6 ms·

Amtrak exploring ending Southwest Chief through service

44 points by niftich 8y ago

aaronarduino 8y ago
Wonder if this means that there is no hope for expanding the Amtrak line through OKC into Kansas. I hope they are able to expand north into more states.
ghaff 8y ago
One of these days I'd like to do one of the Amtrak long-haul Western US routes although I expect the idea is more appealing than the actual experience would be. Unfortunately, Amtrak's Northeast Corridor basically makes money that it loses in almost of its other routes. There may be a few city pairs here that may eke out a profit but not a lot.
- JKCalhoun 8y ago
  Rode Emeryville, CA to Omaha, NE. Glad I was able to take the kids on that experience while they still can.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  I used to be an Empire Builder regular. Now a regular on two other Amtrak long-distance routes. There are some spectacular views, but remember that a good portion of it happens in the dark and you end up looking at a lot of nothing. It really is an experience, as long as you go first class (sleeping berth). Some routes have events for the first class passengers that are themes with the route. Wine and cheese tastings, for example. Or miniature margarita and nachos fiestas. What I find interesting is that the level of service varies from run to run. I suspect due to staffing issues. Not everyone wants to spend a week or more away from home at a time to be a waiter.
- 394549 8y ago
  > One of these days I'd like to do one of the Amtrak long-haul Western US routes although I expect the idea is more appealing than the actual experience would be. If I had to take one of those routes again, I'd do it as a sleeper car passenger. I took the Empire Builder as regular passenger. I'm glad I tried it once, and the views in the Rockies were amazing, but 30+ hours straight in a reclining seat is a bit much to do again. I think it would have been much more enjoyable with a proper place to sleep.
  - bbunix 8y ago
    Do it in a sleeper, a very pleasant experience...
  - ghaff 8y ago
    I'd definitely go for the sleeper. I'd almost certainly do either Empire Builder or California Zephyr.
  - sndean 8y ago
    Agreed. I did the Crescent route (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crescent_(train) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crescent_(train)) once and never will again if not in a sleeper car. Looking back, I wouldn't go as far as saying it was torture (being unable to sleep), but I thought it was in the moment.
  - gomox 8y ago
    Alternate view: I did it in coach but with stops in between (so not 30+ hours at a time) and would recommend my version. One of the highlights of the trip was talking to everyone else in the train, which is bound to happen when you're in what amounts to a very long corridor for 12 hours at a time. Most youngish solo travelers seemed to be doing it this way.
  - archagon 8y ago
    Yep, went cross-country from NY to SF in coach. It's hard to get sleep; would not recommend. (But on the upside, got a $130 coupon for a future ride after a 9-hour delay!)
- dionidium 8y ago
  I've done the California Zephyr between Denver and San Francisco (at Emeryville). The actual experience was much better than I expected it to be. It's stunningly beautiful. It's pretty clear that these routes are under threat. I intend to ride as many of them as I can before they close. It's definitely worth the time.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    It's natural to wait for a point where I have more time and maybe more inclination to take less energetic trips. But you're right that long-haul Amtrak routes probably won't be around forever.
gomox 8y ago
If you like long distance trains make sure you ride the Amtraks before it's too late.
- koolba 8y ago
  Or just go to Europe.
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    Unless you mean Russia, Europe doesn't have the same kind of long-distance rail service. Remember Europe is geographically very small. And as much as it pains the anti-Americans in the audience, the United States still has the world's largest rail network. Number two is Russia, which is a distant second, followed by China. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_transport_network_size https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_tran...
    - Doctor_Fegg 8y ago
      Rail network != passenger rail network, though, which was the point of the top-level comment AIUI. If we look at patronage, US passenger miles in 2017 were 6.53bn. UK passenger miles in just one quarter were 10bn.
      - pjc50 8y ago
        We have a lot more rail commuters jammed into medium distance trains.
      - paleotrope 8y ago
        Well american trains don't go anywhere anyone wants to go to in a reasonable amount of time.
        ghaff 8y ago
        I can get from Boston to NYC in a reasonable amount of time using the train. Very competitive with air. Not so much on my next trip from Boston to San Francisco.
JohnTHaller 8y ago
Interesting how the politicians demand it be kept running and maintained yet don't talk about where the $30-$50 million in repairs to the existing track or the $55 million to install the required positive train controls safety systems will come from.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- moorhosj 8y ago
  I find it interesting that politicians increase military spending by $100 billion or we cut future revenue by $1 trillion and nobody bats an eye. Meanwhile, people hem and haw over $50 million to maintain critical infrastructure.
  - losteric 8y ago
    Rich people sell guns, poor people ride trains. Not all of them, obviously, but enough to "guide" the decisions of career politicians.
    - ghaff 8y ago
      By and large poor people ride buses or drive. Buses go a lot places trains do not and, in the Northeast, buses are far cheaper than trains. Get above about 500 miles or so and planes are often cheaper.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- vkou 8y ago
  If there was a highway bridge that needed $50 million in repairs, those same politicians wouldn't bat an eye, before signing the cheque. That is, if they didn't earmark $2 billion to replace it.
  - munk-a 8y ago
labster 8y ago
Apparently the plan is to offload management of passenger train service to the states, as this is clearly a states' rights issue. Possibly related: the current head of Amtrak is an airline guy.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  clearly a states' rights issue Some of the states have formed regional rail alliances. There are also non-profits doing good work in this area. Example: https://www.midwesthsr.org https://www.midwesthsr.org
solsticedev 8y ago
This is sad; as a Boy Scout I actually rode this train from Chicago to Raton for a trip to Philmont Scout Ranch. I know my troop and many others utilize this transportation option as flying can be expensive and inconvenient for large groups, especially when you are bringing large backpacking gear with TSA prohibited or check-only items like camping stove fuel, pocket knives, etc.
- paulie_a 8y ago
  I hate to break it to you but some of those items don't seem to be allowed on Amtrak either.
niftich 8y ago
The Southwest Chief runs between Chicago and LA, via Kansas City, Albuquerque, and Flagstaff. It approaches Wichita within 25 miles, but bypasses it to run west for ~350 miles across rural Kansas and Colorado, serving several small towns, and forming a significant transportation backbone. Thereafter, between La Junta, CO (east of Pueblo, CO) and Lamy, NM (adjacent to Santa Fe, NM), the Southwest Chief runs over track owned by BNSF that the freight railroad no longer uses. This lattermost stretch is the most troublesome section, and the topic of much of the article. BNSF has offered [1] to host this train over a different route that it actively uses -- the Southern Transcon. Using the Southern Transcon would add direct service to Wichita, Amarillo, Clovis, and Vaughn, but would bypass southwest Kansas, southeast Colorado, and northeast New Mexico. Doing so would also remove direct service from Albuquerque and put it even further from Santa Fe. If it weren't for the Albuquerque complication, this would be a pretty good route. Amtrak has, under its previous leadership, worked with the governments of Kansas, Colorado, and New Mexico, and various localities along the route to solicit funding for continuing the service over its original route. It also got some federal grants. Previous CEOs were staunchly supportive of continuing long-distance service. The new CEO, significantly less so. Representatives from these states were caught unaware by his new approach, and now those matching funds could be in question. The Southwest Chief is a notable cross-country service, but it's also the transportation backbone of southwest Kansas and southeast Colorado. In my opinion, KS and CO, together with Amtrak and BNSF, should investigate a service between eastern Kansas (e.g. Wichita or KC) and Denver, serving many of the same rural towns of both, but also the major cities of Pueblo, Colorado Springs, and Denver in Colorado. The track is owned by BNSF and is in good shape, and would provide service to new markets on a less fraught route. New Mexico should investigate a solution that works for them, which may or may not include more transportation options from Las Vegas, NM, to Santa Fe and Albuquerque, and working with Texas to explore routes towards Lubbock and Dallas. [1] https://www.codot.gov/about/southwest-chief-commission/swchief-interim-leg-sub-comm-110614-v8-final https://www.codot.gov/about/southwest-chief-commission/swchi...
- cozzyd 8y ago
  NM already has commuter rail between Alberquerque (and Santa Fe) and Belen, where the Southern Transcon reaches. In a world where Amtrak LD trains ran on time, the schedules could be adjusted for a convenient transfer making it not so bad for Albuquerque.
brianstorms 8y ago
I just rode the Southwest Chief from New Mexico to Illinois and back, last month. Had a long talk with one of the conductors while on the trip. We discussed the remarkable pattern that the Republicans follow: starve everything they don't like (or that they want to privatize so they can pocket the money), then use the subsequent difficulties and failures and budget shortfalls of the starved agency as proof that the agency can't function and deserves being shut down. They do this with Amtrak, they do it with the State Department, they do it with public schools, they do it with state universities, with healthcare, with prisons, with everything they want to privatize. Funny, they do this with minorities too. Systematically deny them, over many generations, a good education, decent healthcare, safe neighborhoods, ability to vote, and economic opportunity, and then blame them for being uneducated, unhealthy, unsafe, frauds during elections, and for not contributing to the overall economy. Funny how the Rs' playbook is the same everywhere you look. As for Amtrak, all the transcontinental routes are in jeopardy, the conductor told me. It's only a matter of time before they're gone. No other civilized country in the world has such lousy transportation infrastructure. Especially trains. The U.S. should have bullet trains going everywhere, but no.
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > The U.S. should have bullet trains going everywhere I love trains, but I disagree. Trains outperform cars and planes in regional contexts. Cross-country rail, if it’s maintained, needs to be explicitly subsidised. Given voters in the middle of the country prefer to scrap their regional transportation infrastructure, I—as a coastal taxpayer—am fine with that.
- mason55 8y ago
  It’s called “starve the beast” and it’s an actual tactic
  - brianstorms 8y ago
    Indeed. There is an excellent film documentary by that very name that documents how they're starving public universities across the country and how some may go bankrupt soon. The irony is, the Rs collectively are the beast, and if we were honest we'd see that their strategy is actually Feed the Beast all the way. Redirect public money to private profit.
tomohawk 8y ago
Atlas shrugged
watersb 8y ago
Las Vegas, New Mexico is a town that used to be a major rail station. Amazing Victorian houses, as the rail line enabled prosperous folk to import building materials and household items from Sears-Roebuck in Chicago. 100 years before Amazon was a thing. I love the Lamy Amtrak station and ride every chance I get to leave town. Los Angeles for less than $100, or the other direction from Lamy to Raton to visit the family ranch. Two months ago we rode that line out of Lamy and I was really surprised how busy it was, at least 50 people boarding at that station. My favorite vacation ever was a long sleeper-car service, out of Emeryville (my home town at the time) and Denver. The views are spectacular. Meals are inclded with the sleeper service, and is really good. The people are remarkable. I was working for an early dot-com at the time and I slept deeply for 12 hours. Also: NO STRESS of an airport. FREE PARKING. Show up 20 minites early, whatever, just walk right up and get on the train. Even with coach service, the seats are huge recliners and you don't need to stay in your seat. Walk around!
dreamcompiler 8y ago
I use this train and it will be a pity to lose it. It's quite pleasant; you can often get a sleeper for less than the price of a flight. Unlike a plane, you can get up and walk around, work on your laptop, talk on the phone, charge all your devices from a real 110v outlet, and eat fairly decent food. The scenery is beautiful. (The onboard wifi does suck but that's no surprise; I solve that problem by bringing my own hotspot.) That said, over the last year or two, service has been degrading to the point of the train often being hours late. Food quality, cleanliness, and general attention to detail have been slipping from constant budget cuts.

44 points by niftich 8y ago

Wonder if this means that there is no hope for expanding the Amtrak line through OKC into Kansas. I hope they are able to expand north into more states.

ghaff 8y ago

One of these days I'd like to do one of the Amtrak long-haul Western US routes although I expect the idea is more appealing than the actual experience would be. Unfortunately, Amtrak's Northeast Corridor basically makes money that it loses in almost of its other routes. There may be a few city pairs here that may eke out a profit but not a lot.

JKCalhoun 8y ago
Rode Emeryville, CA to Omaha, NE. Glad I was able to take the kids on that experience while they still can.
reaperducer 8y ago
I used to be an Empire Builder regular. Now a regular on two other Amtrak long-distance routes. There are some spectacular views, but remember that a good portion of it happens in the dark and you end up looking at a lot of nothing. It really is an experience, as long as you go first class (sleeping berth). Some routes have events for the first class passengers that are themes with the route. Wine and cheese tastings, for example. Or miniature margarita and nachos fiestas. What I find interesting is that the level of service varies from run to run. I suspect due to staffing issues. Not everyone wants to spend a week or more away from home at a time to be a waiter.
394549 8y ago
> One of these days I'd like to do one of the Amtrak long-haul Western US routes although I expect the idea is more appealing than the actual experience would be. If I had to take one of those routes again, I'd do it as a sleeper car passenger. I took the Empire Builder as regular passenger. I'm glad I tried it once, and the views in the Rockies were amazing, but 30+ hours straight in a reclining seat is a bit much to do again. I think it would have been much more enjoyable with a proper place to sleep.
- bbunix 8y ago
  Do it in a sleeper, a very pleasant experience...
- ghaff 8y ago
  I'd definitely go for the sleeper. I'd almost certainly do either Empire Builder or California Zephyr.
- sndean 8y ago
  Agreed. I did the Crescent route (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crescent_(train) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crescent_(train)) once and never will again if not in a sleeper car. Looking back, I wouldn't go as far as saying it was torture (being unable to sleep), but I thought it was in the moment.
- gomox 8y ago
  Alternate view: I did it in coach but with stops in between (so not 30+ hours at a time) and would recommend my version. One of the highlights of the trip was talking to everyone else in the train, which is bound to happen when you're in what amounts to a very long corridor for 12 hours at a time. Most youngish solo travelers seemed to be doing it this way.
- archagon 8y ago
  Yep, went cross-country from NY to SF in coach. It's hard to get sleep; would not recommend. (But on the upside, got a $130 coupon for a future ride after a 9-hour delay!)
dionidium 8y ago
I've done the California Zephyr between Denver and San Francisco (at Emeryville). The actual experience was much better than I expected it to be. It's stunningly beautiful. It's pretty clear that these routes are under threat. I intend to ride as many of them as I can before they close. It's definitely worth the time.
- ghaff 8y ago
  It's natural to wait for a point where I have more time and maybe more inclination to take less energetic trips. But you're right that long-haul Amtrak routes probably won't be around forever.

gomox 8y ago

If you like long distance trains make sure you ride the Amtraks before it's too late.

koolba 8y ago
Or just go to Europe.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  Unless you mean Russia, Europe doesn't have the same kind of long-distance rail service. Remember Europe is geographically very small. And as much as it pains the anti-Americans in the audience, the United States still has the world's largest rail network. Number two is Russia, which is a distant second, followed by China. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_transport_network_size https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_tran...
  - Doctor_Fegg 8y ago
    Rail network != passenger rail network, though, which was the point of the top-level comment AIUI. If we look at patronage, US passenger miles in 2017 were 6.53bn. UK passenger miles in just one quarter were 10bn.
    - pjc50 8y ago
      We have a lot more rail commuters jammed into medium distance trains.
    - paleotrope 8y ago
      Well american trains don't go anywhere anyone wants to go to in a reasonable amount of time.
      - ghaff 8y ago
        I can get from Boston to NYC in a reasonable amount of time using the train. Very competitive with air. Not so much on my next trip from Boston to San Francisco.

JohnTHaller 8y ago

Interesting how the politicians demand it be kept running and maintained yet don't talk about where the $30-$50 million in repairs to the existing track or the $55 million to install the required positive train controls safety systems will come from.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
moorhosj 8y ago
I find it interesting that politicians increase military spending by $100 billion or we cut future revenue by $1 trillion and nobody bats an eye. Meanwhile, people hem and haw over $50 million to maintain critical infrastructure.
- losteric 8y ago
  Rich people sell guns, poor people ride trains. Not all of them, obviously, but enough to "guide" the decisions of career politicians.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    By and large poor people ride buses or drive. Buses go a lot places trains do not and, in the Northeast, buses are far cheaper than trains. Get above about 500 miles or so and planes are often cheaper.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
vkou 8y ago
If there was a highway bridge that needed $50 million in repairs, those same politicians wouldn't bat an eye, before signing the cheque. That is, if they didn't earmark $2 billion to replace it.
- munk-a 8y ago

labster 8y ago

Apparently the plan is to offload management of passenger train service to the states, as this is clearly a states' rights issue. Possibly related: the current head of Amtrak is an airline guy.

reaperducer 8y ago
clearly a states' rights issue Some of the states have formed regional rail alliances. There are also non-profits doing good work in this area. Example: https://www.midwesthsr.org https://www.midwesthsr.org

solsticedev 8y ago

This is sad; as a Boy Scout I actually rode this train from Chicago to Raton for a trip to Philmont Scout Ranch. I know my troop and many others utilize this transportation option as flying can be expensive and inconvenient for large groups, especially when you are bringing large backpacking gear with TSA prohibited or check-only items like camping stove fuel, pocket knives, etc.

paulie_a 8y ago
I hate to break it to you but some of those items don't seem to be allowed on Amtrak either.

niftich 8y ago

The Southwest Chief runs between Chicago and LA, via Kansas City, Albuquerque, and Flagstaff. It approaches Wichita within 25 miles, but bypasses it to run west for ~350 miles across rural Kansas and Colorado, serving several small towns, and forming a significant transportation backbone. Thereafter, between La Junta, CO (east of Pueblo, CO) and Lamy, NM (adjacent to Santa Fe, NM), the Southwest Chief runs over track owned by BNSF that the freight railroad no longer uses. This lattermost stretch is the most troublesome section, and the topic of much of the article. BNSF has offered [1] to host this train over a different route that it actively uses -- the Southern Transcon. Using the Southern Transcon would add direct service to Wichita, Amarillo, Clovis, and Vaughn, but would bypass southwest Kansas, southeast Colorado, and northeast New Mexico. Doing so would also remove direct service from Albuquerque and put it even further from Santa Fe. If it weren't for the Albuquerque complication, this would be a pretty good route. Amtrak has, under its previous leadership, worked with the governments of Kansas, Colorado, and New Mexico, and various localities along the route to solicit funding for continuing the service over its original route. It also got some federal grants. Previous CEOs were staunchly supportive of continuing long-distance service. The new CEO, significantly less so. Representatives from these states were caught unaware by his new approach, and now those matching funds could be in question. The Southwest Chief is a notable cross-country service, but it's also the transportation backbone of southwest Kansas and southeast Colorado. In my opinion, KS and CO, together with Amtrak and BNSF, should investigate a service between eastern Kansas (e.g. Wichita or KC) and Denver, serving many of the same rural towns of both, but also the major cities of Pueblo, Colorado Springs, and Denver in Colorado. The track is owned by BNSF and is in good shape, and would provide service to new markets on a less fraught route. New Mexico should investigate a solution that works for them, which may or may not include more transportation options from Las Vegas, NM, to Santa Fe and Albuquerque, and working with Texas to explore routes towards Lubbock and Dallas. [1] https://www.codot.gov/about/southwest-chief-commission/swchief-interim-leg-sub-comm-110614-v8-final https://www.codot.gov/about/southwest-chief-commission/swchi...

cozzyd 8y ago
NM already has commuter rail between Alberquerque (and Santa Fe) and Belen, where the Southern Transcon reaches. In a world where Amtrak LD trains ran on time, the schedules could be adjusted for a convenient transfer making it not so bad for Albuquerque.

brianstorms 8y ago

I just rode the Southwest Chief from New Mexico to Illinois and back, last month. Had a long talk with one of the conductors while on the trip. We discussed the remarkable pattern that the Republicans follow: starve everything they don't like (or that they want to privatize so they can pocket the money), then use the subsequent difficulties and failures and budget shortfalls of the starved agency as proof that the agency can't function and deserves being shut down. They do this with Amtrak, they do it with the State Department, they do it with public schools, they do it with state universities, with healthcare, with prisons, with everything they want to privatize. Funny, they do this with minorities too. Systematically deny them, over many generations, a good education, decent healthcare, safe neighborhoods, ability to vote, and economic opportunity, and then blame them for being uneducated, unhealthy, unsafe, frauds during elections, and for not contributing to the overall economy. Funny how the Rs' playbook is the same everywhere you look. As for Amtrak, all the transcontinental routes are in jeopardy, the conductor told me. It's only a matter of time before they're gone. No other civilized country in the world has such lousy transportation infrastructure. Especially trains. The U.S. should have bullet trains going everywhere, but no.

JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> The U.S. should have bullet trains going everywhere I love trains, but I disagree. Trains outperform cars and planes in regional contexts. Cross-country rail, if it’s maintained, needs to be explicitly subsidised. Given voters in the middle of the country prefer to scrap their regional transportation infrastructure, I—as a coastal taxpayer—am fine with that.
mason55 8y ago
It’s called “starve the beast” and it’s an actual tactic
- brianstorms 8y ago
  Indeed. There is an excellent film documentary by that very name that documents how they're starving public universities across the country and how some may go bankrupt soon. The irony is, the Rs collectively are the beast, and if we were honest we'd see that their strategy is actually Feed the Beast all the way. Redirect public money to private profit.

tomohawk 8y ago

Atlas shrugged

watersb 8y ago

Las Vegas, New Mexico is a town that used to be a major rail station. Amazing Victorian houses, as the rail line enabled prosperous folk to import building materials and household items from Sears-Roebuck in Chicago. 100 years before Amazon was a thing. I love the Lamy Amtrak station and ride every chance I get to leave town. Los Angeles for less than $100, or the other direction from Lamy to Raton to visit the family ranch. Two months ago we rode that line out of Lamy and I was really surprised how busy it was, at least 50 people boarding at that station. My favorite vacation ever was a long sleeper-car service, out of Emeryville (my home town at the time) and Denver. The views are spectacular. Meals are inclded with the sleeper service, and is really good. The people are remarkable. I was working for an early dot-com at the time and I slept deeply for 12 hours. Also: NO STRESS of an airport. FREE PARKING. Show up 20 minites early, whatever, just walk right up and get on the train. Even with coach service, the seats are huge recliners and you don't need to stay in your seat. Walk around!

dreamcompiler 8y ago

I use this train and it will be a pity to lose it. It's quite pleasant; you can often get a sleeper for less than the price of a flight. Unlike a plane, you can get up and walk around, work on your laptop, talk on the phone, charge all your devices from a real 110v outlet, and eat fairly decent food. The scenery is beautiful. (The onboard wifi does suck but that's no surprise; I solve that problem by bringing my own hotspot.) That said, over the last year or two, service has been degrading to the point of the train often being hours late. Food quality, cleanliness, and general attention to detail have been slipping from constant budget cuts.