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There is, without a doubt, a Bitcoin cult. Or more generally, crypto-currency cults. The headline reads like it's only a cult, which isn't the case. Even the

There is, without a doubt, a Bitcoin cult. Or more generally, crypto-currency cults. The headline reads like it's only a cult, which isn't the case. Even the most critical observer must concede that these distributed networks are novel and interesting. The farther you move from social media, the less cult-like things get. The best discussion remains on listservs, and there is a lot of interesting and substantive discussion occurring.

tekromancr 8y ago
If you don't mind me asking, what are some listservs worth reading?
- plankers 8y ago
  The bitcoin-dev mailing list is quite technical, but can be quite amusing when egos begin to clash. https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d...
jenga22 8y ago
A lot of things are cults and it doesn't have to do much with social media or the behaviors he is outlining. Apple - You can argue Apple, the hardware company, is a cult. The fans are rabid in their support for the company. Often the discussions are not at all civil and in this particular case there is no financial incentive. Let's move even farther away. There are cults for clothing companies. Companies that make drinks. Gaming companies. Youtube streamers. Heck, there even cults in processor companies. Take for example AMD. I have had chats with people who just get livid when Intel vs. AMD conversations come up and I am thinking to myself "We are talking about CPUs right?". There are even cults with Operating Systems. Just ask the nix vs. Windows folks. Those discussions get heated. So I am not sure what he is trying to argue here. There will always be folks developing who will have a civil discourse and try to make the currency better and then there will be the peanut gallery. That comes with anything that gains wider exposure.
- SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
  I think maybe you are confusing or just being hyperbolic on the difference between fan club and religious devotion.
  - sgt101 8y ago
    There are many differences (of course!) but one common strand is that both are elements of the adherent's identity. In the case of Crypto there is another defining commonality - which is life style and life chances. Religions provide a vehicle (the community) which provides adherents with different chances from those outside, Crypto does the same - via money... if you have invested you might be rich, or poor, but your life is changed.
    - jenga22 8y ago
      Right. I agree. I am also going one step further and arguing that crypto is more of a fan club then a cult. There are cults way stronger that illicit a far greater emotion reaction that crypto. Even now, when the price is in the toilet, a lot of really smart people are having sane discussions across sub-reddits. And those very smart people are still checkin in code and making improvements. This has happened before. During the BBS era and ARPA Net era, a lot of people said those things were "cute" and only used by underground cult figures. They said that people who believed in the "internet" were dillusional that a global network would ever happen. They also said that it would have limited impact on society. They said it would stay largely with universities. Newspapers laughed. Television networks laughed. Music companies shrugged it off. But the one thing I learned from both those eras is if there are a lot of smart people working in it then it is not to be discounted.
      - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
        > BBS era and ARPA Net era These services were launched to solve a practical problem. Bitcoin was launched as the manifestation of an ideology.
wozniacki 8y ago
You care to list some of those listservs / fora for those interested?
dnomad 8y ago
> The headline reads like it's only a cult, which isn't the case. Bitcoin sold itself as a cult from the very beginning so it's no surprise that all manner of cults have congregated around the technology. Bitcoin is an interesting example of a paranoid technology: it purports to be "trustless" and perfectly "fair" and it requires only a "faith" in math. The reality is very different but it's no surprise such a marketing pitch would appeal to the paranoid style that dominates these groups. Communities that don't value trust accumulate paranoiacs and then become prone to delusion. This is the self-defeating logic that dooms cults in the end: delusions can persist for a while, until they don't, and the real world wins. With Bitcoin I suspect the real world will win once the miners, having extracted 95% of the value from the trade, leave and turn their fleets towards more profitable ventures. This is the real bubble [1] at work, after all, and compared to this all the schemes and schemes and wacky delusions promoted by the holders is nothing. [1] https://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate?timespan=all https://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate?timespan=all
plankers 8y ago
After spending a few years in the bitcoin space, I avoid anything at the nexus of crypto and social media like the plague. You can almost always find interesting folks to chat with and answer your questions on IRC.
simias 8y ago
>Even the most critical observer must concede that these distributed networks are novel and interesting. Frankly that's besides the point these days. Lurk in cryptocurrency subreddits for a while and see that hardly anybody talks about the technology anymore, it's all about "memes" and very dubious projections. Things like this for instance: https://i.redditmedia.com/51566F6-xO0zIBDD7HzYRZyEGhDpMqQpArsSGxK0P0E.jpg?s=b9dddd2ad1000ccbee9e016d3c699e70 https://i.redditmedia.com/51566F6-xO0zIBDD7HzYRZyEGhDpMqQpAr... (fresh off the bitcoin subreddit front page). I mean, look at TFA, part of the confusion stems from the fact that many people in the community simply didn't know how PoW functions (or even what it is in the first place). It's not about technology anymore, it reads like a Multi-Level Marketing forum. Nobody cares about what it is, they just want to get rich.
- jhobag 8y ago
  you're using r/bitcoin as an example? one of the most well known cryptocurrency subs for toxicity and juvenile mods
  - simias 8y ago
    Doesn't really matter for the community mindset I'm talking about. See /r/btc/, /r/cryptocurrency and dozens more, it's mostly discussions about the price of cryptocurrency, dubious long term projections, memes and very little technical discussion. Even articles about a potential application of Blockchain technology are generally met from an angle of "what coin is this going to pump?" See for instance: https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/8ti8z9/thekey_has_recently_entered_into_cooperation_on/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/8ti8z9/thek... . Nobody talks about anything besides trading.
    - woogiewonka 8y ago
      I suspect a large number of comments across any crypto sub are from fake accounts - marketing teams, account farms, team members themselves. The level of fraud and scam in crypto now is so high, it's hard to distinguish genuine comments from fake stuff.
floatboth 8y ago
> these distributed networks are novel and interesting They were interesting when the bitcoin paper was released. Then people (outside of the cult) realized that you Do Not Need A Trustless System. Society is built on trust. Wasting ENORMOUS amounts of power just to replace a few trusted entities with 51% of the network is a horrible idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCHab0dNnj4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCHab0dNnj4
- hnisgroupthink 8y ago
  Doesn't prevent bad actors. See various banker scams. Codifying rules helps prevent bad actors.
kapauldo 8y ago
It is only a cult in the sense that it the speculators are 10 years ahead of the consumers. Most of crypto's traction is speculation. There is almost zero consumer traction. The cult members don't want to see this, and this purposeful avoidance of truth is what makes it culty.
lamontcg 8y ago
> Even the most critical observer must concede that these distributed networks are novel and interesting. Nope. Anything you can do with blockchain you can do simpler and easier and cheaper either with a standard database, or something like git with signed git commits and a trusted third party. The blockchain exists to try to remove trusted third parties but leads to every increasing energy consumption or order to fuel incentive for "proof of work", and the coin concept is a flat out ponzi scheme. All these ideas need to get relegated to the dustbin of history.

tekromancr 8y ago

If you don't mind me asking, what are some listservs worth reading?

plankers 8y ago
The bitcoin-dev mailing list is quite technical, but can be quite amusing when egos begin to clash. https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d...

jenga22 8y ago

A lot of things are cults and it doesn't have to do much with social media or the behaviors he is outlining. Apple - You can argue Apple, the hardware company, is a cult. The fans are rabid in their support for the company. Often the discussions are not at all civil and in this particular case there is no financial incentive. Let's move even farther away. There are cults for clothing companies. Companies that make drinks. Gaming companies. Youtube streamers. Heck, there even cults in processor companies. Take for example AMD. I have had chats with people who just get livid when Intel vs. AMD conversations come up and I am thinking to myself "We are talking about CPUs right?". There are even cults with Operating Systems. Just ask the nix vs. Windows folks. Those discussions get heated. So I am not sure what he is trying to argue here. There will always be folks developing who will have a civil discourse and try to make the currency better and then there will be the peanut gallery. That comes with anything that gains wider exposure.

SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
I think maybe you are confusing or just being hyperbolic on the difference between fan club and religious devotion.
- sgt101 8y ago
  There are many differences (of course!) but one common strand is that both are elements of the adherent's identity. In the case of Crypto there is another defining commonality - which is life style and life chances. Religions provide a vehicle (the community) which provides adherents with different chances from those outside, Crypto does the same - via money... if you have invested you might be rich, or poor, but your life is changed.
  - jenga22 8y ago
    Right. I agree. I am also going one step further and arguing that crypto is more of a fan club then a cult. There are cults way stronger that illicit a far greater emotion reaction that crypto. Even now, when the price is in the toilet, a lot of really smart people are having sane discussions across sub-reddits. And those very smart people are still checkin in code and making improvements. This has happened before. During the BBS era and ARPA Net era, a lot of people said those things were "cute" and only used by underground cult figures. They said that people who believed in the "internet" were dillusional that a global network would ever happen. They also said that it would have limited impact on society. They said it would stay largely with universities. Newspapers laughed. Television networks laughed. Music companies shrugged it off. But the one thing I learned from both those eras is if there are a lot of smart people working in it then it is not to be discounted.
    - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
      > BBS era and ARPA Net era These services were launched to solve a practical problem. Bitcoin was launched as the manifestation of an ideology.

wozniacki 8y ago

You care to list some of those listservs / fora for those interested?

dnomad 8y ago

> The headline reads like it's only a cult, which isn't the case. Bitcoin sold itself as a cult from the very beginning so it's no surprise that all manner of cults have congregated around the technology. Bitcoin is an interesting example of a paranoid technology: it purports to be "trustless" and perfectly "fair" and it requires only a "faith" in math. The reality is very different but it's no surprise such a marketing pitch would appeal to the paranoid style that dominates these groups. Communities that don't value trust accumulate paranoiacs and then become prone to delusion. This is the self-defeating logic that dooms cults in the end: delusions can persist for a while, until they don't, and the real world wins. With Bitcoin I suspect the real world will win once the miners, having extracted 95% of the value from the trade, leave and turn their fleets towards more profitable ventures. This is the real bubble [1] at work, after all, and compared to this all the schemes and schemes and wacky delusions promoted by the holders is nothing. [1] https://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate?timespan=all https://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate?timespan=all

plankers 8y ago

After spending a few years in the bitcoin space, I avoid anything at the nexus of crypto and social media like the plague. You can almost always find interesting folks to chat with and answer your questions on IRC.

simias 8y ago

>Even the most critical observer must concede that these distributed networks are novel and interesting. Frankly that's besides the point these days. Lurk in cryptocurrency subreddits for a while and see that hardly anybody talks about the technology anymore, it's all about "memes" and very dubious projections. Things like this for instance: https://i.redditmedia.com/51566F6-xO0zIBDD7HzYRZyEGhDpMqQpArsSGxK0P0E.jpg?s=b9dddd2ad1000ccbee9e016d3c699e70 https://i.redditmedia.com/51566F6-xO0zIBDD7HzYRZyEGhDpMqQpAr... (fresh off the bitcoin subreddit front page). I mean, look at TFA, part of the confusion stems from the fact that many people in the community simply didn't know how PoW functions (or even what it is in the first place). It's not about technology anymore, it reads like a Multi-Level Marketing forum. Nobody cares about what it is, they just want to get rich.

jhobag 8y ago
you're using r/bitcoin as an example? one of the most well known cryptocurrency subs for toxicity and juvenile mods
- simias 8y ago
  Doesn't really matter for the community mindset I'm talking about. See /r/btc/, /r/cryptocurrency and dozens more, it's mostly discussions about the price of cryptocurrency, dubious long term projections, memes and very little technical discussion. Even articles about a potential application of Blockchain technology are generally met from an angle of "what coin is this going to pump?" See for instance: https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/8ti8z9/thekey_has_recently_entered_into_cooperation_on/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/8ti8z9/thek... . Nobody talks about anything besides trading.
  - woogiewonka 8y ago
    I suspect a large number of comments across any crypto sub are from fake accounts - marketing teams, account farms, team members themselves. The level of fraud and scam in crypto now is so high, it's hard to distinguish genuine comments from fake stuff.

floatboth 8y ago

> these distributed networks are novel and interesting They were interesting when the bitcoin paper was released. Then people (outside of the cult) realized that you Do Not Need A Trustless System. Society is built on trust. Wasting ENORMOUS amounts of power just to replace a few trusted entities with 51% of the network is a horrible idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCHab0dNnj4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCHab0dNnj4

hnisgroupthink 8y ago
Doesn't prevent bad actors. See various banker scams. Codifying rules helps prevent bad actors.

kapauldo 8y ago

It is only a cult in the sense that it the speculators are 10 years ahead of the consumers. Most of crypto's traction is speculation. There is almost zero consumer traction. The cult members don't want to see this, and this purposeful avoidance of truth is what makes it culty.

lamontcg 8y ago

> Even the most critical observer must concede that these distributed networks are novel and interesting. Nope. Anything you can do with blockchain you can do simpler and easier and cheaper either with a standard database, or something like git with signed git commits and a trusted third party. The blockchain exists to try to remove trusted third parties but leads to every increasing energy consumption or order to fuel incentive for "proof of work", and the coin concept is a flat out ponzi scheme. All these ideas need to get relegated to the dustbin of history.