24 ms·

The Surface Book 2 is everything the MacBook Pro should be

407 points by ChrisLTD 8y ago

rbanffy 8y ago
Unfortunately, it comes installed with Windows. edit: of course it runs Windows. It also comes pre-installed with it.
- sofaofthedamned 8y ago
  Unfortunately the link 404s
  - owenwil 8y ago
    Back now, sorry.
- jdietrich 8y ago
  FTA: Most people that I showed the Surface to were impressed by what they saw, but almost always came back to the same thing: it doesn’t run macOS. I’m increasingly frustrated by this because it’s almost always a misunderstanding of how far Windows 10 has come, and how compatible the workflow now is regardless of what you might do for a job. I suspect most people haven't touched Windows since years ago and it's time for a serious second look if so. I’ve written about web development on Windows 10 before, but even since a year ago it’s come such a long way. The Bash on Windows environment is now so performant and well supported that you won’t even know the difference if you move from a MacBook, and Microsoft continues to improve it at an impressive clip. Unless you’re using Xcode, your workflow will almost certainly move from macOS to Windows as a non-event: it’s that good now, and I spend most of my time living in the Bash environment without any problems — even with complicated situations like Symlinks inside Bash now actually working fully.
  - djtriptych 8y ago
    Maybe, but this is the kind of thing you can't test until you own one and use it every day for a couple of months. There are dozens of command line tools I rely on; any of them breaking is a deal breaker, even the ones I only use a couple of times a month.
  - yesimahuman 8y ago
    I've tried to adopt the alternative bash systems on Windows, and they are nowhere close to terminal options on OS X (or Linux!). It still boggles my mind why we have to stay within the limits of the cmd.exe UI, with the lack of window resizing, easy copy/paste, and proper font rendering. Then, on top of that, Windows will never have a proper unix-like filesystem. I just can't go back to that. The only thing windows has going for it when it comes to development is performance. My windows desktop screams compared to my mac, but is relegated to gaming.
    - addicted 8y ago
      I don’t use cmd.exe for anything. It’s Powershell all the way. Powershell, while different from the BASH way of doing things, is a really nice commandline tool.
      - yesimahuman 8y ago
        Doesn't powershell still have the same UI limitations of cmd.exe? I'm not talking about the actual shell itself, but the application the shell runs in.
        pdpi 8y ago
        It does, yeah. But powershell inside conemu is a fairly decent experience.
      - rbanffy 8y ago
        I really wish they didn't alias 'curl' into its internal web client. Looks like curl, but all options are wrong.
      - strmpnk 8y ago
        Powershell is flashy but I find it's a poor interactive tool but great for scripting. I tend to stick with cmd as the better shell and run sh scripts when I need a little more done. It may be old and have its quirks but people dismiss cmd way too quickly.
    - 8y ago
  - eropple 8y ago
    It's everything around baseline development that sucks when using WSL, not WSL itself. WSL itself is really cool. What's not cool is dealing with linters and compiling tools and all the other bric-a-brac that has to cross the Windows/WSL divide. Some of them have been fixed to support WSL, others haven't, knowing which have and which haven't is a crapshoot, and WSL is a third-class citizen at best so good luck waiting on them. On top of that, all of the little things are wrong. MacOS/Linux aren't identical by any means but I expect (say) important configuration for everything, not just my things, to be accessible via my shell. My shell, by which I mean having to bail out into PowerShell (which is a bad acid trip) or into clicking stuff is just not gonna fly. I am not unfamiliar with or uncomfortable with Windows but it irks the hell out of me to have to bail out of my work environment to start clicking around or to `Start-OddCommands -WithSillyFlags` and there's no reason for it. When I ditched MacOS, I instead went to Fedora. (Which, I am told, does run quite well on a Surface Book.) There's a Windows partition on my work machine, but it's mostly just so I can run a DAW (Ardour is bleh, don't @ me) for remotely recording audio.
    - mattferderer 8y ago
      Try Cmder.
      - eropple 8y ago
        I've been using Cmder since shortly after its initial release. It doesn't step to either Tilix or iTerm2, depending on platform.
      - GordonS 8y ago
        Another Cmder user here - I actually find it to be superior to any terminal I've used on MacOS.
        raarts 8y ago
        In what way exactly?
    - owenwil 8y ago
  - cwyers 8y ago
    > I suspect most people haven't touched Windows since years ago and it's time for a serious second look if so. I feel like this is evidence of living in a bubble. Windows is the dominant OS for anything in a PC form factor (even if you include the iPad Pro in the count).
    - rbanffy 8y ago
      I routinely test software and web applications (and a font) on Windows. It never ceases to amaze me how verbose PowerShell is, or how confusing and convoluted is everything around managing a Windows machine. You have vendor-provided settings panels and widgets for video, network, and wireless, you never quite know what went wrong where and which is the right place to fix it or where do you add a setting. I really don't want that. For most people, the web is the dominant platform and Windows is just what draws Facebook on the monitor.
    - nickjj 8y ago
      I think it's bubble related. I've never been happier using Windows with WSL + Docker for Linux based web development. Things are super stable and the computer I built for ~$750 almost 5 years ago (i5 3.2ghz, 16gb of ram, ssd, decent video card, etc.) still runs as fast as it did on day 1.
  - SimbaOnSteroids 8y ago
    Its not even that it doesn't run macOS its that it makes doing _stuff a hassle. Like I wanted to dual boot my gaming rig to also run Linux, and figuring out sdd and hdd partitions and clearing up space on the hard drives was made way more difficult than it needed to be. Had to enter a second shell look up commands for it etc. On a nix machine it was du -sh | sort -h
  - daxorid 8y ago
    The biggest problem with Windows is de-facto key escrow. If you want to use BitLocker in W10, you have two options: 1. Escrow your FDE keys with Microsoft Live 2. Go through the hassle of setting up a PDC and escrowing them to your domain. There is no option to NOT escrow your keys to a very LEO-cozy company with a local account. This is an immediate deal-killer, regardless of any other features or improvements.
    - binarycrusader 8y ago
      This does not work quite the way you’ve stated: https://articles.forensicfocus.com/2016/03/23/bitlocker-whats-new-in-windows-10-november-update-and-how-to-break-it/ https://articles.forensicfocus.com/2016/03/23/bitlocker-what... The short version is there are multiple levels of BitLocker functionality and what options are available is dependent upon hardware, group policies, and the Windows Edition installed.
  - s73v3r_ 8y ago
    Honestly, it sounds like someone who's surly that other people don't like the same thing as them.
- gaius 8y ago
  Unfortunately, it runs Windows. Not a problem anymore https://gaiustech.wordpress.com/2018/06/16/wsl-is-a-game-changer/ https://gaiustech.wordpress.com/2018/06/16/wsl-is-a-game-cha... I say it every time it comes up, because it’s true, Surface is what Macbooks and iMacs should have been, perhaps would have if Jobs were still around
intellix 8y ago
I guess he got slashdotted
- owenwil 8y ago
  We're up! It was a weird PHP bug... sorry :)
Karunamon 8y ago
The Surface Book 2 sadly can only run an operating system that invades my privacy, and when it's not doing that, treats me as hostile, and when it's not doing that, is a general UI disaster and pain in the ass to work with. Hardware is becoming increasingly generic and commoditized. It's the absolute least interesting part of the buying decision: does it have the right numbers? More interesting: Can it run the OS I already have and read the data I've spent the better part of a decade working with and collecting without requiring me to spend a bunch of time re-learning how to do basic tasks that are committed deep to muscle memory? How much new software am I going to have to buy? Will that time and money spent result in a productivity improvement substantial enough to offset the opportunity cost? If not, I'm not going to bother. I can't be alone here. Straight comparisons across platforms like the headline does here are never completely legitimate.
WesleyLivesay 8y ago
I would love to see more laptop manufacturers use the 3:2 aspect ratio, especially on screens smaller than 15".
- whitepoplar 8y ago
  If Apple made a 12-13" laptop with a 3:2, non-glossy display, an all-day battery, and a non-broken keyboard, I'd probably pay double for it.
  - bhauer 8y ago
    There needs to be a renaissance of non-glossy (matte) screens, for the sake of the eyesight of us all.
- thinkythought 8y ago
  There's some interesting budget options like the Chuwi lapbook(both the 12 and 13in versions) that are starting to. I just wish there were more midrange/higher spec options between that and the surface book
- ScottBurson 8y ago
  It's interesting to see some bounceback after the industry's mad rush to 16:9. I'm very glad that Apple stuck with 8:5, which I greatly prefer. Haven't tried 3:2.
timdorr 8y ago
Cached: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OzE2qbUBetMJ:https://char.gd/blog/2018/the-surface-book-2-is-everything-the-macbook-pro-should-be-and-then-some+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OzE2qb...
cma 8y ago
Just don't put your hand on it: https://www.reddit.com/r/Surface/comments/7of68m/surface_pro_intermittent_pen_inaccuracy_when_hand/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Surface/comments/7of68m/surface_pro... (I still think it is better than MacBook. Just really annoying that they got this wrong)
- justherefortart 8y ago
  This isn't a Surface Pro.
- thinkythought 8y ago
  This has been screwed up since they moved away from the original, much MUCH nicer wacom digitizers(which were also more sensitive with the pen). I still haven't heard a legit explanation besides this other than "they're expensive"
  - mkl 8y ago
    One reason is that N-Trig works accurately right to the edge of the screen, but Wacom loses quite a lot of precision near the edge and pressure can behave differently there too. That's why Wacom's own Intuos and Cintiq devices have enormous bevels - the pen sensor continues out further.
sinatra 8y ago
Such articles always give too much importance to the hardware (which is somewhat important, no doubt) and not enough importance to the software. Many people are looking for quality alternatives to Macbooks, Mac Mini, etc (myself included). Mac Mini hasn’t been updated for 4-5 years. So, I started setting up a Windows desktop as a Mac Mini replacement. But when it came to finding all the alternatives to the OS X software I was using, and when Windows started showing me notifications about “try Edge,” “give us your valuable feedback,” etc, I went back. If only Ubuntu could have native MS Office (needed for docs from lawyers), Sketch / Adobe products (needed for working with our designers), etc!
- justherefortart 8y ago
  Configuring software is hard, especially with google available.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  Windows 10 is really annoying. Tons of notifications and random stuff preinstalled. Even on the Enterprise version. I also don't like the Edge/IE split. Now we have two half baked browsers. And on my HP blue screens are back. I thought that was a thing of the past.
  - tomnipotent 8y ago
    > and random stuff preinstalled It's less horrible if you buy MS hardware like the Surface - only a few games come pre-installed, unlike the misery HP & Dell inflict.
    - hackujin 8y ago
      An OS should not have any bloatware at all. This should not exist and yet it does: https://github.com/W4RH4WK/Debloat-Windows-10 https://github.com/W4RH4WK/Debloat-Windows-10
      - wodenokoto 8y ago
tombert 8y ago
Has anyone managed to get Linux booted on this thing and working well? I've been debating purchasing one, but I am afraid that I'll be stuck with Windows, which, for what I work on, makes hacking pretty difficult. EDIT: Just as a note, I know about WSL (I use it at work), but I would greatly prefer to have Linux working on root. I have a lot of custom systemd setups, and I've become somewhat dependent on XMonad.
- bluedino 8y ago
  There's a run-down of all the Surface devices here: https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/current_state_of_surfaceseries_devices/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/curren...
- sinatra 8y ago
  How is your experience with WSL? Do you get stuck in a lot of corner cases with it? Or does it work seamlessly most of the time? Guess not, considering you’d “greatly prefer Linux working on root.”
  - tombert 8y ago
    I don't have a big problem with it at work, but at home I tend to go kind of hardcore at home since it makes me feel validated as a geek. I know you can install X on Windows, but I tend to prefer using XMonad with urxvt to navigate at home, so as to minimize my time using a mouse; AFAIK, you can't interop the Windows version of Firefox in my XMonad setup for WSL. I'm not saying I couldn't make an equally productive setup in Windows, but I've come to prefer the setup I have on my personal laptop, which is sadly five years old and finally starting to show its age.
    - strmpnk 8y ago
      You can run window managers just fine with X on windows. I use i3 and bspwm on my surface almost anytime I turn that machine on (I have other Linux laptops I use as well and the config is one rsync away usually). Just be sure that whichever x server you run doesn't run its built in manager. With VcXsrv you can do this via XLaunch.
throwawayqdhd 8y ago
The Surface Book also runs something I never want to deal with again: Windows 10. I can't deal with a software that constantly gets in the way of my work. I gave Windows a lot of tries, but the latest edition was the last straw for me. Never going back.
- ghaff 8y ago
  I'm inclined to agree and I have Windows, Linux, and MacOS laptops today (as well Chromebooks). The Windows one is actually the most powerful one from a hardware perspective; it's a 17" Alienware. But I mostly prefer to work on my 13" MacBook. I probably could configure the Windows system to be less annoying but the trackpad doesn't really work for me and I still find Windows a bit clunky comparatively. Perhaps if I spent more time with it day to day but I don't have the same feeling with Fedora even though I use it about the same amount. I'm also skeptical about laptop/tablet hybrids. And that's not a comment on Microsoft.I've tried to use my iPad Pro as a laptop replacement when traveling and it really doesn't work for me.
  - skinnymuch 8y ago
    iPad Pro is a far different beast from Surfaces. iPad Pro is still just a tablet.
- zdragnar 8y ago
  I have an original surface book, and linux works more or less flawlessly. Running arch right now, and the only thing that didn't work out of the box was the touch screen. Fortunately, I never use touch screens for anything anyway! The only interesting thing was getting dual booting set up. I goofed. I didn't realize bitlocker was on, encrypting the hard drive, and apparently didn't have a recovery key, which you apparently need if any boot setting is touched at all. As a result, I had to wipe + re-install the whole system, but that was no great loss since everything I really needed was backed up anyway. In fact, I've had fewer problems running arch on the surface book than with my work's dell xps 13, though I'll admit that most of those troubles are due to the dell's USB-C port and linux support in USB-C docks / hubs.
- 8y ago
maxxxxx 8y ago
How is the trackpad? I have played with the original Surface Book and there it was still far away from my MacBook.
- schappim 8y ago
  The trackpad is actually better. Apple actually broke their perfect trackpad from the 2016 MBP onwards. I didn’t realise how perfect the Mac’s trackpad previously was until “upgrading” to the 15” MBP with the oversized trackpad that has spurious input whilst typing!
  - lcfcjs 8y ago
    Nah you should actually try post 2016 trackpads, still the best you can get.
plandis 8y ago
Is there good driver support for the touchpad and other hardware in Linux?
- timdorr 8y ago
  There's a good breakdown of all Surface hardware in this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/current_state_of_surfaceseries_devices/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/curren...
bluedino 8y ago
Even less ports. Not upgradeable. Not serviceable. Author wants UNIX tools but Linux doesn't even work correctly with the device yet.
- GordonS 8y ago
  Plenty of Unix tools work in WSL (and plenty worked through Cygwin before that).
  - lghh 8y ago
    Plenty is not enough, unfortunately.
dylrich 8y ago
I am also wondering how Linux runs on this. A Windows-only machine is out of the question for me, but the hardware looks pretty solid. I'll consider buying one if I can get Fedora to play well with it.
- Casseres 8y ago
  It looks like it can run Linux pretty decently (I might be tempted to give it a try): https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Microsoft_Surface_Book_2 https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Microsoft_Surface_Book_... https://old.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/current_state_of_surfaceseries_devices/ https://old.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/curren...
sebringj 8y ago
What has stuck me to mac is ONLY this...I have to have XCode and Android Studio in one machine. That's it. How do I run XCode in windows or Linux even? I don't want to have to have a mac so I'm all ears.
- ChrisLTD 8y ago
  You’re stuck forever, unless you want to try to run XCode in a virtual machine.
  - sebringj 8y ago
    bloating bloatware dev situation ouch
- patrickg_zill 8y ago
  Break the EULA and install OS X in a virtual machine.
  - sebringj 8y ago
    something like mono has to come out, that would be funny if the tables were turned on macs and they started making shells for windows
- SXX 8y ago
  Under Linux you can run macOS in QEMU VM. Sometimes you'll need to wait for patches if you need most recent updates, but other than that it work flawlessly. Then if you need 3D you can buy compatible GPU as pass it into VM. That way I could build and test C++ project across all OS under single Linux host. And it's nice to have all major browsers at hand too for web development.
onyva 8y ago
It’s the software, stupid. Nobody wants to go back to windows. Ever.
zerr 8y ago
Windows 7 support?
- krylon 8y ago
  Strictly speaking, I have no idea. But considering that MS refuses to supply updates to Windows 7 running on current CPUs, I am not very optimistic.
- secabeen 8y ago
  No. There is no windows 7 support for any CPU after Skylake. As a Kaby Lake CPU, Windows 10 is the only supported version.
- freeone3000 8y ago
  No. No windows 7 drivers are available for any of the custom hardware bits.
tomxor 8y ago
I hate MS, but this looks like a genuinely nice piece of hardware... I wonder if it can run anything other than Windows without being half broken, then I might be interested. [Edit] Looks like everyone is thinking the same thing :P Now who can we pay to invest a month hacking away at figuring out how to get all the bits of hardware working in Linux? Following the link various others have posted here [1], it looks like the surface book 2 support isn't completely terrible, much better than i expected, but not amazing either... Broken things and things that require more effort are: - Sleep S3 broken - Video is dual nVidia GPU, requires bumblebee - TouchPad and Pen broken, work with a custom Linux kernel - PCI camera(s) not working The touchpad is probably gona be the most annoying one. https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/current_state_of_surfaceseries_devices/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/curren...
- arto 8y ago
  > Now who can we pay to invest a month hacking away at figuring out how to get all the bits of hardware working in Linux? There is donation information at: https://github.com/jakeday/linux-surface https://github.com/jakeday/linux-surface
mikeymop 8y ago
This does NOT look easy to repair. I'll keep waiting for the new 2012 MBP.
bartq 8y ago
From blogpost: this flipped laptop screen standing next to bigger monitor looks very interesting. If it's close enough to mess up using your fingers, that potentially could be very interesting setup for work. But software seems to be a limiting factor; I'm not aware of apps on screen (a) that would react to changes happening on other screen (b) or even other app window.
collinf 8y ago
> I don't want a serious gaming monstrosity, I just desired something that can do the job well, had great build quality and could run the Unix-based tools I need to use to get through the day while offering reasonable battery life. It's a tall order, but should be feasible. Proceeds to not touch upon a single way the Surface 2 is UNIX-y in any sort of way? I know the WSL is there but the biggest stop for me using anything other than a MBP is that I wouldn't be able to develop without a *nix environment.
- alexland 8y ago
  He talks more about WSL near the end: > The Bash on Windows environment is now so performant and well supported that you won’t even know the difference if you move from a MacBook, and Microsoft continues to improve it at an impressive clip. > Unless you’re using Xcode, your workflow will almost certainly move from macOS to Windows as a non-event: it’s that good now, and I spend most of my time living in the Bash environment without any problems — even with complicated situations like Symlinks inside Bash now actually working fully.
  - schappim 8y ago
    > you won’t even know the difference if you move from a MacBook Just a heads up: IO has some serious bottle necks in WSL that makes it feel quite slow in comparison to my various Macs. M$ is headed in the right direction though!
dizzystar 8y ago
I guess as someone looking for a MacBook alternative within a small limit, doing PHP and design, this sounds great. I recently moved from Linux to MacBook after 7(?) years of Linux an exploratory foray into Windows 10. I simply don't trust the Windows to get out of my way. A simple problem in older Windows was trying to profile for speed. After going through the very slow startup, you gotta keep an eye on what's going to randomly start running. It's a pain, and not having to deal with this is a huge win for Linux and MacOS. In Windows, I turn off an item in startup and what do you know, it's still starting up, not because the machine started, but because I opened up a separate program, because clearly, a program I never use is now convenient because Windows says so. I got this feeling like I don't have any ownership of my computer and OS. Sure, Windows looks nice and is usable, but it feels like I'm renting my operating system, and honestly, MacOS sort of feels the same. It's an odd feeling. Windows 10 seems "good enough" for most people's common use-cases. There really isn't a good reason to spend 2x the money on MacOS over a Windows computer for 95% of users, and even many developers are just fine using Windows. It was an interesting read, and I'm glad the author is enjoying the new computer.
- PeCaN 8y ago
  >I got this feeling like I don't have any ownership of my computer and OS. Sure, Windows looks nice and is usable, but it feels like I'm renting my operating system, and honestly, MacOS sort of feels the same. It's an odd feeling. I hadn't thought about it this way, but I feel like this too. It's weird. I don't know why. I think it's the presence of stuff I didn't add, the random updates, Microsoft Store ads, etc. I kind of want to go back to Windows 7 just so that I can feel like I really own my computer again.
some_account 8y ago
Really excellent hardware but I'm sad its using Windows because its horrible and it angers me when I use it. If Apple could make a device like this...it would easily be a top seller even with their Apple tax.
camhart 8y ago
Can't use dual 4k monitors with it...
- freeone3000 8y ago
  You have to chain displayport or use the dock, but yes, they do.
makecheck 8y ago
It’s 2018 and I still see people walking around with Windows laptop lids open because they presumably have no confidence in Windows’ ability to sensibly preserve state after closing the lid. Software matters, and how it integrates with hardware. And I keep waiting for them to fix just the basics in Windows 10. Not utterly losing both the sizes and positions of all windows just because the laptop was undocked. Not failing to recognize the external display upon docking, despite the display working a few minutes earlier. Not completely failing to find files and apps based on how I typed them (“A” brings up “abc” but typing “ab” makes “abc” go away!?). Such a long list.
- dzhiurgis 8y ago
  Author uses IntelliJ which is a $1000 IDE ghat steals focus as you type in it...
- cornellwright 8y ago
  These are fair criticisms, but I don't think anybody has this nailed. I use a mix of Windows, Mac, and Linux, and have found myself walking around with the lid open in all three. Mac seems to handle what you describe better than everyone else, but it's far from perfect. I have one monitor that used to work fine on Windows and Mac. After a software update the Mac only recognizes it about 1 in 20 tries of plugging and unplugging.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    Macs seem to be pretty good in my experience. It was something I really noticed about them when I first started using about 8 years ago. The only real monitor problem I've had was with an iMac that decided it didn't want to initialize the dual displays properly if the 2nd was plugged in when it was booted. Took me about a day to figure I needed to unplug the 2nd display. Eventually some OS update fixed it. Linux is a lot better than it used to be. I can reliably close the lid on my Lenovo X200 running Fedora. And anecdotally there seem to be fewer people going between meetings with laptops open these days so that's presumably a common experience with RHEL and Fedora on company-issued laptops.
egypturnash 8y ago
I gave the Surface Pro 2 a serious shot last year. Ultimately the deal-killers were (1) Windows, especially Windows’ lack of an equivalent to OSX’s colored Finder tags, which I use to keep track of the status of the hundreds of files involved in drawing comics, and (2) Illustrator had a ton of input lag on the stylus no matter what settings I played with. It came real close though. And if Apple put out something in this form factor I would be putting my order in within a day.
benologist 8y ago
I think Apple should open source macOS so it can be decoupled from their hardware, or just start cloning it in open source against their wishes as was done to Windows. Otherwise it's time we let macOS go because Apple plans for it to run iOS apps and to use their iOS processors in their computers, so we and our tools and software are approaching obsolete and when iOS devices can compile apps we will start being redundant too. Even if they released new hardware for us tomorrow it would be coupled with iOS processors and how many generations of having both processors can we really expect? Until server ARM processors are compatible with iOS processors we are eventually going to lose parity with all the server software that made MacBooks good developer platforms too.
- lcfcjs 8y ago
  LOL yeah they should also just give out MBP's for free while they're at it.
- bwbw223 8y ago
  It’s not to directly run iOS apps, but to make it easy to adapt them. We also don’t have any evidence of a change in processors. Please stop presenting speculation as facts.
  - benologist 8y ago
    You're right we have no evidence of them working on iOS-based computers. But obviously anything future-looking is speculation. The only two Macs they have upgraded in years were upgraded to include iOS processors that already inherited some macOS responsibilities. Everything else is very stagnant for so long the blogger sought a successor, despite Apple having great options from Intel and AMD and infinite resources.
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  "I think Apple should open source macOS so it can be decoupled from their hardware, or just start cloning it in open source against their wishes as was done to Windows." Why on earth would Apple want to remove one of their biggest competitive advantages? "Otherwise it's time we let macOS go because Apple plans for it to run iOS apps and to use their iOS processors in their computers, so we and our tools and software are approaching obsolete and when iOS devices can compile apps we will start being redundant too." Citation Needed. They have a toolkit that will allow iOS apps to be recompiled to macOS apps. That's about it. "Even if they released new hardware for us tomorrow it would be coupled with iOS processors and how many generations of having both processors can we really expect?" What the hell is an "iOS processor"?
txsh 8y ago
Doesn’t run MacOS. That’s all I need to know.
schappim 8y ago
I have to second this. We are an all Mac company, but service customers on Windows. For testing purposes, our company purchased a Surface Laptop (not a Surface Book), and I was blown away by the quality coming out of Microsoft. As I use the Surface Laptop, I wish Apple would steal the design and apply it to a new MacBook Air. The screen is excellent, and coming from the Mac world it is surprisingly how good having a touch screen is. Battery life is great and smashes my 15” 2016 MacBook Pro. It reminds me of the good old days of MacBook Air (all day) battery life. The keyboard has travel, but I had to swap around the “Windows Key” and “Ctl key” to stop going mad (I have 19 years of macOS shortcut muscle memory). Microsoft reminds us that you can still have a USB-A port and SD Card Slot in a nice form factor. It is possible to escape the #DongleLife . My only gripes are 1) Windows still pales in comparison to OS X 2) the power supply is proprietary (I really like USB-C chargers).
- thirdsun 8y ago
  I guess most people, even in HN circles, agree that Microsoft as well as other PC manufacturers like Dell (XPS) or Lenovo (Thinkpad) can built beautiful, high quality hardware, but as you already state in your last sentence, that's not the problem at all. Windows is. Or the lack of macOS, for those of us that can't use Linux fulltime.
ricardobeat 8y ago
I feel like I read the same article three times. To match Ars you need more content, not just being prolific.
jrs95 8y ago
It really isn't everything the MacBook Pro should be. It's got an underpowered CPU due to thermal/power constraints of most of the computer being in a tablet form factor, and you're still limited at 16GB of RAM which really blows for a $3000 laptop in the age of Electron.
cncrnd 8y ago
People don't consider reliability as much as they should when they buy a device. The Surface line has been known for poor reliability, with nearly a quarter of customers being affected for some products. The time spent investigating an issue, arranging a repair, sending a device in, setting up on a backup device, and communicating with repairmen only to get an unfixed product back approaches a couple of days of lost productivity. Rules out the Surface Book 2 in my eyes.
- partiallypro 8y ago
  I've had 5 Surface devices and have never had any major issues. The biggest issue I ever had with one was dropping it and shattering its screen. I didn't have coverage on it, but Microsoft replaced it all for about $300.
  - cncrnd 8y ago
    Good for you. However, consumer reports gave a two-year breakage rate of 25% for Surface products. Given a 75% everything-is-ok rate, that gives you around a reasonable 25% chance (.75^5) that everything is ok with 5 devices, illustrating why anecdotes are not helpful in decision making.
    - partiallypro 8y ago
      Consumer Reports also didn't use actual return/replacement rates with Surface devices, and included in their breakage rate things that are easily attributable to a Windows Update.
      - cncrnd 8y ago
        It's still a negative indicator of reliability. I'm sure the breakage rate for other devices also includes software related issues, and I would expect less windows update issues on a Microsoft device than a third party manufacturer device. The difference in hardware reliability might even be greater than it appears accounting for the possible software compatibility advantage.
consto 8y ago
I am soon to be in the market and this is tempting me.
j45 8y ago
If MacOS ran smoothly and received all updates on the Surface Pro or Surface Book, I would likely be running one of those devices. Hackintoshes are progressing - not sure if it can be production grade from a seamless patching perspective.
jason_slack 8y ago
I have tried both the Surface Book 1 and Surface Book 2 in order to switch from a MacBook Pro due to hardware and software quality issues. In both SB1 and SB2 Microsoft had to swap out each version 3 times before they asked me to just return it and perhaps look for another model. Why? It would shutdown randomly, I could not enable developer mode, Windows update would just throw errors and Microsoft could not solve it. Office would reinstall itself every 2-3 reboots. All issues were reproduced at a Microsoft Retail store location. I do feel Microsoft is headed in the right direction, but they are not quite there yet. This being said Microsoft had regained my respect over the last few years after losing it in the late 90's, early 2000's.
funwie 8y ago
I think it will make more sense to compare hardwares at same level. 300$ or 1000$ PC to 2000$ Mac seems odd, isn’t it? Buy a PC with same price tag as a Mac. Use and then feedback.
NicoJuicy 8y ago
Or, how the one with the biggest market share became the underdog. Other example, Surface Studio: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-studio/overview https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-stud...
twodayslate 8y ago
I only reason I have a Mac is for Xcode. This can't be replaced on Windows.
- 0xcafecafe 8y ago
  Its funny you mention that as Xcode is the reason I can't develop on my macbook. I prefer visual studio. To each their own I guess.
  - lostgame 8y ago
    It's not about preference, it's about necessity...some of us need native iOS/MacOS development, it's part of our job. And for better or mostly for worse in the present moment, a MacBook Pro is really the only way to have xCode and Android Studio on one device in a decent manner.
alanfranzoni 8y ago
If you can stand Windows, there're tons of good laptops around. If you can live with Linux, there're some few decent laptops. If you want MacOS... you're a bit screwed, today.
SeanLuke 8y ago
> The Surface Book 2 is everything the MacBook Pro should be ... does this mean it runs OS X? Because for me that's all that matters. Otherwise it's nothing the MacBook Pro should be.
- dpkonofa 8y ago
  Same. Windows is such a steaming pile of shit for me that I sometimes forget it's not normal for people to reformat and reinstall their OS every 6 months pre-emptively. I do a ton of development on new hardware and, most recently, various VR platforms and the number of driver conflicts and issues I have on Windows is staggering. For the brief fart of time that MacOS was supported, I never had issues. Now, I can't update my Oculus software without it causing the Vive to stop working completely. Why one piece of software can completely eff a separate piece of hardware is beyond me but it's not only possible but also frequent with Windows.
noir_lord 8y ago
I looked at the surface book but ended up going with the T470P (i7-7700HQ/2560x1440) because it allowed me to put 32GB of RAM in it, 16Gb just isn't enough for my workflow (If I have a Win10 instance running in a VM for VS2017, a couple of vagrant instances and intellij open then I can eat 16GB in no time). Also I've been a Linux user for development for >10 years and a mixed linux/windows user for another 10 or so before that, simply not giving up Linux at this point. However pretty it was (and it was) 16Gb just isn't enough for me.
- slantyyz 8y ago
  Laptops with 128GB RAM are now a thing [1]... in case you find yourself wanting more than 32GB [1] https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/laptops-with-128gb-of-ram-are-here/ar-AAyAJm3 https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/laptops-with-128gb...
- sridca 8y ago
  I went with P71, running NixOS on it. The perfect development machine (with a 5k monitor to boot); way better than what MacOS or Windows can achieve.
  - noir_lord 8y ago
    I looked at the P series, nice machines will probably look at one of those next but I think I'll get some life out the T470P yet.
    - acangiano 8y ago
      I have a P51, and I just bought a Pixelbook because the P51 is a great machine but not really a laptop. See here: https://programmingzen.com/google-pixelbook-review/ https://programmingzen.com/google-pixelbook-review/
      - noir_lord 8y ago
        That was what drew me to the T470P absurdly fast little machine, 200+ dpi screen and upgradeable ram and storage. I like the 14” as a step between 13 and 15 as well.
itomato 8y ago
Alcantara and touchscreen? Pass.
- jdmichal 8y ago
  Only Surface Laptop has alcantara... This is about the Surface Book 2.
bcheung 8y ago
I tried to switch from Mac back to PC and got the original Surface Book a few years ago. I really liked the detachable screen but otherwise I didn't find it very useable. The trackpad didn't register clicks a lot of the time and I had to press very hard when dragging so it didn't disengage. It was a bit too flimsy when typing on your lap. Also, all the weight is in the screen so touching the screen and using the keyboard means that you have to grab the back of the screen when pressing so you don't push the screen. I wasn't happy with the performance either being that I needed something that could process RAW photos and do video editing. For general web browsing and coding I think it could work well. I recently got the Dell XPS 15" and am working on converting my programming and photography workflows to Windows. So far everything seems to be going smoothly. Windows Subsystem for Linux really makes a difference and most stuff I've tried works flawlessly without change.
sigzero 8y ago
Almost every single review on YouTube for the Surface Book 2 says the same thing..."Way too expensive for what you get."
- chaostheory 8y ago
  Yeah I would have a hard time justifying it because there are plenty of decent alternatives. With Mac OS, you have no choice. Even with all of its bugs, it's just really hard to get away from MacOS. This is switching from Windows years ago.
AdeptusAquinas 8y ago
It wasn't until reading this that I learnt I could charge my Book with its USB C port. Mind blown.
itomato 8y ago
Windows 10 behaves so much like Windows 95 I'm embarrassed for Microsoft. Anything that seems remotely intuitive coming from a Mac means I'm thrust back into that antiquated mode of thinking and working. Be warned, these anecdotes come from experiences with company-issued equipment. Need to work with cross-platform files or bootstrap a development environment? Still running back to Cygwin. Need some sort of ability to edit ASCII text files? Good luck with that. Working with an .xz or .gz tarball? Take this malware-infested junk and muddle through. Click on the minuscule little icon to expose ten more minuscule icons which are absolutely essential to get anything done. One thing I can say is improved; up-arrow command history. That's about all I can see. Oh, and the old nit about pressing 'Ctrl-Alt-Del' to log in.
ballenf 8y ago
Anyone else have experience in this aspect: > I’ve written about web development on Windows 10 before, but even since a year ago it’s come such a long way. The Bash on Windows environment is now so performant and well supported that you won’t even know the difference if you move from a MacBook, and Microsoft continues to improve it at an impressive clip. > Unless you’re using Xcode, your workflow will almost certainly move from macOS to Windows as a non-event: it’s that good now, and I spend most of my time living in the Bash environment without any problems — even with complicated situations like Symlinks inside Bash now actually working fully. [emphasis mine] Good for Microsoft if so, but I have to wonder if it's one of those situations where everything works well until you hit a brick wall and have to re-setup everything on Mac/Linux to stay productive. This comment bothered me: > Generally, the sticking point for designers is Sketch, which to date refuses to build a Windows client — a ridiculous, anti-user move that I hope eventually will cause people to reconsider it in their workflows. Especially from a developer, that seems like a very uncharitable, demanding interpretation. Is there more to the story? Maybe the author being a web developer influences that view or he just loves Sketch and is bitter to have left it behind.
mixmastamyk 8y ago
Re: the screen Drives me crazy there are no more 16:9 tablets where I watch Netflix, but am forced to use 16:9 monitors on my PC where I need more vertical space to get work done. Industry has it bass-ackwards.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
paulie_a 8y ago
Can I install real Ubuntu on either? Then for that reason I am out on both.
ChuckMcM 8y ago
I have a "good" Macbook pro (2015 Retina MBP) and a Surface Book and prefer the Surface Book for many of the same reasons the author does. (because I have poor impulse control I also have an iPad pro :-). For development, the Surface with the Dock is just killer for me. On the road the iPad has the longest battery life and I use it in a consumption only mode but if I'm doing development I'll bring the Surface as well. From a personal perspective it just feels like Microsoft is spending more of their attention to developers than Apple is over the last few years and their tools reflect that.
jimmcslim 8y ago
I wish this had Thunderbolt 3, which it doesn’t have (contrary to what the article says I think). Hopefully the Surface Book 3 will!
mbell 8y ago
The Surface Book 2 has a 15W CPU in it, which is the power class of the CPU in a Macbook Air. Unless you have a workload that is highly GPU dependent but makes little use of the CPU, the SB2 and MBP aren't even in the same performance class.
mikecx 8y ago
For me it's still software, the hardware is definitely solid. My experience is from when Windows 10 first came out so maybe it's all fixed now. The process to upgrade involved waiting for the bubble to pop-up in the bottom right. It didn't after a week so I had to search out the command line incantation to make it show up. Once I got it to show up, it did nothing until the 5th or 6th restart. Once it started to install it took 3 days, running constantly, on a brand new Surface Book. After that I remained unsold on Windows yet again.
madushan92 8y ago
I don’t really understand the value of a touch screen on a laptop. Specially for a Software Developer. It is easier and quicker to move your hand (while typing) to the touch pad rather than to the display. I think TouchBar (which is underrated) makes sense because in that case you don’t need to move your hand up, it just is there along with the keyboard. Plus I really don’t like those huge touch-optimised buttons on Windows. A laptop is meant to be used with a mouse pointer which is much much more precise than a finger, hence allowing macOS to display smaller buttons maximising screen realestate.
- hugs 8y ago
  A touch screen on MacOS would make sense if you're an iOS developer. You could quickly test touch interactions directly in the iOS Simulator without having to send the app to a phone or tablet.
- zeroxfe 8y ago
  It's fantastic for pretty much any kind of design work. Even you're a software developer building UIs and web interfaces and such. Also great for kids (who generally have less developed motor skills.)
  - smt88 8y ago
    What kind of design work? I don't understand how something laggier than a pencil/pen and less precise than a mouse can be useful. I actually hated doing design work because of the hours of incredibly precise mouse movements required.
    - cma 8y ago
      It has to be a big help when developing a phone or tablet app.
- humblebee 8y ago
  The only time I've actually like having a touch screen is when reading. I commonly hold my laptop near the hinge and being able to swipe on the screen to scroll is fun. Otherwise I don't think I've actually ever used a touch screen for any other kind of input.
dxxvi 8y ago
If you want to save more screen estate, switch to Linux. For example, openbox (a window manager) can hide the top panel of any window based on the class, group class, title, .... properties of that window.
ianwalter 8y ago
It's a nice piece of hardware in general but give me a break with that title.
soyiuz 8y ago
Serious question: was this post paid for by MS in any way? It certainly reads like a promoted piece and the author is in marketing. The preponderance of superlatives is particularly concerning.
cpeth 8y ago
Most posts here are going to mention MacOS as the key feature that will always keep them on Mac hardware. That is understandable, people are comfortable with it. I currently use it for work and am not impressed(just as I was last time in 2014), having always used Linux and sometimes Windows. The only reason I haven't bootcamped Ubuntu is that all of our conference rooms are set up to display via AirPlay(proprietary). I don't want to be the one always hunting for the HDMI dongle (yes it's a mid-2015 MacBook Pro that still has that). -Why is there a global menu bar? With multiple monitors we have 10+ application visible at one time. Why do I need to select one first to then use a menu action instead of just clicking on it like GNOME / Windows -Why are there command/option keys instead of ctrl/alt? This seems like pointless we-are-different-and-special stuff -Why does clicking X (close on an application) just minimize it instead of killing it? But yet minimizing it just puts it in a separate area of the dock? -Why does trying to snap windows to the sides of the monitor throw it into full-screen mode and create a new workspace that then fucks with my ability to overlap windows or alt-tab? -Why does spotlight (CMD + Space) only find one option? Why isn't it part of launchpad? -brew sucks compared to apt and snap but it is better than choclatey -you still need a VM to run docker -you need non-apple hardware to have a back button on the mouse (I loathe the magic mouse 2) For all the devotion it gets for being a modern *NIX development platform, it's solid but not overwhelmingly great. Give Linux and Win10 a try, I am finding them equal these days. Hardware wise, a laptop without a Thunderbolt port these days is just a deal-breaker. There is no excuse for Surface Book 2 to not have one. It's the reason I chose the Dell XPS 15 2-in-1 over it (and saved $400 in doing so). I was a fan of Surface Book 1 and bought one, it served me well. MS is doing good stuff.
neya 8y ago
I am a die hard Mac fan. I upgraded from Windows and never looked back. Recently, I thought Windows might have improved over the years and decided to give it a shot with my girlfriend's Windows 10 laptop and it was because she wanted me to setup a new user account for her. And you wouldn't believe me if I told you that it's near impossible to create a normal user account without a Microsoft Live account along with it. You need to google for it and find some specific workflow to make it happen. I felt so outraged and I totally lost all trust and confidence in MS. It felt really a cheap and scammy way to get more people into their walled gardens. It's a shame because I really wanted to give Windows a chance. Now imagine, if Apple had forced you to use an Apple ID to sign into your Mac. How outraged you'd feel? Having said that, I think the Surface series have a far superior design than any of my Macs. I sometimes feel jealous when I see these guys in coffeeshops playing with it by directly interacting with its screen and the sleek keyboard that comes with it. Ever since then, I've been seriously investigating if there's a way to get Mac OS run on a Surface almost flawlessly. That'd be the perfect laptop for me.
- wvenable 8y ago
  > Now imagine, if Apple had forced you to use an Apple ID to sign into your Mac. How outraged you'd feel? Have you ever used iOS? Microsoft is maybe a little ahead of the game here but I have little doubt it will come to the Mac as well. I have a normal user account without a Microsoft live account; this was several Win10 versions ago but it wasn't too hard to do -- just an option during setup. You can even connect and disconnect them from each other at will. Or just you use your account in the store.
- com2kid 8y ago
  > And you wouldn't believe me if I told you that it's near impossible to create a normal user account without a Microsoft Live account along with it. You need to google for it and find some specific workflow to make it happen. The button is labeled "Add a user without a Microsoft account", I found it rather quickly, never having looked for it. The flow certainly is focused on MS account creation though. I remember in Windows 8, having to look up on Google how to link my MS account! (For me, I appreciate the change, I have enough grandfathered in OneDrive storage that I'm a happy camper.) All of my other computing devices require an account. PCs are trying to hold out. Linux obviously does not, and Apple requires an account login to access a lot of the services that come with the OS.
robbiet480 8y ago
The thing that is consistently keeping me tied to the Mac is iMessage (and Xcode, but that can be more easily solved). Yes, I have my iPhone, but writing on Messages for Mac is just so much easier because full keyboard.
nayuki 8y ago
I want to like this laptop, but the lack of a Right Ctrl key is a dealbreaker for me. There are many keyboard shortcuts that I need to press on the right side, like Ctrl+I or Ctrl+L, using only one hand.
lord_ring_111 8y ago
Except for shitty OS callled windows.
ggm 8y ago
Apple don't want you to, but don't actually impede you installing native Linux. I believe the surface is locked hardware but I'd be delighted to be told I'm wrong.
- kart23 8y ago
  No, they're equally bad in this respect. The newest MBP does not work well with linux (wifi, audio, etc), and this surface book seems like it also has a few problems with linux. If I could actually use linux on the newest MBP, I would've bought it in a heartbeat.
  - ggm 8y ago
    I did them a misservice: https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/6eau79/current_state_of_surfaces/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/6eau79/curren...
draw_down 8y ago
How’s the trackpad? Better be good!

407 points by ChrisLTD 8y ago

rbanffy 8y ago

Unfortunately, it comes installed with Windows. edit: of course it runs Windows. It also comes pre-installed with it.

sofaofthedamned 8y ago
Unfortunately the link 404s
- owenwil 8y ago
  Back now, sorry.
jdietrich 8y ago
FTA: Most people that I showed the Surface to were impressed by what they saw, but almost always came back to the same thing: it doesn’t run macOS. I’m increasingly frustrated by this because it’s almost always a misunderstanding of how far Windows 10 has come, and how compatible the workflow now is regardless of what you might do for a job. I suspect most people haven't touched Windows since years ago and it's time for a serious second look if so. I’ve written about web development on Windows 10 before, but even since a year ago it’s come such a long way. The Bash on Windows environment is now so performant and well supported that you won’t even know the difference if you move from a MacBook, and Microsoft continues to improve it at an impressive clip. Unless you’re using Xcode, your workflow will almost certainly move from macOS to Windows as a non-event: it’s that good now, and I spend most of my time living in the Bash environment without any problems — even with complicated situations like Symlinks inside Bash now actually working fully.
- djtriptych 8y ago
  Maybe, but this is the kind of thing you can't test until you own one and use it every day for a couple of months. There are dozens of command line tools I rely on; any of them breaking is a deal breaker, even the ones I only use a couple of times a month.
- yesimahuman 8y ago
  I've tried to adopt the alternative bash systems on Windows, and they are nowhere close to terminal options on OS X (or Linux!). It still boggles my mind why we have to stay within the limits of the cmd.exe UI, with the lack of window resizing, easy copy/paste, and proper font rendering. Then, on top of that, Windows will never have a proper unix-like filesystem. I just can't go back to that. The only thing windows has going for it when it comes to development is performance. My windows desktop screams compared to my mac, but is relegated to gaming.
  - addicted 8y ago
    I don’t use cmd.exe for anything. It’s Powershell all the way. Powershell, while different from the BASH way of doing things, is a really nice commandline tool.
    - yesimahuman 8y ago
      Doesn't powershell still have the same UI limitations of cmd.exe? I'm not talking about the actual shell itself, but the application the shell runs in.
      - pdpi 8y ago
        It does, yeah. But powershell inside conemu is a fairly decent experience.
    - rbanffy 8y ago
      I really wish they didn't alias 'curl' into its internal web client. Looks like curl, but all options are wrong.
    - strmpnk 8y ago
      Powershell is flashy but I find it's a poor interactive tool but great for scripting. I tend to stick with cmd as the better shell and run sh scripts when I need a little more done. It may be old and have its quirks but people dismiss cmd way too quickly.
  - 8y ago
- eropple 8y ago
  It's everything around baseline development that sucks when using WSL, not WSL itself. WSL itself is really cool. What's not cool is dealing with linters and compiling tools and all the other bric-a-brac that has to cross the Windows/WSL divide. Some of them have been fixed to support WSL, others haven't, knowing which have and which haven't is a crapshoot, and WSL is a third-class citizen at best so good luck waiting on them. On top of that, all of the little things are wrong. MacOS/Linux aren't identical by any means but I expect (say) important configuration for everything, not just my things, to be accessible via my shell. My shell, by which I mean having to bail out into PowerShell (which is a bad acid trip) or into clicking stuff is just not gonna fly. I am not unfamiliar with or uncomfortable with Windows but it irks the hell out of me to have to bail out of my work environment to start clicking around or to `Start-OddCommands -WithSillyFlags` and there's no reason for it. When I ditched MacOS, I instead went to Fedora. (Which, I am told, does run quite well on a Surface Book.) There's a Windows partition on my work machine, but it's mostly just so I can run a DAW (Ardour is bleh, don't @ me) for remotely recording audio.
  - mattferderer 8y ago
    Try Cmder.
    - eropple 8y ago
      I've been using Cmder since shortly after its initial release. It doesn't step to either Tilix or iTerm2, depending on platform.
    - GordonS 8y ago
      Another Cmder user here - I actually find it to be superior to any terminal I've used on MacOS.
      - raarts 8y ago
        In what way exactly?
  - owenwil 8y ago
- cwyers 8y ago
  > I suspect most people haven't touched Windows since years ago and it's time for a serious second look if so. I feel like this is evidence of living in a bubble. Windows is the dominant OS for anything in a PC form factor (even if you include the iPad Pro in the count).
  - rbanffy 8y ago
    I routinely test software and web applications (and a font) on Windows. It never ceases to amaze me how verbose PowerShell is, or how confusing and convoluted is everything around managing a Windows machine. You have vendor-provided settings panels and widgets for video, network, and wireless, you never quite know what went wrong where and which is the right place to fix it or where do you add a setting. I really don't want that. For most people, the web is the dominant platform and Windows is just what draws Facebook on the monitor.
  - nickjj 8y ago
    I think it's bubble related. I've never been happier using Windows with WSL + Docker for Linux based web development. Things are super stable and the computer I built for ~$750 almost 5 years ago (i5 3.2ghz, 16gb of ram, ssd, decent video card, etc.) still runs as fast as it did on day 1.
- SimbaOnSteroids 8y ago
  Its not even that it doesn't run macOS its that it makes doing _stuff a hassle. Like I wanted to dual boot my gaming rig to also run Linux, and figuring out sdd and hdd partitions and clearing up space on the hard drives was made way more difficult than it needed to be. Had to enter a second shell look up commands for it etc. On a nix machine it was du -sh | sort -h
- daxorid 8y ago
  The biggest problem with Windows is de-facto key escrow. If you want to use BitLocker in W10, you have two options: 1. Escrow your FDE keys with Microsoft Live 2. Go through the hassle of setting up a PDC and escrowing them to your domain. There is no option to NOT escrow your keys to a very LEO-cozy company with a local account. This is an immediate deal-killer, regardless of any other features or improvements.
  - binarycrusader 8y ago
    This does not work quite the way you’ve stated: https://articles.forensicfocus.com/2016/03/23/bitlocker-whats-new-in-windows-10-november-update-and-how-to-break-it/ https://articles.forensicfocus.com/2016/03/23/bitlocker-what... The short version is there are multiple levels of BitLocker functionality and what options are available is dependent upon hardware, group policies, and the Windows Edition installed.
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  Honestly, it sounds like someone who's surly that other people don't like the same thing as them.
gaius 8y ago
Unfortunately, it runs Windows. Not a problem anymore https://gaiustech.wordpress.com/2018/06/16/wsl-is-a-game-changer/ https://gaiustech.wordpress.com/2018/06/16/wsl-is-a-game-cha... I say it every time it comes up, because it’s true, Surface is what Macbooks and iMacs should have been, perhaps would have if Jobs were still around

intellix 8y ago

I guess he got slashdotted

owenwil 8y ago
We're up! It was a weird PHP bug... sorry :)

Karunamon 8y ago

The Surface Book 2 sadly can only run an operating system that invades my privacy, and when it's not doing that, treats me as hostile, and when it's not doing that, is a general UI disaster and pain in the ass to work with. Hardware is becoming increasingly generic and commoditized. It's the absolute least interesting part of the buying decision: does it have the right numbers? More interesting: Can it run the OS I already have and read the data I've spent the better part of a decade working with and collecting without requiring me to spend a bunch of time re-learning how to do basic tasks that are committed deep to muscle memory? How much new software am I going to have to buy? Will that time and money spent result in a productivity improvement substantial enough to offset the opportunity cost? If not, I'm not going to bother. I can't be alone here. Straight comparisons across platforms like the headline does here are never completely legitimate.

WesleyLivesay 8y ago

I would love to see more laptop manufacturers use the 3:2 aspect ratio, especially on screens smaller than 15".

whitepoplar 8y ago
If Apple made a 12-13" laptop with a 3:2, non-glossy display, an all-day battery, and a non-broken keyboard, I'd probably pay double for it.
- bhauer 8y ago
  There needs to be a renaissance of non-glossy (matte) screens, for the sake of the eyesight of us all.
thinkythought 8y ago
There's some interesting budget options like the Chuwi lapbook(both the 12 and 13in versions) that are starting to. I just wish there were more midrange/higher spec options between that and the surface book
ScottBurson 8y ago
It's interesting to see some bounceback after the industry's mad rush to 16:9. I'm very glad that Apple stuck with 8:5, which I greatly prefer. Haven't tried 3:2.

timdorr 8y ago

Cached: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OzE2qbUBetMJ:https://char.gd/blog/2018/the-surface-book-2-is-everything-the-macbook-pro-should-be-and-then-some+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OzE2qb...

cma 8y ago

Just don't put your hand on it: https://www.reddit.com/r/Surface/comments/7of68m/surface_pro_intermittent_pen_inaccuracy_when_hand/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Surface/comments/7of68m/surface_pro... (I still think it is better than MacBook. Just really annoying that they got this wrong)

justherefortart 8y ago
This isn't a Surface Pro.
thinkythought 8y ago
This has been screwed up since they moved away from the original, much MUCH nicer wacom digitizers(which were also more sensitive with the pen). I still haven't heard a legit explanation besides this other than "they're expensive"
- mkl 8y ago
  One reason is that N-Trig works accurately right to the edge of the screen, but Wacom loses quite a lot of precision near the edge and pressure can behave differently there too. That's why Wacom's own Intuos and Cintiq devices have enormous bevels - the pen sensor continues out further.

sinatra 8y ago

Such articles always give too much importance to the hardware (which is somewhat important, no doubt) and not enough importance to the software. Many people are looking for quality alternatives to Macbooks, Mac Mini, etc (myself included). Mac Mini hasn’t been updated for 4-5 years. So, I started setting up a Windows desktop as a Mac Mini replacement. But when it came to finding all the alternatives to the OS X software I was using, and when Windows started showing me notifications about “try Edge,” “give us your valuable feedback,” etc, I went back. If only Ubuntu could have native MS Office (needed for docs from lawyers), Sketch / Adobe products (needed for working with our designers), etc!

justherefortart 8y ago
Configuring software is hard, especially with google available.
maxxxxx 8y ago
Windows 10 is really annoying. Tons of notifications and random stuff preinstalled. Even on the Enterprise version. I also don't like the Edge/IE split. Now we have two half baked browsers. And on my HP blue screens are back. I thought that was a thing of the past.
- tomnipotent 8y ago
  > and random stuff preinstalled It's less horrible if you buy MS hardware like the Surface - only a few games come pre-installed, unlike the misery HP & Dell inflict.
  - hackujin 8y ago
    An OS should not have any bloatware at all. This should not exist and yet it does: https://github.com/W4RH4WK/Debloat-Windows-10 https://github.com/W4RH4WK/Debloat-Windows-10
    - wodenokoto 8y ago

tombert 8y ago

Has anyone managed to get Linux booted on this thing and working well? I've been debating purchasing one, but I am afraid that I'll be stuck with Windows, which, for what I work on, makes hacking pretty difficult. EDIT: Just as a note, I know about WSL (I use it at work), but I would greatly prefer to have Linux working on root. I have a lot of custom systemd setups, and I've become somewhat dependent on XMonad.

bluedino 8y ago
There's a run-down of all the Surface devices here: https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/current_state_of_surfaceseries_devices/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/curren...
sinatra 8y ago
How is your experience with WSL? Do you get stuck in a lot of corner cases with it? Or does it work seamlessly most of the time? Guess not, considering you’d “greatly prefer Linux working on root.”
- tombert 8y ago
  I don't have a big problem with it at work, but at home I tend to go kind of hardcore at home since it makes me feel validated as a geek. I know you can install X on Windows, but I tend to prefer using XMonad with urxvt to navigate at home, so as to minimize my time using a mouse; AFAIK, you can't interop the Windows version of Firefox in my XMonad setup for WSL. I'm not saying I couldn't make an equally productive setup in Windows, but I've come to prefer the setup I have on my personal laptop, which is sadly five years old and finally starting to show its age.
  - strmpnk 8y ago
    You can run window managers just fine with X on windows. I use i3 and bspwm on my surface almost anytime I turn that machine on (I have other Linux laptops I use as well and the config is one rsync away usually). Just be sure that whichever x server you run doesn't run its built in manager. With VcXsrv you can do this via XLaunch.

throwawayqdhd 8y ago

The Surface Book also runs something I never want to deal with again: Windows 10. I can't deal with a software that constantly gets in the way of my work. I gave Windows a lot of tries, but the latest edition was the last straw for me. Never going back.

ghaff 8y ago
I'm inclined to agree and I have Windows, Linux, and MacOS laptops today (as well Chromebooks). The Windows one is actually the most powerful one from a hardware perspective; it's a 17" Alienware. But I mostly prefer to work on my 13" MacBook. I probably could configure the Windows system to be less annoying but the trackpad doesn't really work for me and I still find Windows a bit clunky comparatively. Perhaps if I spent more time with it day to day but I don't have the same feeling with Fedora even though I use it about the same amount. I'm also skeptical about laptop/tablet hybrids. And that's not a comment on Microsoft.I've tried to use my iPad Pro as a laptop replacement when traveling and it really doesn't work for me.
- skinnymuch 8y ago
  iPad Pro is a far different beast from Surfaces. iPad Pro is still just a tablet.
zdragnar 8y ago
I have an original surface book, and linux works more or less flawlessly. Running arch right now, and the only thing that didn't work out of the box was the touch screen. Fortunately, I never use touch screens for anything anyway! The only interesting thing was getting dual booting set up. I goofed. I didn't realize bitlocker was on, encrypting the hard drive, and apparently didn't have a recovery key, which you apparently need if any boot setting is touched at all. As a result, I had to wipe + re-install the whole system, but that was no great loss since everything I really needed was backed up anyway. In fact, I've had fewer problems running arch on the surface book than with my work's dell xps 13, though I'll admit that most of those troubles are due to the dell's USB-C port and linux support in USB-C docks / hubs.
8y ago

maxxxxx 8y ago

How is the trackpad? I have played with the original Surface Book and there it was still far away from my MacBook.

schappim 8y ago
The trackpad is actually better. Apple actually broke their perfect trackpad from the 2016 MBP onwards. I didn’t realise how perfect the Mac’s trackpad previously was until “upgrading” to the 15” MBP with the oversized trackpad that has spurious input whilst typing!
- lcfcjs 8y ago
  Nah you should actually try post 2016 trackpads, still the best you can get.

plandis 8y ago

Is there good driver support for the touchpad and other hardware in Linux?

timdorr 8y ago
There's a good breakdown of all Surface hardware in this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/current_state_of_surfaceseries_devices/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/curren...

bluedino 8y ago

Even less ports. Not upgradeable. Not serviceable. Author wants UNIX tools but Linux doesn't even work correctly with the device yet.

GordonS 8y ago
Plenty of Unix tools work in WSL (and plenty worked through Cygwin before that).
- lghh 8y ago
  Plenty is not enough, unfortunately.

dylrich 8y ago

I am also wondering how Linux runs on this. A Windows-only machine is out of the question for me, but the hardware looks pretty solid. I'll consider buying one if I can get Fedora to play well with it.

Casseres 8y ago
It looks like it can run Linux pretty decently (I might be tempted to give it a try): https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Microsoft_Surface_Book_2 https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Microsoft_Surface_Book_... https://old.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/current_state_of_surfaceseries_devices/ https://old.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/curren...

sebringj 8y ago

What has stuck me to mac is ONLY this...I have to have XCode and Android Studio in one machine. That's it. How do I run XCode in windows or Linux even? I don't want to have to have a mac so I'm all ears.

ChrisLTD 8y ago
You’re stuck forever, unless you want to try to run XCode in a virtual machine.
- sebringj 8y ago
  bloating bloatware dev situation ouch
patrickg_zill 8y ago
Break the EULA and install OS X in a virtual machine.
- sebringj 8y ago
  something like mono has to come out, that would be funny if the tables were turned on macs and they started making shells for windows
SXX 8y ago
Under Linux you can run macOS in QEMU VM. Sometimes you'll need to wait for patches if you need most recent updates, but other than that it work flawlessly. Then if you need 3D you can buy compatible GPU as pass it into VM. That way I could build and test C++ project across all OS under single Linux host. And it's nice to have all major browsers at hand too for web development.

onyva 8y ago

It’s the software, stupid. Nobody wants to go back to windows. Ever.

zerr 8y ago

Windows 7 support?

krylon 8y ago
Strictly speaking, I have no idea. But considering that MS refuses to supply updates to Windows 7 running on current CPUs, I am not very optimistic.
secabeen 8y ago
No. There is no windows 7 support for any CPU after Skylake. As a Kaby Lake CPU, Windows 10 is the only supported version.
freeone3000 8y ago
No. No windows 7 drivers are available for any of the custom hardware bits.

tomxor 8y ago

I hate MS, but this looks like a genuinely nice piece of hardware... I wonder if it can run anything other than Windows without being half broken, then I might be interested. [Edit] Looks like everyone is thinking the same thing :P Now who can we pay to invest a month hacking away at figuring out how to get all the bits of hardware working in Linux? Following the link various others have posted here [1], it looks like the surface book 2 support isn't completely terrible, much better than i expected, but not amazing either... Broken things and things that require more effort are: - Sleep S3 broken - Video is dual nVidia GPU, requires bumblebee - TouchPad and Pen broken, work with a custom Linux kernel - PCI camera(s) not working The touchpad is probably gona be the most annoying one. https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/current_state_of_surfaceseries_devices/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/curren...

arto 8y ago
> Now who can we pay to invest a month hacking away at figuring out how to get all the bits of hardware working in Linux? There is donation information at: https://github.com/jakeday/linux-surface https://github.com/jakeday/linux-surface

mikeymop 8y ago

This does NOT look easy to repair. I'll keep waiting for the new 2012 MBP.

bartq 8y ago

From blogpost: this flipped laptop screen standing next to bigger monitor looks very interesting. If it's close enough to mess up using your fingers, that potentially could be very interesting setup for work. But software seems to be a limiting factor; I'm not aware of apps on screen (a) that would react to changes happening on other screen (b) or even other app window.

collinf 8y ago

> I don't want a serious gaming monstrosity, I just desired something that can do the job well, had great build quality and could run the Unix-based tools I need to use to get through the day while offering reasonable battery life. It's a tall order, but should be feasible. Proceeds to not touch upon a single way the Surface 2 is UNIX-y in any sort of way? I know the WSL is there but the biggest stop for me using anything other than a MBP is that I wouldn't be able to develop without a *nix environment.

alexland 8y ago
He talks more about WSL near the end: > The Bash on Windows environment is now so performant and well supported that you won’t even know the difference if you move from a MacBook, and Microsoft continues to improve it at an impressive clip. > Unless you’re using Xcode, your workflow will almost certainly move from macOS to Windows as a non-event: it’s that good now, and I spend most of my time living in the Bash environment without any problems — even with complicated situations like Symlinks inside Bash now actually working fully.
- schappim 8y ago
  > you won’t even know the difference if you move from a MacBook Just a heads up: IO has some serious bottle necks in WSL that makes it feel quite slow in comparison to my various Macs. M$ is headed in the right direction though!

dizzystar 8y ago

I guess as someone looking for a MacBook alternative within a small limit, doing PHP and design, this sounds great. I recently moved from Linux to MacBook after 7(?) years of Linux an exploratory foray into Windows 10. I simply don't trust the Windows to get out of my way. A simple problem in older Windows was trying to profile for speed. After going through the very slow startup, you gotta keep an eye on what's going to randomly start running. It's a pain, and not having to deal with this is a huge win for Linux and MacOS. In Windows, I turn off an item in startup and what do you know, it's still starting up, not because the machine started, but because I opened up a separate program, because clearly, a program I never use is now convenient because Windows says so. I got this feeling like I don't have any ownership of my computer and OS. Sure, Windows looks nice and is usable, but it feels like I'm renting my operating system, and honestly, MacOS sort of feels the same. It's an odd feeling. Windows 10 seems "good enough" for most people's common use-cases. There really isn't a good reason to spend 2x the money on MacOS over a Windows computer for 95% of users, and even many developers are just fine using Windows. It was an interesting read, and I'm glad the author is enjoying the new computer.

PeCaN 8y ago
>I got this feeling like I don't have any ownership of my computer and OS. Sure, Windows looks nice and is usable, but it feels like I'm renting my operating system, and honestly, MacOS sort of feels the same. It's an odd feeling. I hadn't thought about it this way, but I feel like this too. It's weird. I don't know why. I think it's the presence of stuff I didn't add, the random updates, Microsoft Store ads, etc. I kind of want to go back to Windows 7 just so that I can feel like I really own my computer again.

some_account 8y ago

Really excellent hardware but I'm sad its using Windows because its horrible and it angers me when I use it. If Apple could make a device like this...it would easily be a top seller even with their Apple tax.

camhart 8y ago

Can't use dual 4k monitors with it...

freeone3000 8y ago
You have to chain displayport or use the dock, but yes, they do.

makecheck 8y ago

It’s 2018 and I still see people walking around with Windows laptop lids open because they presumably have no confidence in Windows’ ability to sensibly preserve state after closing the lid. Software matters, and how it integrates with hardware. And I keep waiting for them to fix just the basics in Windows 10. Not utterly losing both the sizes and positions of all windows just because the laptop was undocked. Not failing to recognize the external display upon docking, despite the display working a few minutes earlier. Not completely failing to find files and apps based on how I typed them (“A” brings up “abc” but typing “ab” makes “abc” go away!?). Such a long list.

dzhiurgis 8y ago
Author uses IntelliJ which is a $1000 IDE ghat steals focus as you type in it...
cornellwright 8y ago
These are fair criticisms, but I don't think anybody has this nailed. I use a mix of Windows, Mac, and Linux, and have found myself walking around with the lid open in all three. Mac seems to handle what you describe better than everyone else, but it's far from perfect. I have one monitor that used to work fine on Windows and Mac. After a software update the Mac only recognizes it about 1 in 20 tries of plugging and unplugging.
- ghaff 8y ago
  Macs seem to be pretty good in my experience. It was something I really noticed about them when I first started using about 8 years ago. The only real monitor problem I've had was with an iMac that decided it didn't want to initialize the dual displays properly if the 2nd was plugged in when it was booted. Took me about a day to figure I needed to unplug the 2nd display. Eventually some OS update fixed it. Linux is a lot better than it used to be. I can reliably close the lid on my Lenovo X200 running Fedora. And anecdotally there seem to be fewer people going between meetings with laptops open these days so that's presumably a common experience with RHEL and Fedora on company-issued laptops.

egypturnash 8y ago

I gave the Surface Pro 2 a serious shot last year. Ultimately the deal-killers were (1) Windows, especially Windows’ lack of an equivalent to OSX’s colored Finder tags, which I use to keep track of the status of the hundreds of files involved in drawing comics, and (2) Illustrator had a ton of input lag on the stylus no matter what settings I played with. It came real close though. And if Apple put out something in this form factor I would be putting my order in within a day.

benologist 8y ago

I think Apple should open source macOS so it can be decoupled from their hardware, or just start cloning it in open source against their wishes as was done to Windows. Otherwise it's time we let macOS go because Apple plans for it to run iOS apps and to use their iOS processors in their computers, so we and our tools and software are approaching obsolete and when iOS devices can compile apps we will start being redundant too. Even if they released new hardware for us tomorrow it would be coupled with iOS processors and how many generations of having both processors can we really expect? Until server ARM processors are compatible with iOS processors we are eventually going to lose parity with all the server software that made MacBooks good developer platforms too.

lcfcjs 8y ago
LOL yeah they should also just give out MBP's for free while they're at it.
bwbw223 8y ago
It’s not to directly run iOS apps, but to make it easy to adapt them. We also don’t have any evidence of a change in processors. Please stop presenting speculation as facts.
- benologist 8y ago
  You're right we have no evidence of them working on iOS-based computers. But obviously anything future-looking is speculation. The only two Macs they have upgraded in years were upgraded to include iOS processors that already inherited some macOS responsibilities. Everything else is very stagnant for so long the blogger sought a successor, despite Apple having great options from Intel and AMD and infinite resources.
s73v3r_ 8y ago
"I think Apple should open source macOS so it can be decoupled from their hardware, or just start cloning it in open source against their wishes as was done to Windows." Why on earth would Apple want to remove one of their biggest competitive advantages? "Otherwise it's time we let macOS go because Apple plans for it to run iOS apps and to use their iOS processors in their computers, so we and our tools and software are approaching obsolete and when iOS devices can compile apps we will start being redundant too." Citation Needed. They have a toolkit that will allow iOS apps to be recompiled to macOS apps. That's about it. "Even if they released new hardware for us tomorrow it would be coupled with iOS processors and how many generations of having both processors can we really expect?" What the hell is an "iOS processor"?

txsh 8y ago

Doesn’t run MacOS. That’s all I need to know.

schappim 8y ago

I have to second this. We are an all Mac company, but service customers on Windows. For testing purposes, our company purchased a Surface Laptop (not a Surface Book), and I was blown away by the quality coming out of Microsoft. As I use the Surface Laptop, I wish Apple would steal the design and apply it to a new MacBook Air. The screen is excellent, and coming from the Mac world it is surprisingly how good having a touch screen is. Battery life is great and smashes my 15” 2016 MacBook Pro. It reminds me of the good old days of MacBook Air (all day) battery life. The keyboard has travel, but I had to swap around the “Windows Key” and “Ctl key” to stop going mad (I have 19 years of macOS shortcut muscle memory). Microsoft reminds us that you can still have a USB-A port and SD Card Slot in a nice form factor. It is possible to escape the #DongleLife . My only gripes are 1) Windows still pales in comparison to OS X 2) the power supply is proprietary (I really like USB-C chargers).

thirdsun 8y ago
I guess most people, even in HN circles, agree that Microsoft as well as other PC manufacturers like Dell (XPS) or Lenovo (Thinkpad) can built beautiful, high quality hardware, but as you already state in your last sentence, that's not the problem at all. Windows is. Or the lack of macOS, for those of us that can't use Linux fulltime.

ricardobeat 8y ago

I feel like I read the same article three times. To match Ars you need more content, not just being prolific.

jrs95 8y ago

It really isn't everything the MacBook Pro should be. It's got an underpowered CPU due to thermal/power constraints of most of the computer being in a tablet form factor, and you're still limited at 16GB of RAM which really blows for a $3000 laptop in the age of Electron.

cncrnd 8y ago

People don't consider reliability as much as they should when they buy a device. The Surface line has been known for poor reliability, with nearly a quarter of customers being affected for some products. The time spent investigating an issue, arranging a repair, sending a device in, setting up on a backup device, and communicating with repairmen only to get an unfixed product back approaches a couple of days of lost productivity. Rules out the Surface Book 2 in my eyes.

partiallypro 8y ago
I've had 5 Surface devices and have never had any major issues. The biggest issue I ever had with one was dropping it and shattering its screen. I didn't have coverage on it, but Microsoft replaced it all for about $300.
- cncrnd 8y ago
  Good for you. However, consumer reports gave a two-year breakage rate of 25% for Surface products. Given a 75% everything-is-ok rate, that gives you around a reasonable 25% chance (.75^5) that everything is ok with 5 devices, illustrating why anecdotes are not helpful in decision making.
  - partiallypro 8y ago
    Consumer Reports also didn't use actual return/replacement rates with Surface devices, and included in their breakage rate things that are easily attributable to a Windows Update.
    - cncrnd 8y ago
      It's still a negative indicator of reliability. I'm sure the breakage rate for other devices also includes software related issues, and I would expect less windows update issues on a Microsoft device than a third party manufacturer device. The difference in hardware reliability might even be greater than it appears accounting for the possible software compatibility advantage.

consto 8y ago

I am soon to be in the market and this is tempting me.

j45 8y ago

If MacOS ran smoothly and received all updates on the Surface Pro or Surface Book, I would likely be running one of those devices. Hackintoshes are progressing - not sure if it can be production grade from a seamless patching perspective.

jason_slack 8y ago

I have tried both the Surface Book 1 and Surface Book 2 in order to switch from a MacBook Pro due to hardware and software quality issues. In both SB1 and SB2 Microsoft had to swap out each version 3 times before they asked me to just return it and perhaps look for another model. Why? It would shutdown randomly, I could not enable developer mode, Windows update would just throw errors and Microsoft could not solve it. Office would reinstall itself every 2-3 reboots. All issues were reproduced at a Microsoft Retail store location. I do feel Microsoft is headed in the right direction, but they are not quite there yet. This being said Microsoft had regained my respect over the last few years after losing it in the late 90's, early 2000's.

funwie 8y ago

I think it will make more sense to compare hardwares at same level. 300$ or 1000$ PC to 2000$ Mac seems odd, isn’t it? Buy a PC with same price tag as a Mac. Use and then feedback.

NicoJuicy 8y ago

Or, how the one with the biggest market share became the underdog. Other example, Surface Studio: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-studio/overview https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-stud...

twodayslate 8y ago

I only reason I have a Mac is for Xcode. This can't be replaced on Windows.

0xcafecafe 8y ago
Its funny you mention that as Xcode is the reason I can't develop on my macbook. I prefer visual studio. To each their own I guess.
- lostgame 8y ago
  It's not about preference, it's about necessity...some of us need native iOS/MacOS development, it's part of our job. And for better or mostly for worse in the present moment, a MacBook Pro is really the only way to have xCode and Android Studio on one device in a decent manner.

alanfranzoni 8y ago

If you can stand Windows, there're tons of good laptops around. If you can live with Linux, there're some few decent laptops. If you want MacOS... you're a bit screwed, today.

SeanLuke 8y ago

> The Surface Book 2 is everything the MacBook Pro should be ... does this mean it runs OS X? Because for me that's all that matters. Otherwise it's nothing the MacBook Pro should be.

dpkonofa 8y ago
Same. Windows is such a steaming pile of shit for me that I sometimes forget it's not normal for people to reformat and reinstall their OS every 6 months pre-emptively. I do a ton of development on new hardware and, most recently, various VR platforms and the number of driver conflicts and issues I have on Windows is staggering. For the brief fart of time that MacOS was supported, I never had issues. Now, I can't update my Oculus software without it causing the Vive to stop working completely. Why one piece of software can completely eff a separate piece of hardware is beyond me but it's not only possible but also frequent with Windows.

noir_lord 8y ago

I looked at the surface book but ended up going with the T470P (i7-7700HQ/2560x1440) because it allowed me to put 32GB of RAM in it, 16Gb just isn't enough for my workflow (If I have a Win10 instance running in a VM for VS2017, a couple of vagrant instances and intellij open then I can eat 16GB in no time). Also I've been a Linux user for development for >10 years and a mixed linux/windows user for another 10 or so before that, simply not giving up Linux at this point. However pretty it was (and it was) 16Gb just isn't enough for me.

slantyyz 8y ago
Laptops with 128GB RAM are now a thing [1]... in case you find yourself wanting more than 32GB [1] https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/laptops-with-128gb-of-ram-are-here/ar-AAyAJm3 https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/laptops-with-128gb...
sridca 8y ago
I went with P71, running NixOS on it. The perfect development machine (with a 5k monitor to boot); way better than what MacOS or Windows can achieve.
- noir_lord 8y ago
  I looked at the P series, nice machines will probably look at one of those next but I think I'll get some life out the T470P yet.
  - acangiano 8y ago
    I have a P51, and I just bought a Pixelbook because the P51 is a great machine but not really a laptop. See here: https://programmingzen.com/google-pixelbook-review/ https://programmingzen.com/google-pixelbook-review/
    - noir_lord 8y ago
      That was what drew me to the T470P absurdly fast little machine, 200+ dpi screen and upgradeable ram and storage. I like the 14” as a step between 13 and 15 as well.

itomato 8y ago

Alcantara and touchscreen? Pass.

jdmichal 8y ago
Only Surface Laptop has alcantara... This is about the Surface Book 2.

bcheung 8y ago

I tried to switch from Mac back to PC and got the original Surface Book a few years ago. I really liked the detachable screen but otherwise I didn't find it very useable. The trackpad didn't register clicks a lot of the time and I had to press very hard when dragging so it didn't disengage. It was a bit too flimsy when typing on your lap. Also, all the weight is in the screen so touching the screen and using the keyboard means that you have to grab the back of the screen when pressing so you don't push the screen. I wasn't happy with the performance either being that I needed something that could process RAW photos and do video editing. For general web browsing and coding I think it could work well. I recently got the Dell XPS 15" and am working on converting my programming and photography workflows to Windows. So far everything seems to be going smoothly. Windows Subsystem for Linux really makes a difference and most stuff I've tried works flawlessly without change.

sigzero 8y ago

Almost every single review on YouTube for the Surface Book 2 says the same thing..."Way too expensive for what you get."

chaostheory 8y ago
Yeah I would have a hard time justifying it because there are plenty of decent alternatives. With Mac OS, you have no choice. Even with all of its bugs, it's just really hard to get away from MacOS. This is switching from Windows years ago.

AdeptusAquinas 8y ago

It wasn't until reading this that I learnt I could charge my Book with its USB C port. Mind blown.

itomato 8y ago

Windows 10 behaves so much like Windows 95 I'm embarrassed for Microsoft. Anything that seems remotely intuitive coming from a Mac means I'm thrust back into that antiquated mode of thinking and working. Be warned, these anecdotes come from experiences with company-issued equipment. Need to work with cross-platform files or bootstrap a development environment? Still running back to Cygwin. Need some sort of ability to edit ASCII text files? Good luck with that. Working with an .xz or .gz tarball? Take this malware-infested junk and muddle through. Click on the minuscule little icon to expose ten more minuscule icons which are absolutely essential to get anything done. One thing I can say is improved; up-arrow command history. That's about all I can see. Oh, and the old nit about pressing 'Ctrl-Alt-Del' to log in.

ballenf 8y ago

Anyone else have experience in this aspect: > I’ve written about web development on Windows 10 before, but even since a year ago it’s come such a long way. The Bash on Windows environment is now so performant and well supported that you won’t even know the difference if you move from a MacBook, and Microsoft continues to improve it at an impressive clip. > Unless you’re using Xcode, your workflow will almost certainly move from macOS to Windows as a non-event: it’s that good now, and I spend most of my time living in the Bash environment without any problems — even with complicated situations like Symlinks inside Bash now actually working fully. [emphasis mine] Good for Microsoft if so, but I have to wonder if it's one of those situations where everything works well until you hit a brick wall and have to re-setup everything on Mac/Linux to stay productive. This comment bothered me: > Generally, the sticking point for designers is Sketch, which to date refuses to build a Windows client — a ridiculous, anti-user move that I hope eventually will cause people to reconsider it in their workflows. Especially from a developer, that seems like a very uncharitable, demanding interpretation. Is there more to the story? Maybe the author being a web developer influences that view or he just loves Sketch and is bitter to have left it behind.

mixmastamyk 8y ago

Re: the screen Drives me crazy there are no more 16:9 tablets where I watch Netflix, but am forced to use 16:9 monitors on my PC where I need more vertical space to get work done. Industry has it bass-ackwards.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

paulie_a 8y ago

Can I install real Ubuntu on either? Then for that reason I am out on both.

ChuckMcM 8y ago

I have a "good" Macbook pro (2015 Retina MBP) and a Surface Book and prefer the Surface Book for many of the same reasons the author does. (because I have poor impulse control I also have an iPad pro :-). For development, the Surface with the Dock is just killer for me. On the road the iPad has the longest battery life and I use it in a consumption only mode but if I'm doing development I'll bring the Surface as well. From a personal perspective it just feels like Microsoft is spending more of their attention to developers than Apple is over the last few years and their tools reflect that.

jimmcslim 8y ago

I wish this had Thunderbolt 3, which it doesn’t have (contrary to what the article says I think). Hopefully the Surface Book 3 will!

mbell 8y ago

The Surface Book 2 has a 15W CPU in it, which is the power class of the CPU in a Macbook Air. Unless you have a workload that is highly GPU dependent but makes little use of the CPU, the SB2 and MBP aren't even in the same performance class.

mikecx 8y ago

For me it's still software, the hardware is definitely solid. My experience is from when Windows 10 first came out so maybe it's all fixed now. The process to upgrade involved waiting for the bubble to pop-up in the bottom right. It didn't after a week so I had to search out the command line incantation to make it show up. Once I got it to show up, it did nothing until the 5th or 6th restart. Once it started to install it took 3 days, running constantly, on a brand new Surface Book. After that I remained unsold on Windows yet again.

madushan92 8y ago

I don’t really understand the value of a touch screen on a laptop. Specially for a Software Developer. It is easier and quicker to move your hand (while typing) to the touch pad rather than to the display. I think TouchBar (which is underrated) makes sense because in that case you don’t need to move your hand up, it just is there along with the keyboard. Plus I really don’t like those huge touch-optimised buttons on Windows. A laptop is meant to be used with a mouse pointer which is much much more precise than a finger, hence allowing macOS to display smaller buttons maximising screen realestate.

hugs 8y ago
A touch screen on MacOS would make sense if you're an iOS developer. You could quickly test touch interactions directly in the iOS Simulator without having to send the app to a phone or tablet.
zeroxfe 8y ago
It's fantastic for pretty much any kind of design work. Even you're a software developer building UIs and web interfaces and such. Also great for kids (who generally have less developed motor skills.)
- smt88 8y ago
  What kind of design work? I don't understand how something laggier than a pencil/pen and less precise than a mouse can be useful. I actually hated doing design work because of the hours of incredibly precise mouse movements required.
  - cma 8y ago
    It has to be a big help when developing a phone or tablet app.
humblebee 8y ago
The only time I've actually like having a touch screen is when reading. I commonly hold my laptop near the hinge and being able to swipe on the screen to scroll is fun. Otherwise I don't think I've actually ever used a touch screen for any other kind of input.

dxxvi 8y ago

If you want to save more screen estate, switch to Linux. For example, openbox (a window manager) can hide the top panel of any window based on the class, group class, title, .... properties of that window.

ianwalter 8y ago

It's a nice piece of hardware in general but give me a break with that title.

soyiuz 8y ago

Serious question: was this post paid for by MS in any way? It certainly reads like a promoted piece and the author is in marketing. The preponderance of superlatives is particularly concerning.

cpeth 8y ago

Most posts here are going to mention MacOS as the key feature that will always keep them on Mac hardware. That is understandable, people are comfortable with it. I currently use it for work and am not impressed(just as I was last time in 2014), having always used Linux and sometimes Windows. The only reason I haven't bootcamped Ubuntu is that all of our conference rooms are set up to display via AirPlay(proprietary). I don't want to be the one always hunting for the HDMI dongle (yes it's a mid-2015 MacBook Pro that still has that). -Why is there a global menu bar? With multiple monitors we have 10+ application visible at one time. Why do I need to select one first to then use a menu action instead of just clicking on it like GNOME / Windows -Why are there command/option keys instead of ctrl/alt? This seems like pointless we-are-different-and-special stuff -Why does clicking X (close on an application) just minimize it instead of killing it? But yet minimizing it just puts it in a separate area of the dock? -Why does trying to snap windows to the sides of the monitor throw it into full-screen mode and create a new workspace that then fucks with my ability to overlap windows or alt-tab? -Why does spotlight (CMD + Space) only find one option? Why isn't it part of launchpad? -brew sucks compared to apt and snap but it is better than choclatey -you still need a VM to run docker -you need non-apple hardware to have a back button on the mouse (I loathe the magic mouse 2) For all the devotion it gets for being a modern *NIX development platform, it's solid but not overwhelmingly great. Give Linux and Win10 a try, I am finding them equal these days. Hardware wise, a laptop without a Thunderbolt port these days is just a deal-breaker. There is no excuse for Surface Book 2 to not have one. It's the reason I chose the Dell XPS 15 2-in-1 over it (and saved $400 in doing so). I was a fan of Surface Book 1 and bought one, it served me well. MS is doing good stuff.

neya 8y ago

I am a die hard Mac fan. I upgraded from Windows and never looked back. Recently, I thought Windows might have improved over the years and decided to give it a shot with my girlfriend's Windows 10 laptop and it was because she wanted me to setup a new user account for her. And you wouldn't believe me if I told you that it's near impossible to create a normal user account without a Microsoft Live account along with it. You need to google for it and find some specific workflow to make it happen. I felt so outraged and I totally lost all trust and confidence in MS. It felt really a cheap and scammy way to get more people into their walled gardens. It's a shame because I really wanted to give Windows a chance. Now imagine, if Apple had forced you to use an Apple ID to sign into your Mac. How outraged you'd feel? Having said that, I think the Surface series have a far superior design than any of my Macs. I sometimes feel jealous when I see these guys in coffeeshops playing with it by directly interacting with its screen and the sleek keyboard that comes with it. Ever since then, I've been seriously investigating if there's a way to get Mac OS run on a Surface almost flawlessly. That'd be the perfect laptop for me.

wvenable 8y ago
> Now imagine, if Apple had forced you to use an Apple ID to sign into your Mac. How outraged you'd feel? Have you ever used iOS? Microsoft is maybe a little ahead of the game here but I have little doubt it will come to the Mac as well. I have a normal user account without a Microsoft live account; this was several Win10 versions ago but it wasn't too hard to do -- just an option during setup. You can even connect and disconnect them from each other at will. Or just you use your account in the store.
com2kid 8y ago
> And you wouldn't believe me if I told you that it's near impossible to create a normal user account without a Microsoft Live account along with it. You need to google for it and find some specific workflow to make it happen. The button is labeled "Add a user without a Microsoft account", I found it rather quickly, never having looked for it. The flow certainly is focused on MS account creation though. I remember in Windows 8, having to look up on Google how to link my MS account! (For me, I appreciate the change, I have enough grandfathered in OneDrive storage that I'm a happy camper.) All of my other computing devices require an account. PCs are trying to hold out. Linux obviously does not, and Apple requires an account login to access a lot of the services that come with the OS.

robbiet480 8y ago

The thing that is consistently keeping me tied to the Mac is iMessage (and Xcode, but that can be more easily solved). Yes, I have my iPhone, but writing on Messages for Mac is just so much easier because full keyboard.

nayuki 8y ago

I want to like this laptop, but the lack of a Right Ctrl key is a dealbreaker for me. There are many keyboard shortcuts that I need to press on the right side, like Ctrl+I or Ctrl+L, using only one hand.

lord_ring_111 8y ago

Except for shitty OS callled windows.

ggm 8y ago

Apple don't want you to, but don't actually impede you installing native Linux. I believe the surface is locked hardware but I'd be delighted to be told I'm wrong.

kart23 8y ago
No, they're equally bad in this respect. The newest MBP does not work well with linux (wifi, audio, etc), and this surface book seems like it also has a few problems with linux. If I could actually use linux on the newest MBP, I would've bought it in a heartbeat.
- ggm 8y ago
  I did them a misservice: https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/6eau79/current_state_of_surfaces/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/6eau79/curren...

draw_down 8y ago

How’s the trackpad? Better be good!