4 ms·

My grandfather (end of WO I and WO II entirely as an adult) always said that people have no idea what bad looks like and will not be satisfied if they have not

My grandfather (end of WO I and WO II entirely as an adult) always said that people have no idea what bad looks like and will not be satisfied if they have not lived through a war (or two) in their own country. We have never had more peace and wealth and yet I see people around me being more and more unhappy and dissatisfied. Possibly my grandfather was right, hope not.

extralego 8y ago
What “we” are you referring to? You and your grandfather? A lot of other people are poor. I promise.
- tluyben2 8y ago
  No, the world; EU and US had no wars on their soil for large periods compared to their histories.
  - r3bl 8y ago
    Fully agree with you on the US, but for the EU, it's just ~25 years. Slovenia and Croatia both went through a violent conflict in early 90s (although Slovenian one was very short). There are EU citizens in their mid-twenties born during the war. If (and that's a giant "if" considering its fragile state of the moment) Serbia becomes the next EU member (optimistic estimate is 2025), the most recent conflict will shift to late 90s, and you will again have people in their mid-twenties born during the conflict. That's really not that long.
    - tluyben2 8y ago
      You are absolutely right. Sorry about that oversight (I am from NL; I do know better); too living in my own world. Stand corrected. Then an interesting tidbit would be if people are struggling mentally as much as they do in north EU or US?
- mrep 8y ago
  They may be poor but overall, they are almost certainly doing much better than the poor in the past. I believe what OP is referring to is that people think in relatives such that they compare how their life is to others/the past. With no bad wars in most countries recently to compare against horrific times, everyone is comparing themselves to everyone else's life hence making them unhappy despite the good times we actually are having nowadays. This also somewhat aligns with the many studies showing some of the downsides of social media.
johnchristopher 8y ago
It's not about who has or had it the hardest. It's about living with hope things'll get better.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  These suicides are evidence of the exhaustion of hope. So how do you provide hope again?
  - mistermann 8y ago
    Giving some plausible reason to have hope is a good place to start. "It always works out" seems to be enough for many people (typically, those for whom it has worked out), but for those who know that, actually, no, it doesn't "always work out", an actually plausible reason is often required. And for others, even that isn't enough.
    - krageon 8y ago
      The whole point of hope is that it doesn't have a plausible reason. That's what makes it hope and not knowledge. If you already know things will get better, you do not need to hope they will, you can just wait for it to happen.
      - mistermann 8y ago
        > The whole point of hope is that it doesn't have a plausible reason. That's what makes it hope and not knowledge. This seems a bit coarse. Working hard to move from the lower class to solidly middle class is not guaranteed, so the pursuit of that is based on both hope and knowledge. However, if the statistical likelihood of this move begins decreasing, and simultaneously the rates of people moving in the opposite direction is also rising, one could argue that a natural response would be for "hope" levels to decrease.
        krageon 8y ago
remarkEon 8y ago
Sadly I think your grandfather was largely on to something. My Great Grandfather was a WWI Veteran, and my Grandmother (his daughter) would say similar things when I was a kid, referencing him, while my siblings and I would stay with them for the summer - we’d complain about dumb stuff (it was a small town, we were from the city). War shocks people into reordering what’s important, and that typically involves focusing on your family. While it’s true we live in an era of wealth and comfort never seen in human history, it’s terrifying to me that a war is what it would take to get people to enjoy it and be happy.
azeirah 8y ago
There is no light without darkness
PakG1 8y ago
OK, I've always felt weird thinking this because whenever I've ever mentioned it, other people always think I'm an idiot. My life is amazing. If it gets really horrible, I think I can handle it because I see so many examples of other people handling it. I saw some comments of people's attempts on the web to follow super-cheap diets as an experiment. Other people wrote comments about how those people were wasting money by buying organic eggs, not buying and pre-soaking beans instead of buying canned beans, etc. Yeah, if necessary, I think I can do that. I lived a whole summer on instant noodles once. I think I can do it again. OK, move to the next level. I see people making less than $1000 USD per month in China and still able to raise a kid. They eat rice and veggies every day, living costs can be low if you want them to be. Yeah, I think I can do that. My wife prefers to be mostly vegetarian, so I'm halfway there. Most dinners, we literally only eat some leafy greens and cabbage, and maybe some rice. OK, move to the next level, I volunteered in villages where living standards are super low. Sanitation can suck. But they make it work. If they can do it, why can't I? I've done it for a short-term period before. Can I do it for a long-term period? If I'm forced to, why not? OK, move to the next level. War, genocide, torture, the works. Many people don't survive that stuff. Some do. How the heck do I look at what they go through and think that my life sucks and there's no hope for the future? I am endowed with a great education, a job that pays my bills, and self-confidence that I can make it in any situation and any environment, no matter how bad it gets. So two things here. First, everything is a matter of perspective. I don't know why people think I'm an idiot for thinking my life would be great even if I was forced to take a crap in a hole in the dirt where there's no plumbing. If they can do it and still be able to laugh and be happy, why can't I? Second, I think the environment thing is huge. I can understand why people who are stuck in certain environments can never get the mindset necessary to escape it. Inner city gang problems, extreme poverty, etc, etc. There is some systemic crap in society that really stops people from realizing their potential and getting the confidence to even step outside their comfort zone. I don't know the answer to that, and smarter minds than me have tried to figure it out. Loneliness is a thing too. How the heck did we get from the place where it's great to know your neighbours to neighbours don't want to know each other, as others are commenting? Why is it so hard for people to make friends, mate, etc? I get there are hard issues in our society that people haven't been able to figure out. BUT... I've always thought to myself, "eh, could be worse" and I've always joked with other people, "hey, I'm still alive!" And people think I'm an idiot for considering that I'd be OK taking a crap in a hole in the dirt with no plumbing. In the meantime, I get really annoyed when people talk about their first world problems. Yes, I can be hypocritical about this too, of course. I have my own first world problems like wishing I could find a job I enjoy more. Life goes on.
lars 8y ago
Amount of peace and wealth are clearly not fully predictive of good mental health. Public health officials in England expected a civilian mental health crisis during WW2. This didn't happen, the incidence of "neurosis" remained flat. On some level, humans thrive under hardship. Social cohesion goes up, meaning and purpose comes easy. People who lose their job become less happy, and do not recover until they get a job again. Bill Gates wakes up and goes to his job, not because he needs money but because he needs to matter. This worries me about AI and automation, universal basic income is needed, but doesn't solve people's need for having a purpose.
- jahaja 8y ago
  > People who lose their job become less happy, and do not recover until they get a job again. This is just scratching the surface. Why do people that lose their job become less happy? I think it's much more likely a combination of stigmatization, uncertain access to basic needs, and social isolation (friends and family are probably working after all). That the job itself is the sole, or even the main, purpose provider doesn't seem to hold up imo. I think that furthering the skin deep idea of job = purpose isn't helpful in societies obsessed with work.

extralego 8y ago

What “we” are you referring to? You and your grandfather? A lot of other people are poor. I promise.

tluyben2 8y ago
No, the world; EU and US had no wars on their soil for large periods compared to their histories.
- r3bl 8y ago
  Fully agree with you on the US, but for the EU, it's just ~25 years. Slovenia and Croatia both went through a violent conflict in early 90s (although Slovenian one was very short). There are EU citizens in their mid-twenties born during the war. If (and that's a giant "if" considering its fragile state of the moment) Serbia becomes the next EU member (optimistic estimate is 2025), the most recent conflict will shift to late 90s, and you will again have people in their mid-twenties born during the conflict. That's really not that long.
  - tluyben2 8y ago
    You are absolutely right. Sorry about that oversight (I am from NL; I do know better); too living in my own world. Stand corrected. Then an interesting tidbit would be if people are struggling mentally as much as they do in north EU or US?
mrep 8y ago
They may be poor but overall, they are almost certainly doing much better than the poor in the past. I believe what OP is referring to is that people think in relatives such that they compare how their life is to others/the past. With no bad wars in most countries recently to compare against horrific times, everyone is comparing themselves to everyone else's life hence making them unhappy despite the good times we actually are having nowadays. This also somewhat aligns with the many studies showing some of the downsides of social media.

johnchristopher 8y ago

It's not about who has or had it the hardest. It's about living with hope things'll get better.

toomuchtodo 8y ago
These suicides are evidence of the exhaustion of hope. So how do you provide hope again?
- mistermann 8y ago
  Giving some plausible reason to have hope is a good place to start. "It always works out" seems to be enough for many people (typically, those for whom it has worked out), but for those who know that, actually, no, it doesn't "always work out", an actually plausible reason is often required. And for others, even that isn't enough.
  - krageon 8y ago
    The whole point of hope is that it doesn't have a plausible reason. That's what makes it hope and not knowledge. If you already know things will get better, you do not need to hope they will, you can just wait for it to happen.
    - mistermann 8y ago
      > The whole point of hope is that it doesn't have a plausible reason. That's what makes it hope and not knowledge. This seems a bit coarse. Working hard to move from the lower class to solidly middle class is not guaranteed, so the pursuit of that is based on both hope and knowledge. However, if the statistical likelihood of this move begins decreasing, and simultaneously the rates of people moving in the opposite direction is also rising, one could argue that a natural response would be for "hope" levels to decrease.
      - krageon 8y ago

remarkEon 8y ago

Sadly I think your grandfather was largely on to something. My Great Grandfather was a WWI Veteran, and my Grandmother (his daughter) would say similar things when I was a kid, referencing him, while my siblings and I would stay with them for the summer - we’d complain about dumb stuff (it was a small town, we were from the city). War shocks people into reordering what’s important, and that typically involves focusing on your family. While it’s true we live in an era of wealth and comfort never seen in human history, it’s terrifying to me that a war is what it would take to get people to enjoy it and be happy.

azeirah 8y ago

There is no light without darkness

PakG1 8y ago

OK, I've always felt weird thinking this because whenever I've ever mentioned it, other people always think I'm an idiot. My life is amazing. If it gets really horrible, I think I can handle it because I see so many examples of other people handling it. I saw some comments of people's attempts on the web to follow super-cheap diets as an experiment. Other people wrote comments about how those people were wasting money by buying organic eggs, not buying and pre-soaking beans instead of buying canned beans, etc. Yeah, if necessary, I think I can do that. I lived a whole summer on instant noodles once. I think I can do it again. OK, move to the next level. I see people making less than $1000 USD per month in China and still able to raise a kid. They eat rice and veggies every day, living costs can be low if you want them to be. Yeah, I think I can do that. My wife prefers to be mostly vegetarian, so I'm halfway there. Most dinners, we literally only eat some leafy greens and cabbage, and maybe some rice. OK, move to the next level, I volunteered in villages where living standards are super low. Sanitation can suck. But they make it work. If they can do it, why can't I? I've done it for a short-term period before. Can I do it for a long-term period? If I'm forced to, why not? OK, move to the next level. War, genocide, torture, the works. Many people don't survive that stuff. Some do. How the heck do I look at what they go through and think that my life sucks and there's no hope for the future? I am endowed with a great education, a job that pays my bills, and self-confidence that I can make it in any situation and any environment, no matter how bad it gets. So two things here. First, everything is a matter of perspective. I don't know why people think I'm an idiot for thinking my life would be great even if I was forced to take a crap in a hole in the dirt where there's no plumbing. If they can do it and still be able to laugh and be happy, why can't I? Second, I think the environment thing is huge. I can understand why people who are stuck in certain environments can never get the mindset necessary to escape it. Inner city gang problems, extreme poverty, etc, etc. There is some systemic crap in society that really stops people from realizing their potential and getting the confidence to even step outside their comfort zone. I don't know the answer to that, and smarter minds than me have tried to figure it out. Loneliness is a thing too. How the heck did we get from the place where it's great to know your neighbours to neighbours don't want to know each other, as others are commenting? Why is it so hard for people to make friends, mate, etc? I get there are hard issues in our society that people haven't been able to figure out. BUT... I've always thought to myself, "eh, could be worse" and I've always joked with other people, "hey, I'm still alive!" And people think I'm an idiot for considering that I'd be OK taking a crap in a hole in the dirt with no plumbing. In the meantime, I get really annoyed when people talk about their first world problems. Yes, I can be hypocritical about this too, of course. I have my own first world problems like wishing I could find a job I enjoy more. Life goes on.

lars 8y ago

Amount of peace and wealth are clearly not fully predictive of good mental health. Public health officials in England expected a civilian mental health crisis during WW2. This didn't happen, the incidence of "neurosis" remained flat. On some level, humans thrive under hardship. Social cohesion goes up, meaning and purpose comes easy. People who lose their job become less happy, and do not recover until they get a job again. Bill Gates wakes up and goes to his job, not because he needs money but because he needs to matter. This worries me about AI and automation, universal basic income is needed, but doesn't solve people's need for having a purpose.

jahaja 8y ago
> People who lose their job become less happy, and do not recover until they get a job again. This is just scratching the surface. Why do people that lose their job become less happy? I think it's much more likely a combination of stigmatization, uncertain access to basic needs, and social isolation (friends and family are probably working after all). That the job itself is the sole, or even the main, purpose provider doesn't seem to hold up imo. I think that furthering the skin deep idea of job = purpose isn't helpful in societies obsessed with work.