep. Death due to non low-flush toilets installed.
- noonespecial 16y ago
  If you don't think that how buildings use water isn't going to be ridiculously important in the next hundred years of human expansion, you've got some reading to do. Lives might actually be at stake. Livelihoods almost certainly will.
  - VladRussian 16y ago
    how can one be that brainwashed. Doesn't it seem strange to you that instead of real pricing on water and energy (that would trigger efficiency improve across the board) there is that hysterical propaganda of individual conservation despite the fact that individual consumption pales in comparison to Big Agriculture&Industry? I just hear the sound of your brain being flip-flopped by the propaganda : paper to plastic -> saving trees plastic to paper -> saving the planet and as a result your attention being diverted from the real causes of the problem. "Lives might actually be at stake. Livelihoods almost certainly will." You're absolutely right. WW III, if it happens, will be about global enforcing of cap&trade once the countries most severely affected by the global warming (incl. its consequences like harsh weather and water shortage) organize together and amass enough military power. Low-flush and biking to work, while feeding your ego with warm and fuzzy feeling that you're personally saving the planet, don't mean anything at that scale.
  - Dylan16807 16y ago
    Desalination costs well under a penny per gallon. There's no shortage of water if you're willing to pay a small fee.
    - VladRussian 16y ago
      Going that way will expose the market (ie. real) price of water and thus will significantly affect largest (and politically connected) consumers - Agriculture and Industry - kicking them off the nice ride they've been having on subsidized water _stolen_ from the Nature.
mechanical_fish 16y ago
A friend of the family just passed away, in her eighties. In her youth, she happened to be across the street during the following famous incident, after which she tried to help the injured: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoanut_Grove_fire http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoanut_Grove_fire As is common in panic situations, many patrons attempted to exit through the main entrance, the same way they had come in. However, the building's main entrance was a single revolving door, immediately rendered useless as the panicked crowd scrambled for safety. Bodies piled up behind both sides of the revolving door, jamming it to the extent that firefighters had to dismantle it in order to get inside. Other avenues of escape were similarly useless: side doors had been bolted shut to prevent people from leaving without paying their bills. A plate glass window, which could have been smashed for escape, was instead boarded up and unusable as an emergency exit. Other unlocked doors, like the ones in the Broadway Lounge, opened inwards, rendering them useless against the crush of people trying to escape. Bartender Daniel Weiss and entertainer Goody Goodelle both survived in the Melody Lounge; by dousing a cloth napkin with a pitcher of water and breathing through it, Weiss was able to escape by crawling through the kitchen and other subfloor areas, while Goodelle and several other employees were able to escape by crawling through a barred window in the kitchen. Five survived by taking refuge in a walk-in refrigerator. Fire officials later testified that, had the doors swung outwards, at least 300 lives could have been spared. Many young soldiers perished in the disaster, as well as a married couple whose wedding had taken place earlier that day. And that, boys and girls, is why we have building codes. (It's also why many professional engineers in the US and Canada take an oath, like doctors. Proper engineering is a serious business. Lives are at stake.)
- brudgers 16y ago
  You are correct regarding the reasons building codes were established. However, in the US, the sort of life safety issues which contributed to loss of life in the Coconut Grove fire (improper egress and flammable finishes) are handled by architects rather than engineers. Engineering licensure requires a combination of education, testing, and work experience. I am unaware of any US jurisdiction which requires the Engineer's Oath in order to become licensed to practice engineering. The Engineer's Oath does not address life safety or the welfare of individuals. Such a commitment might be incompatible with many engineering projects for the defense industry. http://www.asce.org/Content.aspx?id=30076 http://www.asce.org/Content.aspx?id=30076