53 ms·

Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

812 points by hw 8y ago

ohnoesmyscv 8y ago
When will US cities do the same? Most restaurants offer plastic togo containers, which ends up in the landfill. Some restaurants even use plastic bowls and plates for dine-in customers, arguably so they don’t have to invest in equipment and labor to wash dishes. With The China recycling ban, this becomes more of a pressing issue. I’m surprised cities aren’t outright banning or imposing a tax on the use of plastics at restaurants.
- makecheck 8y ago
  It needs to become fashionable to basically carry lots of reusable stuff with you. We “sort of” have this for coffee containers and shopping bags but it would be good if people could also always carry a metal fork, plate, cup, and even a reusable napkin at all times. It’s one of those things that would remain weird if only a few people did it but wouldn’t be weird if most people did. It would also require eating establishments to be set up for reuse, e.g. washing stations for people to clean off their stuff.
  - narag 8y ago
    Not sure I understood. Do you suggest that everybody carries their own cutlery to restaurants? Why? What's the relation with disposable stuff? Can't (don't most) restaurants have their own reusable stuff? I like plastic banning, as soon as it's in place all around, we'll see another non-contaminant material (only a little more expensive) replacing plastic.
    - tonyarkles 8y ago
      Cutlery I would imagine being for takeout food, or fast food where there’s often plastic cutlery (around here at least). Even when dining in, though, my wife and I have been trying to remember to bring our own Tupperware containers for bring home any leftovers, instead of using the typical provided styrofoam packaging.
      - hw 8y ago
        I don't quite understand why plastic cutlery for takeout food is necessary. Maybe if you're bringing it back to your office for lunch where you don't have access to cutlery (although you could always bring your own). I see families taking out food for home where they have cutlery and yet they take the plastic cutlery from the restaurants. It's ridiculous and it just highlights how humans value the convenience of just eating with plastic cutlery and throwing it away after eating, over the environment
    - hw 8y ago
      I've seen restaurants where they serve most of their food in plastic containers even for dine in customers. Most poke places for example always use a plastic bowl that patrons just throw away after they're done, along with plastic cutlery. Some restaurants serve water in cups with a plastic straw, which is also totally unnecessary.
      - narag 8y ago
        Oh, I see... that's very unfortunate. The only kind of "restaurant" that does this shit over here is McDonalds (and similar US franchises) and it makes me shake my head. Do you know what's infuriating? They're now going all "green" in some spots. But instead of avoiding creating all the trash to begin with, they put it on you, providing four of five different cans for every type of trash, and patronizing signs on the walls so you work for them classifying and cleaning their shit.
        hw 8y ago
        The issues with the different cans, is that they need to be re-sorted manually anyway (usually by the city), since not everyone puts the right stuff in the right bins. All it does is it just gives the impression that the business is 'green'
  - eesmith 8y ago
    Why would that help? Let's take going to a salad bar or buffet. Many health rules say that only clean plates may be used. For example, from http://EzineArticles.com/1402314 http://EzineArticles.com/1402314 : > There must be clean plates and other tableware at or adjacent to the buffet or salad bar and customers should be reminded, or notified if need be, that only clean tableware is to be used when returning to the buffet. Most restaurants are "set up for reuse", i.e, they wash the utensils, plates, and cups already. They are set up to do this wholesale, and there are health codes concerning the quality of the cleaning. Eg, quoting from https://www.oregon.gov/oha/ph/HealthyEnvironments/FoodSafety/Documents/foodsanitationrulesweb.pdf https://www.oregon.gov/oha/ph/HealthyEnvironments/FoodSafety... : > If hot water is used for sanitization in manual warewashing operations, the sanitizing compartment of the sink shall be: (A) Designed with an integral heating device that is capable of maintaining water at a temperature not less than 77oC (171 oF); Pf and (B) Provided with a rack or basket to allow complete immersion of equipment and utensils into the hot water. This is enough to scald someone in a fraction of a second (see http://www.accuratebuilding.com/services/legal/charts/hot_water_burn_scalding_graph.html http://www.accuratebuilding.com/services/legal/charts/hot_wa... ). The hot water temperature in most homes is under 120 degrees F. If you have "washing stations for people to clean off their stuff", then it will either use chemical treatments, or it will be at too low a temperature to meet health standards, or it will require specialized equipment and time - who is going to wait, say, 5 minutes for their dirty dishes to go through a commercial dishwasher, get cleaned, and cool down again? I just don't see the benefits or even practicality of what you propose.
    - bluesroo 8y ago
      With enough pressure I could see a reusable-dishes-as-a-service type company. A restaurant could pay this service $x per month and the service would come daily to drop off clean containers and pick up used containers for cleaning and sterilization. Restaurants could have a deposit upon getting a meal, say $3. When you bring your containers back you get your $3 back (or $3 towards your next meal there?). If multiple restaurants in your area used the same service, or if the dishes were standardized enough, then you could drop off your used dishes at multiple different places whenever you get take-out again. Obviously this is "in an ideal world" thinking, but it seems like with enough economic pressure on the take-out industry it could start being feasible.
  - QasimK 8y ago
    That’s not very convenient. I like another suggestion in this thread: standardised components. Have shops hand out reusable metal cutlery rather than disposable plastic cutlery with a deposit scheme. You pay a few quid for the cutlery, but can return it anywhere and get your money back. The key is to make it ubiquitous, which makes it effortless for people. You could still offer plastic disposable cutlery for those that needed it for some reason - but have a (small) charge. That should be sufficient to massively cut down the plastic waste. The UK introduced a 5p plastic bag charge which was really effective despite it being so cheap. I realised I’m writing this as I’m eating a take-out lunch with a plastic fork. I have to trash it, but could very easily have used a returnable fork. It came in a paper bag which I can take back to the office and recycle. Edit: Thinking about it, if having your own cutlery is a habit then it might not be so inconvenient.
- weavie 8y ago
  An American family I visited a while ago would use paper plates and plastic forks for every meal at home to save on dishes. I was shocked, but they seemed to think it was standard behaviour in the US. Is it?
  - eesmith 8y ago
    For some families, yes, it is.
    - weavie 8y ago
      Any idea on the demographics?
      - eesmith 8y ago
        No. Simply that I've visited people (I'm from the US) who do that.
      - tfolbrecht 8y ago
        It's common in the rural southern United States. Big box stores sell hundreds of plates and napkins for a few dollars. The justifications I've heard is that it's a lot of labor saved if the family is sufficiently large and the woman is expected to do all the cooking and cleaning.
  - alkonaut 8y ago
    > to save on dishes To save what, money or labor? I fail to see how this could be economical in the sense "cheaper"?
    - weavie 8y ago
      I believe labour, all that time spent scrubbing plates...
      - Cthulhu_ 8y ago
- wetpaws 8y ago
  California does this to a certain degree.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- snarf21 8y ago
  I think it is even more important to ban micro plastics which have invaded our food supply and are ingested with even bigger negative consequences.
simion314 8y ago
A tax seems the fair solution, if it costs X to dispose of a plastic bottle then tax X each bottle, use the money to dispose of the bottle, adjust X if costs change.
- alkonaut 8y ago
  I don't think the cost is known. If the consequence is microplastics in the oceans it's probably so high that any number assigned as the cost is equivalent to a ban. You wouldn't buy a $10 plastic bag at the grocery store.
  - simion314 8y ago
    It is like a ban but I think it has the advantage that does not make things illegal so you don't get the "state tells me what to do" people complaining because you explain it is a fair "capitalist/free market" measure. Y0u are right that is hard to measure the exact costs, but we don't measure how much it costs if the bottle lands in water but how much it costs to have the bottle collected and placed in the right place(some special disposable facilities) this will mean have the stores implement ways to collect the bottles to be properly disposed, you can add Y on top of the cost and return it to the customer when the bottle is restored to have most of the objects returned , though I know some people will not like to keep the empty bottles and bring them back to the store
    - tehwebguy 8y ago
      It’s not about the cost
- dingaling 8y ago
  But such a tax gives no incentive for companies to change their packaging. The tax is paid by the customer who usually has few or no options. For example in the UK plastic one-litre milk pitcher bottles are ubiquitous. Even the few remaining door-to-door milkmen deliver them, instead of the old one-pint reusable glass bottles. I simply can't buy fresh milk in anything else and i have a recycling bin full of them. Reverting to glass would add weight, breakages and collection costs to the companies. So they wouldn't have any incentive to change under a tax scheme when they don't pay it. Only a ban will change their behaviour.
1ba9115454 8y ago
Great. Let's roll this out everywhere. Actually it would be nice to do something about cigeratte butts too.
- sleepychu 8y ago
  Just ban cigarettes? They're ridiculous, I don't understand why we allow them.
  - sumedh 8y ago
    > I don't understand why we allow them. because some people like them. Should we ban Alcohol, fast food and sugar as well?
    - Cthulhu_ 8y ago
      People like cocaine too; enjoyment of something isn't grounds to keep it legal. Smoking (and alcohol) just can't be made illegal now; the US tried that for a couple of years, and all it managed to do was give rise to organized crime and illegal (and dangerous) manufacture of alcohol. In my country, smoking and alcohol are more passively discouraged; high taxes, a ban on advertising, strict age checks, and (for smoking, lately) shocking imagery, removal of brands, removal of any kind of interesting packaging, and (most recently) a ban on displaying it. I mean I'd still be in favor of outright banning it already, because all of these measures are just idk, weird, but at the same time criminalising it would cause more problems than the current measures.
      - sumedh 8y ago
        Cocaine should made legal too, with all the measures which you listed. If people like something, they will try anything to get it, if its illegal is just goes underground.
        dingo_bat 8y ago
        I don't understand this logic. We tax alcohol and cigarettes. We ban cocaine. And look at the result: hundreds of millions addicted to smoking, but almost zero usage of cocaine. Looks like a ban is a good way to curtail usage. Which is what we want, right?
andrewstuart 8y ago
Thank goodness somewhere is taking the obvious action of banning the packaging, which is really just pre-garbage. However, banning packaging only works if it is backed by a system for precisely standardised, refundable and washable containers that food and other products can be shipped in. You can't just say "no packaging". We need a MUCH better form of packaging than disposable/recyclable because recycling only works a little bit to solve the problem of packaging turning into garbage. That better form is re-usable standardised containers.
- WalterBright 8y ago
  Better to use paper packaging. For food it can be waxed like in the olden days.
  - 0xFFC 8y ago
    Doesn’t paper bags literally mean demand for more papers and consequently more jungle would be destroyed?
    - thomaslangston 8y ago
      It is my understanding that paper isn't made from jungle tree species. An increased demand for paper would lead to an increase in tree farms in temperate climates, not tropical.
    - ainiriand 8y ago
      Not really, new paper is mostly produced from recycled paper. What destroys the jungle is deforestation to create farmlands.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
        I didn't down vote you. Just want to point out that deforestation to create farmlands also includes tree plantations. Tree farms, as it were. I live in Tasmania, which is notorious for chopping down old-growth forest, wood chip it mostly for paper products, and replace it with plantation timber.
piyushpr134 8y ago
Great to see that my city, Mumbai, is setting an example here. Plastic ban is a no brainer. People must move to either biodegradable carry bags and packaging or move to jute/steel/metal bags/utensils etc. Plastic would choke our world one day otherwise. At the same time, I know it would be huge pain for a lot of people. In Mumbai, it rains really heavy. Like really really heavy. It rains more than 2x it rains in London and that too in just 4 months. So for a lot of people, plastic is literally the roof they need. Zoom in on Mumbai and you would see many shanties with blue "roof"s. That is all plastic. Hope municipality will allow such plastic sheets as they are not single use.
- Tepix 8y ago
  Getting rid of single-use plastic would be a great first step.
- nowarninglabel 8y ago
  Agreed, this is great, though I'm in Nairobi and they have banned plastic last year, setting a great example.
- sumedh 8y ago
  Doesnt Mumbai do that every couple of years and the the whole thing fizzles out and then some new bureaucrat tries it again. This is from 2009 http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/dec/30/bmc-plans-to-ban-plastic-bags-in-mumbai.htm http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/dec/30/bmc-plans-to-b...
  - denzil_correa 8y ago
    In Mumbai (and India), law enforcement is a huge challenge regardless of the laws.
    - kamaal 8y ago
      What makes this issue worse is the existence of bullshit impractical laws, such as this.
  - 8y ago
kamaal 8y ago
Officially, :) In reality we all know how this will go. If anything plastic use may now increase. Because it will now go unregulated. Bans in India need to be taken with a pinch of salt. They banned tinted glasses on cars. In Bangalore, some people prefer to pay fine/bribe than remove the sticker.
- Dawny33 8y ago
  >If anything plastic use may now increase. Because it will now go unregulated. How?
  - kamaal 8y ago
    Ban by definition implies deregulation and tax breaks(You can't tax things that shouldn't even exist) This helps the black markets immensely.
- rubzah 8y ago
  Agree. Anyone who has been to India knows how small a role regulations play in everyday life. Nobody cares. At most this will give a couple of corrupt police officers another opportunity to hand out 'fines'.
  - aryamaan 8y ago
    I think the time will tell and it's better than having no regulations at all. Btw, the consumption of alcohol in Bihar and other states where it's prohibated has reduced significantly- I am not advocating the ban of alcohol, personally I feel it's as a wrong move- after the regulations.
    - thewhitetulip 8y ago
      Pray tell me how you found out that Bihar's alcohol ban has worked out? I was under the impression that there is a vibrant black market in Bihar too
      - 8y ago
sbmthakur 8y ago
This is a Maharashtra wide ban. It's being strictly implemented in my neighborhood(a Mumbai suburb).
- thewhitetulip 8y ago
  Truth be told, this came quote late. A friend of mine told me that the town of alibag banned plastics few years back. Of course they are a tourism based economy
WalterBright 8y ago
I'm a heavy amazon user, and am disappointed that they haven't eliminated plastic from the packaging. They use those inflatable plastic balloons (which are still far better than styrofoam peanuts), and they inexplicably use plastic bubblewrap mailers. On the news today they reported the tons of recyclable paper that nobody knows what to do with. It could be shredded and used for packaging instead of plastic.
- jakobegger 8y ago
  It depends. In Austria, almost all Amazon stuff comes in a cardboard envelope, without any plastic.
- dssfgsgsgsdgds 8y ago
  Where does the paper come from? Shouldn't that source also be eliminated? What is worse, cutting down trees or using plastic?
majewsky 8y ago
Honest question: What will plastic bottles be replaced with that's more environmentally friendly? I can easily see plastic bags being replaced by jute bags, but the only alternative material for bottles that I know of is glass, which does not seem like a good alternative given its weight and fragility (and possibly energy use during production).
- matt4077 8y ago
  I suspect that only single-use bottles are banned. The sturdier, reusable plastic bottles, with a deposit encouraging returns, should be the best option in terms of energy and material over its lifetime.
  - Arnt 8y ago
    The headline of the article says as much ;)
- bladecatcher 8y ago
  http://www.algopack.com/indexgb.php http://www.algopack.com/indexgb.php makes bottles out of seaweed (brown algae) and there're other companies trying to make reuseable bioplastic bottles out of sugarcane
  - bpicolo 8y ago
    > reuseable bioplastic bottles That's not any better if they still don't degrade, no?
    - hammock 8y ago
      Bioplastic (PLA) is biodegradable in a commercial facility, unlike petroleum-based bottle plastic (PET)
      - saagarjha 8y ago
        The key point being that someone has to get the bottle back to the facility instead of throwing it in the trash, or worse, littering.
sschueller 8y ago
I think this is a good step but what a lot of countries lack is also proper disposal of trash. Landfills are a poor solution, better are clean trash burning facilities[1] that also produce energy as well as proper pre sorting. China is building the largest in the world which is to open in 2020. [2] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/13/science/earth/13trash.html https://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/13/science/earth/13trash.htm... [2] https://www.sciencealert.com/china-is-building-the-largest-waste-to-energy-plant-in-the-world https://www.sciencealert.com/china-is-building-the-largest-w...
- protonfish 8y ago
  The "ban single-use plastic" hype train seems illogical to me. Having your city littered with garbage is a government services problem - they should provide convenient waste disposal receptacles, empty them frequently to be disposed of properly, and give citations to litterers. We should not be cheering this short-sighted law. I also don't understand why plastic in a landfill is all that bad. The fact that it is biodegradable is a positive here - it won't break down into toxic substances. Evaluating environmental impact is a complex process. Everything we do has multiple consequences. I believe global warning is the most serious environmental disaster we are facing today. Plastics use significantly less energy in production and transportation (because of lower weight and less material needed.) With an eye toward AGW, how can paper packaging and burning refuse be seen as a responsible choice? It is critical that we consider the effects of our consumption habits in a serious and reasonable fashion. I just don't see the anti-plastic panic to be rational or constructive.
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    Its less cheap (in energy and environmental impact) if people have to run around and empty receptacles multiple times a day to keep up with the water bottles. Remember, everything we do has multiple consequences.
  - sschueller 8y ago
    A landfill is open and birds etc will take items out of it.
babuskov 8y ago
I have been thinking a lot about the plastic problem. Isn't plastic a great way to store carbon in solid form for a long time and prevent it coming back into the atmosphere? I mean, doesn't plastic work the same way the wooden furniture works? Storing carbon away and preventing global warming? If this is the case, perhaps we should look into ways to store plastic in more environment friendly ways instead to trying to prevent its production and use. All the alternatives that quickly degrade seem to allow the carbon to quickly get back into air and increase the global warming effect.
- Drakim 8y ago
  As far as I know, the carbon in plastic mostly comes from crude oil, which is already "stored away" deep in the earth. If you found a 100% effective and safe way to store all plastic after it's use you'd simply be carbon neutral (minus production costs), you wouldn't be capturing carbon from the atmosphere.
- adrianN 8y ago
  A better way to store carbon is to make charcoal. Plastic is made from oil, leaving that in the ground is easier than pumping it up, turning it into plastic and then dumping it into the ocean.
thomasfedb 8y ago
Starting to see single-use plastics being banned across Australia also which is great to see. Turns out paper bags are actually really handy things for putting recycling in.
treebro 8y ago
Plastic has become an eyesore in most of India, this couldn't come sooner.
someonenice 8y ago
Another district in state Kerala is the first district to ban plastic bags in India. I had been the reduction in plastic waste can be felt across the town. https://www.thebetterindia.com/97890/first-plastic-free-district-kannur/ https://www.thebetterindia.com/97890/first-plastic-free-dist...
chestervonwinch 8y ago
Meanwhile in Texas, the supreme court has just ruled that city-wide bag bans are illegal: http://www.txcourts.gov/media/1441865/160748.pdf http://www.txcourts.gov/media/1441865/160748.pdf
- cbg0 8y ago
  From what I've understood from the last two pages, it seems that under the law, cities lack enough legal authority to perform these types of bans. > The Act’s exemption does not save the Ordinance because the City has not identified a law authorizing the manner in which the City seeks to regulate. The general grants of regulatory authority the City relies on do not authorize the manner the City has chosen and, more to the point, do not supersede the express directive in the Act.
- francisofascii 8y ago
  In PA, there was an effort to pass a law to prohibit local or city-wide bans. The bill was vetoed. http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/billinfo/billinfo.cfm?syear=2017&sInd=0&body=H&type=B&bn=1071 http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/billinfo/billinfo.cfm?sy...
Boombuster 8y ago
Seems like a big challenge. When I travelled to Mumbai i remember so many plastic bottles around the shoreline
- RandomCSGeek 8y ago
  Mumbai is one of those places where the sea dumps all it's waste. Of course, a lot of it must have been generated by Mumbai itself, but some must also be coming from elsewhere.
woogiewonka 8y ago
Now if only we could do the same in Japan. I am always amazed to see individually-wrapped cookies wrapped in plastic, inside a box, wrapped by more plastic, inside paper inside a single-use shopping bag. I mean... C'MON!!!!
vishaltelangre 8y ago
Instead, government could've imposed ban on the consumer products which are wrapped using plastic material. Almost 50% plastic come directly from such consumer products sold by all FMCG companies. Such plastic material which is used as a wrapper (e.g. mineral bottles, wrappers of chocolates, biscuits, wafers, tobacco, etc.) is often useless and people tend to throw it right away. I agree that "we", the people need to take a pledge to stop using plastic as much as we can. But if there's no restriction put on giant FMCG companies such as Hindustan Unilever, ITC, Patanjali, Netsle, Procter and Gamble, etc. from supplying their products wrapped in plastic, I consider all of these government initiatives merely as a gimmick. EDIT 1: Another comment I left on this thread - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17400028 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17400028. EDIT 2: In India, plastic is a major contributor of blocking sewers and rivers, especially in rainy seasons. Another important problem plastic waste produces is that since government bodies (such as, municipal corporations, gram panchayats, etc.) are unable to dump and/or recycle plastic waste properly, it is accidentally consumed by animals and is the major reason for their deaths. Another issue is that, often "dumping waste" is considered as "burning" it. Burning plastic waste disturbs healthy air and is a major factor among others responsible for the increased air pollution in Indian cities recently.
- whistlerbrk 8y ago
  Why not both? It could make what you want easier to do down the road once the public sees they too can live without
- omk 8y ago
  AFAIK product packing is also included in the ban. The articles here state that plastic used for storage and packing of goods is also banned. Including packing of tooth brushes. https://www.firstpost.com/india/maharashtra-ban-war-on-plastic-bags-and-throwaways-are-an-indulgence-but-a-guiltless-dependence-on-straws-will-sink-the-planet-4576851.html https://www.firstpost.com/india/maharashtra-ban-war-on-plast... http://www.freepressjournal.in/mumbai/maharashtra-plastic-ban-all-you-need-to-know-about-the-ban/1253541 http://www.freepressjournal.in/mumbai/maharashtra-plastic-ba...
  - 8y ago
godelmachine 8y ago
This is nothing. I was entering my workplace yesterday and as usual, the guard at the first checkpoint rummaged through my backpack. I was shocked when he said the plastic bag I was using to protect my notebooks from rain could not be taken inside. Upon asking for an explanation, he said plastic bags are outlawed and we cannot risk them in company premises. I had to keep that bag in my vehicle trunk and then was allowed to enter premises.
- icebraining 8y ago
  Wait, why do you have guards rummaging through your bags? Do you work in a high-security facility?
  - piyush_soni 8y ago
    Some IT companies in India check your bags "for security purposes" while coming in/going out, or both. Yes, very disrespectful and insulting, but no one revolts so it's been going on (while their HRs will give powerpoint presentations on how trust is "one of the pillars" of their company). Most of them have a (probably made-up) story of how it was not the case before but someone broke their trust by stealing code in a hard disk etc., but no one has actually seen that happening in-person. Our software product company (headquartered in US) had the same policy in its Indian offices, and I (being a relatively new employee) last year pointed out in our surveys how hypocritical it is of the company to expect trust from the employees but not do the same in return. Fortunately they stopped doing it after that.
    - shripadk 8y ago
      This has nothing to do with trust. One terror attack and the employees and their families would be getting back at the management for lax security and having made the big mistake of trusting their lives with the company. Workplace violence is a thing and it's better for everyone to go through security checks than risk liability. You never know how, when or why someone snaps (however mentally stable s/he was during recruitment). And if you think it's impossible for something like that to happen, just take a look at what happened at YouTube HQ few months ago.
kumarvvr 8y ago
The offset in reduced plastic use by consumers will be more than compensated with the rapidly growing e-commerce market. I am terrified of the amount of plastic my Amazon purchases bring with their packing. It is a step in the right direction, but the govt. should invest and provide alternatives, perhaps use existing research institutions to come up with new, eco-friendly packing materials, and popularize them.
- icebraining 8y ago
  I don't buy from Amazon, but weren't they pushing for minimal and plastic-free packaging? Has the program been dropped?
  - kumarvvr 8y ago
    Is it so? I haven't heard of it. I recently ordered a set of knives and they came wrapped in a plastic cover (black) and wrapped with a cardboard box. But the knives themselves are packed in plastic and cardboard boxes. If I'd gone to a store, I could have picked them up by hand and avoided the plastic covering required for transport. E-commerce generates additional non-biodegradable waste and that is a problem that has to be solved considering the rapid rise of online shopping.
    - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
      At the store just the other day - shopkeeper ringing up the guy in front of me asked "Do you want a bag for that?" It was a product, in a box, wrapped in plastic. And the guy had his own canvas bag out already. If he'd accepted, he'd have had the product in a box in a bag in a bag. My god. When does it all end? What was the product? Plastic bags.
      - paulie_a 8y ago
        It's getting annoying when I go to a store. Put my backpack on the counter and get asked about a bag for the two small items I am buying.
wallace_f 8y ago
Why can't we agree to just do what Musk says about carbon: tax goods which create negative externalities for society? You could even do it this way: write the law such that an institution, whose job is to eliminate these externalities, is created, and then funded only with taxes on said products. There's two competing special interest groups to keep each in check so in theory it's even a institution which shouldn't have too much bureaucratic inertia. There are economists who endorse the idea, it's called a Pigouvian tax--the most notable economist is Mankiw.
- thechao 8y ago
  Carbon neutral atmospheric recapture of personal vehicle transportation carbon is probably about 600-700$ per ton of carbon. (Based off of practical experiments in the UK.) My read of the literature doesn’t show any hope of this number decreasing. A gallon of gasoline produces 20 lbs of carbon. This puts a carbon neutral tax on consumer gasoline at ~6-7$ per gallon. If you allow 20% “inefficiencies” (tax collection; frisson; profit margins), you’re at 7.2-8.4$/gallon. My fuel costs would go from 2.75$/gallon to ~10.50$/gallon. My yearly commute costs would go from ~1100$/yr to ~4000$/yr. I suppose it makes even a medium range electric vehicle look cheap—especially given the far cheaper costs of capturing carbon “at the stack” at the power plant would mean that central power wouldn’t be taxed as heavily.
  - jdietrich 8y ago
    The price of gasoline in the UK is currently over $6 per US gallon; A few years ago, it exceeded $9 per gallon. Most of that price is tax. The American way of life might be significantly affected by a recapture tax, but it wouldn't make a huge amount of difference in most of Europe.
  - Brakenshire 8y ago
    Recapture is a rather extravagant way of pricing carbon. We don’t need to eliminate carbon emissions entirely overnight, we need a certain percentage reduction each year for a few decades, and the carbon cost necessary to achieve that will be a lot lower.
  - 8y ago
0xcafecafe 8y ago
The news about a plastic bag being found at the bottom of the mariana trench was the trigger for me. We got a bunch of multiuse bags from publix and stopped using plastic bags cold turkey.
blohs 8y ago
Which in India means politicians see potential plastic bag black market.
brianbreslin 8y ago
I'm curious how this will affect the economy of the Dharavi slums where a huge portion of their economy is based around recycling goods found throughout the city. [1] It is great for the city to cut down on pollution, and I'm sure Dharavi will adapt, just curious is all. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharavi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharavi
piyush_soni 8y ago
Again, nice objective but like demonetization, it's a decision without any planning/preparation, and the terms and conditions are changing almost everyday. This is from today (small shop owners might be given relief from this rule): https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/plastic-ban-kirana-shops-may-get-relief/articleshow/64739988.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/plastic-ban-... They should have first researched and offered cheap environment friendly alternatives before doing the same. According to food delivery networks/start-ups, online food ordering was heavily impacted and a lot of restaurants have stopped home delivery because there are no feasible alternatives to delivering wet food (chutneys/sambhar etc.) The plastic cups, spoons and forks in mall food courts have been replaced too, but with wooden ones which just don't do their jobs properly.
- hw 8y ago
  The decision to ban plastics has been communicated for a few months. It's only in the last few days that the law went into effect, but businesses have had time to plan. One could argue if the 3 months notice was enough, but people shouldn't be caught by surprise. Wet food is a challenge in delivery. There are wax lined paper cups that are more environmental friendly, although not entirely eco safe.
  - piyush_soni 8y ago
    Most of the 'wax lined' paper cups you're talking about are plastic coated paper cups in reality, and the actual wax lined ones are very bad for one's health. So you are saying businesses had a whole 3 months time to find a reasonably priced plastic alternative that has the same properties as plastic (insoluble in liquid, durability, flexibility, and lightweight nature) but are eco-friendly and bio-degradable, which is a problem researchers of the world have no solution to? :) . In my opinion it was also government's job to suggest those cheap alternatives, or even give subsidy on them at least for the time being. There is a reason rest of the world hasn't done it so far, because when they take some decision, it's backed by proper research by experts including suggesting the alternatives.
DocTomoe 8y ago
> Chaudhary, a taxi driver, said he had started carrying a cloth bag and that his local mutton vendor had begun wrapping the meat in newspaper rather than plastic sheets. I am sure this is healthy.
- eesmith 8y ago
  FWIW, newspaper was the traditional wrapping for fish and chips in the UK. Many still use wraps printed to look like a newspaper. The practice was common enough that it occurs in Heinlein's "Have Spacesuit, Will Travel" (p14 in my copy), which was written in 1958. The line is "I had the Centerville Clarion but it's only fit for wrapping salami."
  - DocTomoe 8y ago
    Yes, it was the traditional way of doing things. But things have changed. Recycled paper contains diisobutyl phthalate and di-n-butyl phthalate. Ink residues in recycled paper may contain benzophenones and mineral oils. If they still use lead-lettered printing, you may got actual lead on your newspaper.
smdz 8y ago
The real reason to ban plastic so strictly in Mumbai is because plastic garbage chokes Mumbai's drainage systems and storm water system. And given the city's population and usage of plastic, the chokes are quite severe during the monsoon (rainy season) when it rains heavily. It is so severe that chokes can lead to extreme flooding and loss of life when it rains heavily and there is an onset of high-tide. The water sometimes has a few hours to leave the land and hence it is critical for the stormwater lines to work efficiently. Come September this ban will be forgotten again as the monsoon season recedes. While the ban has environment benefits, "they" care little about the "environment"
- pravinva 8y ago
  The choking nullahs aren't merely full of plastic. It's debris from the massive construction, both private and govt. Has anyone seen road design in Mumbai? The "expressway" signal junctions are made of paver blocks. Gutters are full of mud. The floods won't stop even if all plastic vanished
- friedButter 8y ago
  > And given the city's population and usage of plastic, the chokes are quite severe during the monsoon (rainy season) when it rains heavily Didnt the city even flood 2-3 days after the ban, when the govt was in full enforcement mode?
emur 8y ago
Banning at the time of monsoon is really clever move. When you can wrap yourself in plastic raincoats but you cannot carry a plastic bag in which you can carry that same raincoats.
- devdas 8y ago
  Monsoons show plastic blocking sewer systems.
m23khan 8y ago
excellent decision! This will hopefully have a affect on Pakistan as well as Pakistanis view Mumbai as the commercial role model for their geographic region. Hopefully my city Karachi can also follow this example.
wewake 8y ago
One must acknowledge that there's no such thing as "ban" in India given the numerous past records of people not obliging to regulations set by the govt.
hal9000xp 8y ago
Rwanda seems to be first country which imposed complete ban on plastic bags. It looks they've been successful on that: http://www.dw.com/en/ten-years-on-rwandas-plastic-ban/av-42897883 http://www.dw.com/en/ten-years-on-rwandas-plastic-ban/av-428...
failedartifact 8y ago
Ive been thinking theres a better classification one could make for wrapping food products using entropy. Food with short shelf life and not a survival food should be packaged in high entropy packaging. Although, sweet items would need to be taken care of since these would have a long shelf life but shouldnt be packaged in plastics. But in general, so long as there is adequate recyclable replacements, then this is great
thecrazyone 8y ago
I'm from India. This is one of the most asinine steps the Govt has taken. If plastic is banned, the need will be replaced by another substance (perhaps with similar properties; also demand for a need doesn't evaporate) which will overflow in our landfills. A wiser step would've been to figure out a way to recycle plastic, which has already been figured out by other countries ([1],[2],[3]). Instead, we're setting ourselves up to blame another substance a few years down the line. We're inconveniencing people, ruining existing businesses and capabilities for a non-solution or at the very least pushing the problem to another substance another day. Completely asinine indeed. Deeds of the government as usual. [1] https://inews.co.uk/news/environment/scandinavian-plastic-recycling-system-uk-adopt/ https://inews.co.uk/news/environment/scandinavian-plastic-re... [2] https://sweden.se/nature/the-swedish-recycling-revolution/ https://sweden.se/nature/the-swedish-recycling-revolution/ [3] https://guce.oath.com/collectConsent?brandType=eu&.done=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.co.uk%2Fentry%2Fnorway-has-perfected-plastic-recycling-heres-what-the-uk-can-learn-from-them_uk_5a7acbc5e4b06505b4e9983e%3Fguccounter%3D1&sessionId=4_cc-session_3a4e22dd-b5f6-4a30-aa2a-2bd2751a1678&lang=en-gb&inline=false https://guce.oath.com/collectConsent?brandType=eu&.done=http... Edit 1: Comment about demand Edit 2: formatting Edit 3: added "...some years down the line..."
RandomCSGeek 8y ago
A few clarifications, 1. It's not Mumbai banning plastics, the state of Maharashtra has done so. I live in another district of the same state. 2. Maharashtra is the 18th state to do so. So this is not as much of an unique law. 3. The State has also made it compulsory to utilize plastics waste in road construction.
random_thoughts 8y ago
Amazon,H&M, other multinationals pressing to soften Indian state's plastic ban - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-plastic-ban/amazon-hm-and-other-multinationals-pressing-to-soften-indian-states-plastic-ban-idUSKBN1JP0BU?il=0 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-plastic-ban/amazon-...

812 points by hw 8y ago

When will US cities do the same? Most restaurants offer plastic togo containers, which ends up in the landfill. Some restaurants even use plastic bowls and plates for dine-in customers, arguably so they don’t have to invest in equipment and labor to wash dishes. With The China recycling ban, this becomes more of a pressing issue. I’m surprised cities aren’t outright banning or imposing a tax on the use of plastics at restaurants.

makecheck 8y ago
It needs to become fashionable to basically carry lots of reusable stuff with you. We “sort of” have this for coffee containers and shopping bags but it would be good if people could also always carry a metal fork, plate, cup, and even a reusable napkin at all times. It’s one of those things that would remain weird if only a few people did it but wouldn’t be weird if most people did. It would also require eating establishments to be set up for reuse, e.g. washing stations for people to clean off their stuff.
- narag 8y ago
  Not sure I understood. Do you suggest that everybody carries their own cutlery to restaurants? Why? What's the relation with disposable stuff? Can't (don't most) restaurants have their own reusable stuff? I like plastic banning, as soon as it's in place all around, we'll see another non-contaminant material (only a little more expensive) replacing plastic.
  - tonyarkles 8y ago
    Cutlery I would imagine being for takeout food, or fast food where there’s often plastic cutlery (around here at least). Even when dining in, though, my wife and I have been trying to remember to bring our own Tupperware containers for bring home any leftovers, instead of using the typical provided styrofoam packaging.
    - hw 8y ago
      I don't quite understand why plastic cutlery for takeout food is necessary. Maybe if you're bringing it back to your office for lunch where you don't have access to cutlery (although you could always bring your own). I see families taking out food for home where they have cutlery and yet they take the plastic cutlery from the restaurants. It's ridiculous and it just highlights how humans value the convenience of just eating with plastic cutlery and throwing it away after eating, over the environment
  - hw 8y ago
    I've seen restaurants where they serve most of their food in plastic containers even for dine in customers. Most poke places for example always use a plastic bowl that patrons just throw away after they're done, along with plastic cutlery. Some restaurants serve water in cups with a plastic straw, which is also totally unnecessary.
    - narag 8y ago
      Oh, I see... that's very unfortunate. The only kind of "restaurant" that does this shit over here is McDonalds (and similar US franchises) and it makes me shake my head. Do you know what's infuriating? They're now going all "green" in some spots. But instead of avoiding creating all the trash to begin with, they put it on you, providing four of five different cans for every type of trash, and patronizing signs on the walls so you work for them classifying and cleaning their shit.
      - hw 8y ago
        The issues with the different cans, is that they need to be re-sorted manually anyway (usually by the city), since not everyone puts the right stuff in the right bins. All it does is it just gives the impression that the business is 'green'
- eesmith 8y ago
  Why would that help? Let's take going to a salad bar or buffet. Many health rules say that only clean plates may be used. For example, from http://EzineArticles.com/1402314 http://EzineArticles.com/1402314 : > There must be clean plates and other tableware at or adjacent to the buffet or salad bar and customers should be reminded, or notified if need be, that only clean tableware is to be used when returning to the buffet. Most restaurants are "set up for reuse", i.e, they wash the utensils, plates, and cups already. They are set up to do this wholesale, and there are health codes concerning the quality of the cleaning. Eg, quoting from https://www.oregon.gov/oha/ph/HealthyEnvironments/FoodSafety/Documents/foodsanitationrulesweb.pdf https://www.oregon.gov/oha/ph/HealthyEnvironments/FoodSafety... : > If hot water is used for sanitization in manual warewashing operations, the sanitizing compartment of the sink shall be: (A) Designed with an integral heating device that is capable of maintaining water at a temperature not less than 77oC (171 oF); Pf and (B) Provided with a rack or basket to allow complete immersion of equipment and utensils into the hot water. This is enough to scald someone in a fraction of a second (see http://www.accuratebuilding.com/services/legal/charts/hot_water_burn_scalding_graph.html http://www.accuratebuilding.com/services/legal/charts/hot_wa... ). The hot water temperature in most homes is under 120 degrees F. If you have "washing stations for people to clean off their stuff", then it will either use chemical treatments, or it will be at too low a temperature to meet health standards, or it will require specialized equipment and time - who is going to wait, say, 5 minutes for their dirty dishes to go through a commercial dishwasher, get cleaned, and cool down again? I just don't see the benefits or even practicality of what you propose.
  - bluesroo 8y ago
    With enough pressure I could see a reusable-dishes-as-a-service type company. A restaurant could pay this service $x per month and the service would come daily to drop off clean containers and pick up used containers for cleaning and sterilization. Restaurants could have a deposit upon getting a meal, say $3. When you bring your containers back you get your $3 back (or $3 towards your next meal there?). If multiple restaurants in your area used the same service, or if the dishes were standardized enough, then you could drop off your used dishes at multiple different places whenever you get take-out again. Obviously this is "in an ideal world" thinking, but it seems like with enough economic pressure on the take-out industry it could start being feasible.
- QasimK 8y ago
  That’s not very convenient. I like another suggestion in this thread: standardised components. Have shops hand out reusable metal cutlery rather than disposable plastic cutlery with a deposit scheme. You pay a few quid for the cutlery, but can return it anywhere and get your money back. The key is to make it ubiquitous, which makes it effortless for people. You could still offer plastic disposable cutlery for those that needed it for some reason - but have a (small) charge. That should be sufficient to massively cut down the plastic waste. The UK introduced a 5p plastic bag charge which was really effective despite it being so cheap. I realised I’m writing this as I’m eating a take-out lunch with a plastic fork. I have to trash it, but could very easily have used a returnable fork. It came in a paper bag which I can take back to the office and recycle. Edit: Thinking about it, if having your own cutlery is a habit then it might not be so inconvenient.
weavie 8y ago
An American family I visited a while ago would use paper plates and plastic forks for every meal at home to save on dishes. I was shocked, but they seemed to think it was standard behaviour in the US. Is it?
- eesmith 8y ago
  For some families, yes, it is.
  - weavie 8y ago
    Any idea on the demographics?
    - eesmith 8y ago
      No. Simply that I've visited people (I'm from the US) who do that.
    - tfolbrecht 8y ago
      It's common in the rural southern United States. Big box stores sell hundreds of plates and napkins for a few dollars. The justifications I've heard is that it's a lot of labor saved if the family is sufficiently large and the woman is expected to do all the cooking and cleaning.
- alkonaut 8y ago
  > to save on dishes To save what, money or labor? I fail to see how this could be economical in the sense "cheaper"?
  - weavie 8y ago
    I believe labour, all that time spent scrubbing plates...
    - Cthulhu_ 8y ago
wetpaws 8y ago
California does this to a certain degree.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
snarf21 8y ago
I think it is even more important to ban micro plastics which have invaded our food supply and are ingested with even bigger negative consequences.

simion314 8y ago

A tax seems the fair solution, if it costs X to dispose of a plastic bottle then tax X each bottle, use the money to dispose of the bottle, adjust X if costs change.

alkonaut 8y ago
I don't think the cost is known. If the consequence is microplastics in the oceans it's probably so high that any number assigned as the cost is equivalent to a ban. You wouldn't buy a $10 plastic bag at the grocery store.
- simion314 8y ago
  It is like a ban but I think it has the advantage that does not make things illegal so you don't get the "state tells me what to do" people complaining because you explain it is a fair "capitalist/free market" measure. Y0u are right that is hard to measure the exact costs, but we don't measure how much it costs if the bottle lands in water but how much it costs to have the bottle collected and placed in the right place(some special disposable facilities) this will mean have the stores implement ways to collect the bottles to be properly disposed, you can add Y on top of the cost and return it to the customer when the bottle is restored to have most of the objects returned , though I know some people will not like to keep the empty bottles and bring them back to the store
  - tehwebguy 8y ago
    It’s not about the cost
dingaling 8y ago
But such a tax gives no incentive for companies to change their packaging. The tax is paid by the customer who usually has few or no options. For example in the UK plastic one-litre milk pitcher bottles are ubiquitous. Even the few remaining door-to-door milkmen deliver them, instead of the old one-pint reusable glass bottles. I simply can't buy fresh milk in anything else and i have a recycling bin full of them. Reverting to glass would add weight, breakages and collection costs to the companies. So they wouldn't have any incentive to change under a tax scheme when they don't pay it. Only a ban will change their behaviour.

1ba9115454 8y ago

Great. Let's roll this out everywhere. Actually it would be nice to do something about cigeratte butts too.

sleepychu 8y ago
Just ban cigarettes? They're ridiculous, I don't understand why we allow them.
- sumedh 8y ago
  > I don't understand why we allow them. because some people like them. Should we ban Alcohol, fast food and sugar as well?
  - Cthulhu_ 8y ago
    People like cocaine too; enjoyment of something isn't grounds to keep it legal. Smoking (and alcohol) just can't be made illegal now; the US tried that for a couple of years, and all it managed to do was give rise to organized crime and illegal (and dangerous) manufacture of alcohol. In my country, smoking and alcohol are more passively discouraged; high taxes, a ban on advertising, strict age checks, and (for smoking, lately) shocking imagery, removal of brands, removal of any kind of interesting packaging, and (most recently) a ban on displaying it. I mean I'd still be in favor of outright banning it already, because all of these measures are just idk, weird, but at the same time criminalising it would cause more problems than the current measures.
    - sumedh 8y ago
      Cocaine should made legal too, with all the measures which you listed. If people like something, they will try anything to get it, if its illegal is just goes underground.
      - dingo_bat 8y ago
        I don't understand this logic. We tax alcohol and cigarettes. We ban cocaine. And look at the result: hundreds of millions addicted to smoking, but almost zero usage of cocaine. Looks like a ban is a good way to curtail usage. Which is what we want, right?

andrewstuart 8y ago

Thank goodness somewhere is taking the obvious action of banning the packaging, which is really just pre-garbage. However, banning packaging only works if it is backed by a system for precisely standardised, refundable and washable containers that food and other products can be shipped in. You can't just say "no packaging". We need a MUCH better form of packaging than disposable/recyclable because recycling only works a little bit to solve the problem of packaging turning into garbage. That better form is re-usable standardised containers.

WalterBright 8y ago
Better to use paper packaging. For food it can be waxed like in the olden days.
- 0xFFC 8y ago
  Doesn’t paper bags literally mean demand for more papers and consequently more jungle would be destroyed?
  - thomaslangston 8y ago
    It is my understanding that paper isn't made from jungle tree species. An increased demand for paper would lead to an increase in tree farms in temperate climates, not tropical.
  - ainiriand 8y ago
    Not really, new paper is mostly produced from recycled paper. What destroys the jungle is deforestation to create farmlands.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
      I didn't down vote you. Just want to point out that deforestation to create farmlands also includes tree plantations. Tree farms, as it were. I live in Tasmania, which is notorious for chopping down old-growth forest, wood chip it mostly for paper products, and replace it with plantation timber.

piyushpr134 8y ago

Great to see that my city, Mumbai, is setting an example here. Plastic ban is a no brainer. People must move to either biodegradable carry bags and packaging or move to jute/steel/metal bags/utensils etc. Plastic would choke our world one day otherwise. At the same time, I know it would be huge pain for a lot of people. In Mumbai, it rains really heavy. Like really really heavy. It rains more than 2x it rains in London and that too in just 4 months. So for a lot of people, plastic is literally the roof they need. Zoom in on Mumbai and you would see many shanties with blue "roof"s. That is all plastic. Hope municipality will allow such plastic sheets as they are not single use.

Tepix 8y ago
Getting rid of single-use plastic would be a great first step.
nowarninglabel 8y ago
Agreed, this is great, though I'm in Nairobi and they have banned plastic last year, setting a great example.
sumedh 8y ago
Doesnt Mumbai do that every couple of years and the the whole thing fizzles out and then some new bureaucrat tries it again. This is from 2009 http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/dec/30/bmc-plans-to-ban-plastic-bags-in-mumbai.htm http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/dec/30/bmc-plans-to-b...
- denzil_correa 8y ago
  In Mumbai (and India), law enforcement is a huge challenge regardless of the laws.
  - kamaal 8y ago
    What makes this issue worse is the existence of bullshit impractical laws, such as this.
- 8y ago

kamaal 8y ago

Officially, :) In reality we all know how this will go. If anything plastic use may now increase. Because it will now go unregulated. Bans in India need to be taken with a pinch of salt. They banned tinted glasses on cars. In Bangalore, some people prefer to pay fine/bribe than remove the sticker.

Dawny33 8y ago
>If anything plastic use may now increase. Because it will now go unregulated. How?
- kamaal 8y ago
  Ban by definition implies deregulation and tax breaks(You can't tax things that shouldn't even exist) This helps the black markets immensely.
rubzah 8y ago
Agree. Anyone who has been to India knows how small a role regulations play in everyday life. Nobody cares. At most this will give a couple of corrupt police officers another opportunity to hand out 'fines'.
- aryamaan 8y ago
  I think the time will tell and it's better than having no regulations at all. Btw, the consumption of alcohol in Bihar and other states where it's prohibated has reduced significantly- I am not advocating the ban of alcohol, personally I feel it's as a wrong move- after the regulations.
  - thewhitetulip 8y ago
    Pray tell me how you found out that Bihar's alcohol ban has worked out? I was under the impression that there is a vibrant black market in Bihar too
    - 8y ago

sbmthakur 8y ago

This is a Maharashtra wide ban. It's being strictly implemented in my neighborhood(a Mumbai suburb).

thewhitetulip 8y ago
Truth be told, this came quote late. A friend of mine told me that the town of alibag banned plastics few years back. Of course they are a tourism based economy

WalterBright 8y ago

I'm a heavy amazon user, and am disappointed that they haven't eliminated plastic from the packaging. They use those inflatable plastic balloons (which are still far better than styrofoam peanuts), and they inexplicably use plastic bubblewrap mailers. On the news today they reported the tons of recyclable paper that nobody knows what to do with. It could be shredded and used for packaging instead of plastic.

jakobegger 8y ago
It depends. In Austria, almost all Amazon stuff comes in a cardboard envelope, without any plastic.
dssfgsgsgsdgds 8y ago
Where does the paper come from? Shouldn't that source also be eliminated? What is worse, cutting down trees or using plastic?

majewsky 8y ago

Honest question: What will plastic bottles be replaced with that's more environmentally friendly? I can easily see plastic bags being replaced by jute bags, but the only alternative material for bottles that I know of is glass, which does not seem like a good alternative given its weight and fragility (and possibly energy use during production).

matt4077 8y ago
I suspect that only single-use bottles are banned. The sturdier, reusable plastic bottles, with a deposit encouraging returns, should be the best option in terms of energy and material over its lifetime.
- Arnt 8y ago
  The headline of the article says as much ;)
bladecatcher 8y ago
http://www.algopack.com/indexgb.php http://www.algopack.com/indexgb.php makes bottles out of seaweed (brown algae) and there're other companies trying to make reuseable bioplastic bottles out of sugarcane
- bpicolo 8y ago
  > reuseable bioplastic bottles That's not any better if they still don't degrade, no?
  - hammock 8y ago
    Bioplastic (PLA) is biodegradable in a commercial facility, unlike petroleum-based bottle plastic (PET)
    - saagarjha 8y ago
      The key point being that someone has to get the bottle back to the facility instead of throwing it in the trash, or worse, littering.

sschueller 8y ago

I think this is a good step but what a lot of countries lack is also proper disposal of trash. Landfills are a poor solution, better are clean trash burning facilities[1] that also produce energy as well as proper pre sorting. China is building the largest in the world which is to open in 2020. [2] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/13/science/earth/13trash.html https://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/13/science/earth/13trash.htm... [2] https://www.sciencealert.com/china-is-building-the-largest-waste-to-energy-plant-in-the-world https://www.sciencealert.com/china-is-building-the-largest-w...

protonfish 8y ago
The "ban single-use plastic" hype train seems illogical to me. Having your city littered with garbage is a government services problem - they should provide convenient waste disposal receptacles, empty them frequently to be disposed of properly, and give citations to litterers. We should not be cheering this short-sighted law. I also don't understand why plastic in a landfill is all that bad. The fact that it is biodegradable is a positive here - it won't break down into toxic substances. Evaluating environmental impact is a complex process. Everything we do has multiple consequences. I believe global warning is the most serious environmental disaster we are facing today. Plastics use significantly less energy in production and transportation (because of lower weight and less material needed.) With an eye toward AGW, how can paper packaging and burning refuse be seen as a responsible choice? It is critical that we consider the effects of our consumption habits in a serious and reasonable fashion. I just don't see the anti-plastic panic to be rational or constructive.
- JoeAltmaier 8y ago
  Its less cheap (in energy and environmental impact) if people have to run around and empty receptacles multiple times a day to keep up with the water bottles. Remember, everything we do has multiple consequences.
- sschueller 8y ago
  A landfill is open and birds etc will take items out of it.

babuskov 8y ago

I have been thinking a lot about the plastic problem. Isn't plastic a great way to store carbon in solid form for a long time and prevent it coming back into the atmosphere? I mean, doesn't plastic work the same way the wooden furniture works? Storing carbon away and preventing global warming? If this is the case, perhaps we should look into ways to store plastic in more environment friendly ways instead to trying to prevent its production and use. All the alternatives that quickly degrade seem to allow the carbon to quickly get back into air and increase the global warming effect.

Drakim 8y ago
As far as I know, the carbon in plastic mostly comes from crude oil, which is already "stored away" deep in the earth. If you found a 100% effective and safe way to store all plastic after it's use you'd simply be carbon neutral (minus production costs), you wouldn't be capturing carbon from the atmosphere.
adrianN 8y ago
A better way to store carbon is to make charcoal. Plastic is made from oil, leaving that in the ground is easier than pumping it up, turning it into plastic and then dumping it into the ocean.

thomasfedb 8y ago

Starting to see single-use plastics being banned across Australia also which is great to see. Turns out paper bags are actually really handy things for putting recycling in.

treebro 8y ago

Plastic has become an eyesore in most of India, this couldn't come sooner.

someonenice 8y ago

Another district in state Kerala is the first district to ban plastic bags in India. I had been the reduction in plastic waste can be felt across the town. https://www.thebetterindia.com/97890/first-plastic-free-district-kannur/ https://www.thebetterindia.com/97890/first-plastic-free-dist...

chestervonwinch 8y ago

Meanwhile in Texas, the supreme court has just ruled that city-wide bag bans are illegal: http://www.txcourts.gov/media/1441865/160748.pdf http://www.txcourts.gov/media/1441865/160748.pdf

cbg0 8y ago
From what I've understood from the last two pages, it seems that under the law, cities lack enough legal authority to perform these types of bans. > The Act’s exemption does not save the Ordinance because the City has not identified a law authorizing the manner in which the City seeks to regulate. The general grants of regulatory authority the City relies on do not authorize the manner the City has chosen and, more to the point, do not supersede the express directive in the Act.
francisofascii 8y ago
In PA, there was an effort to pass a law to prohibit local or city-wide bans. The bill was vetoed. http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/billinfo/billinfo.cfm?syear=2017&sInd=0&body=H&type=B&bn=1071 http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/billinfo/billinfo.cfm?sy...

Boombuster 8y ago

Seems like a big challenge. When I travelled to Mumbai i remember so many plastic bottles around the shoreline

RandomCSGeek 8y ago
Mumbai is one of those places where the sea dumps all it's waste. Of course, a lot of it must have been generated by Mumbai itself, but some must also be coming from elsewhere.

woogiewonka 8y ago

Now if only we could do the same in Japan. I am always amazed to see individually-wrapped cookies wrapped in plastic, inside a box, wrapped by more plastic, inside paper inside a single-use shopping bag. I mean... C'MON!!!!

vishaltelangre 8y ago

Instead, government could've imposed ban on the consumer products which are wrapped using plastic material. Almost 50% plastic come directly from such consumer products sold by all FMCG companies. Such plastic material which is used as a wrapper (e.g. mineral bottles, wrappers of chocolates, biscuits, wafers, tobacco, etc.) is often useless and people tend to throw it right away. I agree that "we", the people need to take a pledge to stop using plastic as much as we can. But if there's no restriction put on giant FMCG companies such as Hindustan Unilever, ITC, Patanjali, Netsle, Procter and Gamble, etc. from supplying their products wrapped in plastic, I consider all of these government initiatives merely as a gimmick. EDIT 1: Another comment I left on this thread - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17400028 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17400028. EDIT 2: In India, plastic is a major contributor of blocking sewers and rivers, especially in rainy seasons. Another important problem plastic waste produces is that since government bodies (such as, municipal corporations, gram panchayats, etc.) are unable to dump and/or recycle plastic waste properly, it is accidentally consumed by animals and is the major reason for their deaths. Another issue is that, often "dumping waste" is considered as "burning" it. Burning plastic waste disturbs healthy air and is a major factor among others responsible for the increased air pollution in Indian cities recently.

whistlerbrk 8y ago
Why not both? It could make what you want easier to do down the road once the public sees they too can live without
omk 8y ago
AFAIK product packing is also included in the ban. The articles here state that plastic used for storage and packing of goods is also banned. Including packing of tooth brushes. https://www.firstpost.com/india/maharashtra-ban-war-on-plastic-bags-and-throwaways-are-an-indulgence-but-a-guiltless-dependence-on-straws-will-sink-the-planet-4576851.html https://www.firstpost.com/india/maharashtra-ban-war-on-plast... http://www.freepressjournal.in/mumbai/maharashtra-plastic-ban-all-you-need-to-know-about-the-ban/1253541 http://www.freepressjournal.in/mumbai/maharashtra-plastic-ba...
- 8y ago

godelmachine 8y ago

This is nothing. I was entering my workplace yesterday and as usual, the guard at the first checkpoint rummaged through my backpack. I was shocked when he said the plastic bag I was using to protect my notebooks from rain could not be taken inside. Upon asking for an explanation, he said plastic bags are outlawed and we cannot risk them in company premises. I had to keep that bag in my vehicle trunk and then was allowed to enter premises.

icebraining 8y ago
Wait, why do you have guards rummaging through your bags? Do you work in a high-security facility?
- piyush_soni 8y ago
  Some IT companies in India check your bags "for security purposes" while coming in/going out, or both. Yes, very disrespectful and insulting, but no one revolts so it's been going on (while their HRs will give powerpoint presentations on how trust is "one of the pillars" of their company). Most of them have a (probably made-up) story of how it was not the case before but someone broke their trust by stealing code in a hard disk etc., but no one has actually seen that happening in-person. Our software product company (headquartered in US) had the same policy in its Indian offices, and I (being a relatively new employee) last year pointed out in our surveys how hypocritical it is of the company to expect trust from the employees but not do the same in return. Fortunately they stopped doing it after that.
  - shripadk 8y ago
    This has nothing to do with trust. One terror attack and the employees and their families would be getting back at the management for lax security and having made the big mistake of trusting their lives with the company. Workplace violence is a thing and it's better for everyone to go through security checks than risk liability. You never know how, when or why someone snaps (however mentally stable s/he was during recruitment). And if you think it's impossible for something like that to happen, just take a look at what happened at YouTube HQ few months ago.

kumarvvr 8y ago

The offset in reduced plastic use by consumers will be more than compensated with the rapidly growing e-commerce market. I am terrified of the amount of plastic my Amazon purchases bring with their packing. It is a step in the right direction, but the govt. should invest and provide alternatives, perhaps use existing research institutions to come up with new, eco-friendly packing materials, and popularize them.

icebraining 8y ago
I don't buy from Amazon, but weren't they pushing for minimal and plastic-free packaging? Has the program been dropped?
- kumarvvr 8y ago
  Is it so? I haven't heard of it. I recently ordered a set of knives and they came wrapped in a plastic cover (black) and wrapped with a cardboard box. But the knives themselves are packed in plastic and cardboard boxes. If I'd gone to a store, I could have picked them up by hand and avoided the plastic covering required for transport. E-commerce generates additional non-biodegradable waste and that is a problem that has to be solved considering the rapid rise of online shopping.
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    At the store just the other day - shopkeeper ringing up the guy in front of me asked "Do you want a bag for that?" It was a product, in a box, wrapped in plastic. And the guy had his own canvas bag out already. If he'd accepted, he'd have had the product in a box in a bag in a bag. My god. When does it all end? What was the product? Plastic bags.
    - paulie_a 8y ago
      It's getting annoying when I go to a store. Put my backpack on the counter and get asked about a bag for the two small items I am buying.

wallace_f 8y ago

Why can't we agree to just do what Musk says about carbon: tax goods which create negative externalities for society? You could even do it this way: write the law such that an institution, whose job is to eliminate these externalities, is created, and then funded only with taxes on said products. There's two competing special interest groups to keep each in check so in theory it's even a institution which shouldn't have too much bureaucratic inertia. There are economists who endorse the idea, it's called a Pigouvian tax--the most notable economist is Mankiw.

thechao 8y ago
Carbon neutral atmospheric recapture of personal vehicle transportation carbon is probably about 600-700$ per ton of carbon. (Based off of practical experiments in the UK.) My read of the literature doesn’t show any hope of this number decreasing. A gallon of gasoline produces 20 lbs of carbon. This puts a carbon neutral tax on consumer gasoline at ~6-7$ per gallon. If you allow 20% “inefficiencies” (tax collection; frisson; profit margins), you’re at 7.2-8.4$/gallon. My fuel costs would go from 2.75$/gallon to ~10.50$/gallon. My yearly commute costs would go from ~1100$/yr to ~4000$/yr. I suppose it makes even a medium range electric vehicle look cheap—especially given the far cheaper costs of capturing carbon “at the stack” at the power plant would mean that central power wouldn’t be taxed as heavily.
- jdietrich 8y ago
  The price of gasoline in the UK is currently over $6 per US gallon; A few years ago, it exceeded $9 per gallon. Most of that price is tax. The American way of life might be significantly affected by a recapture tax, but it wouldn't make a huge amount of difference in most of Europe.
- Brakenshire 8y ago
  Recapture is a rather extravagant way of pricing carbon. We don’t need to eliminate carbon emissions entirely overnight, we need a certain percentage reduction each year for a few decades, and the carbon cost necessary to achieve that will be a lot lower.
- 8y ago

0xcafecafe 8y ago

The news about a plastic bag being found at the bottom of the mariana trench was the trigger for me. We got a bunch of multiuse bags from publix and stopped using plastic bags cold turkey.

blohs 8y ago

Which in India means politicians see potential plastic bag black market.

brianbreslin 8y ago

I'm curious how this will affect the economy of the Dharavi slums where a huge portion of their economy is based around recycling goods found throughout the city. [1] It is great for the city to cut down on pollution, and I'm sure Dharavi will adapt, just curious is all. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharavi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharavi

piyush_soni 8y ago

Again, nice objective but like demonetization, it's a decision without any planning/preparation, and the terms and conditions are changing almost everyday. This is from today (small shop owners might be given relief from this rule): https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/plastic-ban-kirana-shops-may-get-relief/articleshow/64739988.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/plastic-ban-... They should have first researched and offered cheap environment friendly alternatives before doing the same. According to food delivery networks/start-ups, online food ordering was heavily impacted and a lot of restaurants have stopped home delivery because there are no feasible alternatives to delivering wet food (chutneys/sambhar etc.) The plastic cups, spoons and forks in mall food courts have been replaced too, but with wooden ones which just don't do their jobs properly.

hw 8y ago
The decision to ban plastics has been communicated for a few months. It's only in the last few days that the law went into effect, but businesses have had time to plan. One could argue if the 3 months notice was enough, but people shouldn't be caught by surprise. Wet food is a challenge in delivery. There are wax lined paper cups that are more environmental friendly, although not entirely eco safe.
- piyush_soni 8y ago
  Most of the 'wax lined' paper cups you're talking about are plastic coated paper cups in reality, and the actual wax lined ones are very bad for one's health. So you are saying businesses had a whole 3 months time to find a reasonably priced plastic alternative that has the same properties as plastic (insoluble in liquid, durability, flexibility, and lightweight nature) but are eco-friendly and bio-degradable, which is a problem researchers of the world have no solution to? :) . In my opinion it was also government's job to suggest those cheap alternatives, or even give subsidy on them at least for the time being. There is a reason rest of the world hasn't done it so far, because when they take some decision, it's backed by proper research by experts including suggesting the alternatives.

DocTomoe 8y ago

> Chaudhary, a taxi driver, said he had started carrying a cloth bag and that his local mutton vendor had begun wrapping the meat in newspaper rather than plastic sheets. I am sure this is healthy.

eesmith 8y ago
FWIW, newspaper was the traditional wrapping for fish and chips in the UK. Many still use wraps printed to look like a newspaper. The practice was common enough that it occurs in Heinlein's "Have Spacesuit, Will Travel" (p14 in my copy), which was written in 1958. The line is "I had the Centerville Clarion but it's only fit for wrapping salami."
- DocTomoe 8y ago
  Yes, it was the traditional way of doing things. But things have changed. Recycled paper contains diisobutyl phthalate and di-n-butyl phthalate. Ink residues in recycled paper may contain benzophenones and mineral oils. If they still use lead-lettered printing, you may got actual lead on your newspaper.

smdz 8y ago

The real reason to ban plastic so strictly in Mumbai is because plastic garbage chokes Mumbai's drainage systems and storm water system. And given the city's population and usage of plastic, the chokes are quite severe during the monsoon (rainy season) when it rains heavily. It is so severe that chokes can lead to extreme flooding and loss of life when it rains heavily and there is an onset of high-tide. The water sometimes has a few hours to leave the land and hence it is critical for the stormwater lines to work efficiently. Come September this ban will be forgotten again as the monsoon season recedes. While the ban has environment benefits, "they" care little about the "environment"

pravinva 8y ago
The choking nullahs aren't merely full of plastic. It's debris from the massive construction, both private and govt. Has anyone seen road design in Mumbai? The "expressway" signal junctions are made of paver blocks. Gutters are full of mud. The floods won't stop even if all plastic vanished
friedButter 8y ago
> And given the city's population and usage of plastic, the chokes are quite severe during the monsoon (rainy season) when it rains heavily Didnt the city even flood 2-3 days after the ban, when the govt was in full enforcement mode?

emur 8y ago

Banning at the time of monsoon is really clever move. When you can wrap yourself in plastic raincoats but you cannot carry a plastic bag in which you can carry that same raincoats.

devdas 8y ago
Monsoons show plastic blocking sewer systems.

m23khan 8y ago

excellent decision! This will hopefully have a affect on Pakistan as well as Pakistanis view Mumbai as the commercial role model for their geographic region. Hopefully my city Karachi can also follow this example.

wewake 8y ago

One must acknowledge that there's no such thing as "ban" in India given the numerous past records of people not obliging to regulations set by the govt.

hal9000xp 8y ago

Rwanda seems to be first country which imposed complete ban on plastic bags. It looks they've been successful on that: http://www.dw.com/en/ten-years-on-rwandas-plastic-ban/av-42897883 http://www.dw.com/en/ten-years-on-rwandas-plastic-ban/av-428...

failedartifact 8y ago

Ive been thinking theres a better classification one could make for wrapping food products using entropy. Food with short shelf life and not a survival food should be packaged in high entropy packaging. Although, sweet items would need to be taken care of since these would have a long shelf life but shouldnt be packaged in plastics. But in general, so long as there is adequate recyclable replacements, then this is great

thecrazyone 8y ago

I'm from India. This is one of the most asinine steps the Govt has taken. If plastic is banned, the need will be replaced by another substance (perhaps with similar properties; also demand for a need doesn't evaporate) which will overflow in our landfills. A wiser step would've been to figure out a way to recycle plastic, which has already been figured out by other countries ([1],[2],[3]). Instead, we're setting ourselves up to blame another substance a few years down the line. We're inconveniencing people, ruining existing businesses and capabilities for a non-solution or at the very least pushing the problem to another substance another day. Completely asinine indeed. Deeds of the government as usual. [1] https://inews.co.uk/news/environment/scandinavian-plastic-recycling-system-uk-adopt/ https://inews.co.uk/news/environment/scandinavian-plastic-re... [2] https://sweden.se/nature/the-swedish-recycling-revolution/ https://sweden.se/nature/the-swedish-recycling-revolution/ [3] https://guce.oath.com/collectConsent?brandType=eu&.done=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.co.uk%2Fentry%2Fnorway-has-perfected-plastic-recycling-heres-what-the-uk-can-learn-from-them_uk_5a7acbc5e4b06505b4e9983e%3Fguccounter%3D1&sessionId=4_cc-session_3a4e22dd-b5f6-4a30-aa2a-2bd2751a1678&lang=en-gb&inline=false https://guce.oath.com/collectConsent?brandType=eu&.done=http... Edit 1: Comment about demand Edit 2: formatting Edit 3: added "...some years down the line..."

RandomCSGeek 8y ago

A few clarifications, 1. It's not Mumbai banning plastics, the state of Maharashtra has done so. I live in another district of the same state. 2. Maharashtra is the 18th state to do so. So this is not as much of an unique law. 3. The State has also made it compulsory to utilize plastics waste in road construction.

random_thoughts 8y ago

Amazon,H&M, other multinationals pressing to soften Indian state's plastic ban - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-plastic-ban/amazon-hm-and-other-multinationals-pressing-to-soften-indian-states-plastic-ban-idUSKBN1JP0BU?il=0 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-plastic-ban/amazon-...