7 ms·

Civil Forfeiture is essentially "guilty until proven innocent." And I don't mean that hyperbolically, I mean literally if the state takes property or cash under

Civil Forfeiture is essentially "guilty until proven innocent." And I don't mean that hyperbolically, I mean literally if the state takes property or cash under Civil Forfeiture you have to prove your property innocent to get it returned (via expensive civil litigation). That means that they can seize property or cash under a certain value with near impunity because the cost of recovering it is greater than the cost of the goods themselves. This makes it a fantastic tool against the poor, since they'll have no real remedies. You only really started to hear about Civil Forfeiture once the police started going too far and taking things from the wealthy or powerful, but they've been at this for years, take vehicles from accused but un-prosecuted "drug dealers."

RIMR 8y ago
What's worse is they don't even need a shred of evidence to take your stuff. In some states, having more than $10,000 in cash on your person is automatically considered "evidence of criminal activity". That means that the police, just by seeing that you have more than $10k in cash, can simply seize it and then force you to spend your time and additional money proving that the money didn't come from crime. And, of course, every cent of the cash they take goes to their own department, so they are incentivized to look for cash during traffic stops just so they can literally commit highway robbery... It's also not unusual for an officer to record that they found $15k in cash, only for the person they seized it from to call foul, stating that they had more. Since there is literally nothing protecting the citizen in this situation, they are left without any legal remedy, and the cop gets to pocket your cash for his own illicit purposes. This is a system that encourages corruption with the justification of profit.
- slowburning 8y ago
  In some states it is illegal to defend against civil forfeiture practices using hidden compartments in your vehicle to store 100% legal property (e.g. cash, jewelry, confidential information)
  - VectorLock 8y ago
    Which states?
    - arwineap 8y ago
      OH and CA both have laws on the books against creating (hidden compartment) or operating a vehicle with a hidden compartment if it's intended for something illegal. Drugs and guns is the common justification, but I wonder what would happen if you had say 15k in cash in a compartment.
      - smrtinsert 8y ago
        Dont. Excessive free cash is very typically seized.
        djrogers 8y ago
        I don’t think we have enough data to say it’s ‘very typically seized’ - certainly it is at times, and in egregious and outrageous fashion, but I don’t think ‘very typically’ is accurate. I personally have on many occasions had well in excess of 10,000 on my person and have never had it seized.
        lostcolony 8y ago
        And you were pulled over, and it was discovered? I mean, even if you were, that constitutes X data points, which is hardly representative.
        topmonk 8y ago
        You're asking him to prove a negative. The onus should be on you.
        mannykannot 8y ago
- fredgrott 8y ago
  update, its now less than $5,000 and greater than $2,999...ever wonder why the debit/cc cards for poor can only have cash loaded on the card less than $2,999?
- scoggs 8y ago
  I hope, and if this applies to you maybe this will be a wake up call, nobody reading this walks around with lump sums of cash like this without a receipt from the ATM or bank teller. I hope not.
  - URSpider94 8y ago
    And how would that help? Playing policeman’s advocate, maybe you left half of what you just withdrew at home? How would you prove you were carrying the whole amount?
dragonwriter 8y ago
> Civil Forfeiture is essentially "guilty until proven innocent." And I don't mean that hyperbolically, I mean literally if the state takes property or cash under Civil Forfeiture you have to prove your property innocent to get it returned (via expensive civil litigation). False generally, and specifically false for federal law forfeitures, where the burden is explicitly on the government to prove that the property is legally subject to forfeiture provided anyone with an interest in the property sized has asserted that interest. If the property is subject to forfeiture (e.g., as an instrumentality of crime), the owner may still defeat forfeiture by establishing their own personal innocence, under the innocent owner rule: in this case the burden is on the owner, but this only comes into play when the property is proven subject to forfeiture. See, generally, 18 USC Sec. 983(c) and (d).
- lovich 8y ago
  And? Most civil forfeiture is from small town cops, not the feds. Yea your one type of case is less problematic, but the majority of real life cases are still guilty until proven innocent Edit: additionally, what happens when the government doesn't follow the law? You bring them to court? That's still guilty until proven innocent unless there's a strong IG which is not the case
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > And? Most civil forfeiture is from small town cops, not the feds The significant civil forfeiture crisis has been driven by federal law forfeitures (particularly related to the War on Drugs), executed by local agencies, because federal law authorizes local agencies to conduct forfeitures and allows local agencies to keep (a share of) proceeds of such forfeitures, while most state forfeiture laws dedicate the proceeds of forfeitures to state general funds. This provides a strong incentive for local agencies to use federal law forfeitures as a revenue stream for the agency, an incentive which does not exist for state law forfeitures in most states.
- learc83 8y ago
  When the feds seize an asset they general do it via administrative forfeiture, which generally only requires probably cause. Once they seize it, the owner has 60 days to file a claim. If no claim is filed, the government keeps the asset. If a claim is filed, the government can either pursue civil or criminal forfeiture. In the case of civil forfeiture there is a right to a trial by jury. However, this isn't automatic. The person has to either have the legal knowledge to know how to file a claim, or they need a lawyer. In many cases no claim is filed because the legal fees necessary to recover the asset will be greater than the value of the asset. Basically if the government sizes a few grand in cash, it will cost you too much to recover it to make it worth it. Also if you're not legally sophisticated, or too poor to pay a lawyer (and can't find free legal help), you're not going to get your money back.
acdha 8y ago
> You only really started to hear about Civil Forfeiture once the police started going too far and taking things from the wealthy or powerful From my perspective it was more like police brutality: the internet and cameras were what made awareness mainstream by making it easy to spread (especially in areas where the local media has a credulous relationship with the police) and harder to dismiss.
coldseattle 8y ago
Maybe so, but did you read the article? This is a person who the Government decided to do a forfeiture after a conviction. I'm glad the SCOTUS is looking at this because it seems to be adding additional penalties after a conviction. However, in the past additional penalties implemented after a conviction (like sex offender registries) have been upheld.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- pc86 8y ago
  It's not a good thing SCOTUS is looking at a convicted drug dealer for a CAF case. If this gets upheld the bar to get another CAF case in front of the Court will be even higher, and police departments will continue stealing from citizens on the side of the highway with impunity.
  - MachineShedFred 8y ago
    I think this case is actually a really good one to look at, as there are clear 8th Amendment issues. He already was sentenced for the crime in question, but the asset seized has over 4x the value of the maximum fine for the crime he was guilty of. How is that not "cruel or unusual" ? Also, it presents a hardship for his rehabilitation- he needs to have employment as terms of his release, and if he can't get to work because of the forfeiture of his means of transportation, that presents additional burden to holding up his end of the agreement. He was handed a $40,000 penalty for a $250 crime because the law enforcement agency wanted to sell his Land Rover. How is that justice?
0xdxdt 8y ago
Incorrect application of civil forfeiture laws is one very good reason to have a digital currency. I'm not justifying its use for any illicit purposes but its pretty hard for a cryptocurrency to be seized during a traffic stop.
- URSpider94 8y ago
  The government is doing a nice business in seized bitcoin, thanks. http://bitcoinist.com/us-government-to-sell-over-2000-seized-bitcoin-at-auction/ http://bitcoinist.com/us-government-to-sell-over-2000-seized...
  - 0xdxdt 8y ago
    I didn't say the government couldn't seize bitcoin or cryptocurrencies, only that it is a lot less likely if you get pulled over for a traffic stop. If law enforcement conducts a raid or can otherwise prove someone has been using cryptocurrencies for illicit purposes they have every right to seize it.
- bkor 8y ago
  > Incorrect application of civil forfeiture laws is one very good reason to Those have their own drawbacks. Digital currency can often be tracked (not made to be anonymous). They might or might not have high currency fluctuations, security issues (could be even the device / site you're using), high transaction costs, etc. If you already have cash it seems easier to just do a bank transfer (at least it is within most of Europe).
- acdha 8y ago
  > its pretty hard for a cryptocurrency to be seized during a traffic stop. If one became popular, what magic would prevent it from being added to the same software they use to extract other information from phones?
  - chii 8y ago
    The magic of memory. They can't coerce you to divulge your password for your wallet.

RIMR 8y ago

What's worse is they don't even need a shred of evidence to take your stuff. In some states, having more than $10,000 in cash on your person is automatically considered "evidence of criminal activity". That means that the police, just by seeing that you have more than $10k in cash, can simply seize it and then force you to spend your time and additional money proving that the money didn't come from crime. And, of course, every cent of the cash they take goes to their own department, so they are incentivized to look for cash during traffic stops just so they can literally commit highway robbery... It's also not unusual for an officer to record that they found $15k in cash, only for the person they seized it from to call foul, stating that they had more. Since there is literally nothing protecting the citizen in this situation, they are left without any legal remedy, and the cop gets to pocket your cash for his own illicit purposes. This is a system that encourages corruption with the justification of profit.

slowburning 8y ago
In some states it is illegal to defend against civil forfeiture practices using hidden compartments in your vehicle to store 100% legal property (e.g. cash, jewelry, confidential information)
- VectorLock 8y ago
  Which states?
  - arwineap 8y ago
    OH and CA both have laws on the books against creating (hidden compartment) or operating a vehicle with a hidden compartment if it's intended for something illegal. Drugs and guns is the common justification, but I wonder what would happen if you had say 15k in cash in a compartment.
    - smrtinsert 8y ago
      Dont. Excessive free cash is very typically seized.
      - djrogers 8y ago
        I don’t think we have enough data to say it’s ‘very typically seized’ - certainly it is at times, and in egregious and outrageous fashion, but I don’t think ‘very typically’ is accurate. I personally have on many occasions had well in excess of 10,000 on my person and have never had it seized.
        lostcolony 8y ago
        And you were pulled over, and it was discovered? I mean, even if you were, that constitutes X data points, which is hardly representative.
        topmonk 8y ago
        You're asking him to prove a negative. The onus should be on you.
        mannykannot 8y ago
fredgrott 8y ago
update, its now less than $5,000 and greater than $2,999...ever wonder why the debit/cc cards for poor can only have cash loaded on the card less than $2,999?
scoggs 8y ago
I hope, and if this applies to you maybe this will be a wake up call, nobody reading this walks around with lump sums of cash like this without a receipt from the ATM or bank teller. I hope not.
- URSpider94 8y ago
  And how would that help? Playing policeman’s advocate, maybe you left half of what you just withdrew at home? How would you prove you were carrying the whole amount?

dragonwriter 8y ago

> Civil Forfeiture is essentially "guilty until proven innocent." And I don't mean that hyperbolically, I mean literally if the state takes property or cash under Civil Forfeiture you have to prove your property innocent to get it returned (via expensive civil litigation). False generally, and specifically false for federal law forfeitures, where the burden is explicitly on the government to prove that the property is legally subject to forfeiture provided anyone with an interest in the property sized has asserted that interest. If the property is subject to forfeiture (e.g., as an instrumentality of crime), the owner may still defeat forfeiture by establishing their own personal innocence, under the innocent owner rule: in this case the burden is on the owner, but this only comes into play when the property is proven subject to forfeiture. See, generally, 18 USC Sec. 983(c) and (d).

lovich 8y ago
And? Most civil forfeiture is from small town cops, not the feds. Yea your one type of case is less problematic, but the majority of real life cases are still guilty until proven innocent Edit: additionally, what happens when the government doesn't follow the law? You bring them to court? That's still guilty until proven innocent unless there's a strong IG which is not the case
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > And? Most civil forfeiture is from small town cops, not the feds The significant civil forfeiture crisis has been driven by federal law forfeitures (particularly related to the War on Drugs), executed by local agencies, because federal law authorizes local agencies to conduct forfeitures and allows local agencies to keep (a share of) proceeds of such forfeitures, while most state forfeiture laws dedicate the proceeds of forfeitures to state general funds. This provides a strong incentive for local agencies to use federal law forfeitures as a revenue stream for the agency, an incentive which does not exist for state law forfeitures in most states.
learc83 8y ago
When the feds seize an asset they general do it via administrative forfeiture, which generally only requires probably cause. Once they seize it, the owner has 60 days to file a claim. If no claim is filed, the government keeps the asset. If a claim is filed, the government can either pursue civil or criminal forfeiture. In the case of civil forfeiture there is a right to a trial by jury. However, this isn't automatic. The person has to either have the legal knowledge to know how to file a claim, or they need a lawyer. In many cases no claim is filed because the legal fees necessary to recover the asset will be greater than the value of the asset. Basically if the government sizes a few grand in cash, it will cost you too much to recover it to make it worth it. Also if you're not legally sophisticated, or too poor to pay a lawyer (and can't find free legal help), you're not going to get your money back.

acdha 8y ago

> You only really started to hear about Civil Forfeiture once the police started going too far and taking things from the wealthy or powerful From my perspective it was more like police brutality: the internet and cameras were what made awareness mainstream by making it easy to spread (especially in areas where the local media has a credulous relationship with the police) and harder to dismiss.

coldseattle 8y ago

Maybe so, but did you read the article? This is a person who the Government decided to do a forfeiture after a conviction. I'm glad the SCOTUS is looking at this because it seems to be adding additional penalties after a conviction. However, in the past additional penalties implemented after a conviction (like sex offender registries) have been upheld.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
pc86 8y ago
It's not a good thing SCOTUS is looking at a convicted drug dealer for a CAF case. If this gets upheld the bar to get another CAF case in front of the Court will be even higher, and police departments will continue stealing from citizens on the side of the highway with impunity.
- MachineShedFred 8y ago
  I think this case is actually a really good one to look at, as there are clear 8th Amendment issues. He already was sentenced for the crime in question, but the asset seized has over 4x the value of the maximum fine for the crime he was guilty of. How is that not "cruel or unusual" ? Also, it presents a hardship for his rehabilitation- he needs to have employment as terms of his release, and if he can't get to work because of the forfeiture of his means of transportation, that presents additional burden to holding up his end of the agreement. He was handed a $40,000 penalty for a $250 crime because the law enforcement agency wanted to sell his Land Rover. How is that justice?

0xdxdt 8y ago

Incorrect application of civil forfeiture laws is one very good reason to have a digital currency. I'm not justifying its use for any illicit purposes but its pretty hard for a cryptocurrency to be seized during a traffic stop.

URSpider94 8y ago
The government is doing a nice business in seized bitcoin, thanks. http://bitcoinist.com/us-government-to-sell-over-2000-seized-bitcoin-at-auction/ http://bitcoinist.com/us-government-to-sell-over-2000-seized...
- 0xdxdt 8y ago
  I didn't say the government couldn't seize bitcoin or cryptocurrencies, only that it is a lot less likely if you get pulled over for a traffic stop. If law enforcement conducts a raid or can otherwise prove someone has been using cryptocurrencies for illicit purposes they have every right to seize it.
bkor 8y ago
> Incorrect application of civil forfeiture laws is one very good reason to Those have their own drawbacks. Digital currency can often be tracked (not made to be anonymous). They might or might not have high currency fluctuations, security issues (could be even the device / site you're using), high transaction costs, etc. If you already have cash it seems easier to just do a bank transfer (at least it is within most of Europe).
acdha 8y ago
> its pretty hard for a cryptocurrency to be seized during a traffic stop. If one became popular, what magic would prevent it from being added to the same software they use to extract other information from phones?
- chii 8y ago
  The magic of memory. They can't coerce you to divulge your password for your wallet.