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This is not a case of teenagers stumbling across some leaked software and then getting disproportionately punished for the unauthorized access. This is a about

This is not a case of teenagers stumbling across some leaked software and then getting disproportionately punished for the unauthorized access. This is a about a guy who, in one example, tried actively to sell leaked software for profit. This is not about kids just having some harmless fun.

wjnc 8y ago
The thing is... morality is a lot more fluid in the years < 20. Doesn't absolve him from responsibility, but the protagonist was hacking Xbox code at 10 and was into serious stuff long before being an adult. If someone, anyone would have put him aside and gave him serious options, he would have probably taken them.
- blackflame7000 8y ago
  I'm inclined to agree that people who commit "crimes of skill" are better able to repay their debt to society by using their ability for good rather than rot in a cage.
  - wolfgke 8y ago
    > I'm inclined to agree that people who commit "crimes of skill" are better able to repay their debt to society by using their ability for good rather than rot in a cage. I agree with the mind of this statement. The problem is: For lots of such skills, it is hard to find jobs where these are needed (for example reverse engineering). Based on my personal observation, to stay in the example, there exist much more skilled reverse engineers than jobs where these skills are useful/needed.
    - aerovistae 8y ago
      I find this profoundly unlikely.
      - wolfgke 8y ago
        > I find this profoundly unlikely. I know lots of examples where this is the case (I am talking about Germany, where the situation might be a little different, but I do not believe that the difference is too large). I know some really great reverse engineers who have difficulties to find a decent job (they get through with some badly paid jobs that are far below their skills). I can assure that I have hardly ever seen a job ad where reverse engineering (as in software) skills are even mentioned. And I openly admit that I (who also have some knowledge in reverse engineering) would not even know where to ask/look for a job that gratifies such skills. Be assured that I would have passed on such job hints if I knew of any. In my observation the whole "IT security" scene (I am aware this is a somewhat different area than reverse engineering) is a close-knit circle that is hard to get into. If you are able to get into, I have strong evidence that the salary is actually rather good. But I have no idea how to get into the inner circle where the job offers await. Seriously: I have some colleagues who even asked me with my knowledge about security why I do not get into this the field of activity of IT security. I tell them to give me hints how to get into this inner circle where the interesting job offers await. None of these loudmouths could tell me. Of course... EDIT: I could go on and on. The statements stay the mostly the same all the time: Where can such a person find job offers?
        blackflame7000 8y ago
        Reverse Engineering is a much broader field than simply in the context of software engineering. But it takes an engineering mind to be able to replicate another engineers work. Other examples include: bomb squad detectives, Root cause analysis experts, market/competition research, Prototyping(taking apart an existing product and adapting it to make a new one). NTSB agent which I think would be really interesting.
        wolfgke 8y ago
        > Reverse Engineering is a much broader field than simply in the context of software engineering. I will not disagree. But I am explicitly talking about reverse engineering as in the original article (i.e. mostly software and to a lesser (but not less important) sense electronics). I do not know enough details about the other segments that you mention to make deep statements about them. But I am pretty confident in my opinion that the kind of skills that you require for them are really different from those that you need for software/electronics reverse engineering. What I want to say with this: The skills that you need for hacking an XBox (as in the article) do hardly ever transfer to any of your examples (bomb squad detectives, Root cause analysis experts, market/competition research, Prototyping, NTSB agent).
    - blackflame7000 8y ago
      Do you have any idea how many engineers on a daily basis are either reverse engineering some government weapon, or a competitions product, or a geopolitical strategy? Being able to understand exactly how things work, allow you to anticipate and even dictate how they will behave.
jackpirate 8y ago
The sentences of 18-24 months seem entirely reasonable for the crimes committed too. At least compared to some other horror stories you hear about sentencing for computer crimes. These kids definitely have a chance to put all of this behind them and be productive members of society.
- cududa 8y ago
  I wasn’t commenting on the activity or punishment, more just the generally similar circumstances and outcomes.
- wolfgke 8y ago
  > and be productive members of society. I personally doubt whether one wants to be a productive member of a society that put one into jail.
- krageon 8y ago
  Of course with the american prison system being the way it is, the chances of these children coming out in any way better prepared to contribute to society than before they were imprisoned are very slim.

wjnc 8y ago

The thing is... morality is a lot more fluid in the years < 20. Doesn't absolve him from responsibility, but the protagonist was hacking Xbox code at 10 and was into serious stuff long before being an adult. If someone, anyone would have put him aside and gave him serious options, he would have probably taken them.

blackflame7000 8y ago
I'm inclined to agree that people who commit "crimes of skill" are better able to repay their debt to society by using their ability for good rather than rot in a cage.
- wolfgke 8y ago
  > I'm inclined to agree that people who commit "crimes of skill" are better able to repay their debt to society by using their ability for good rather than rot in a cage. I agree with the mind of this statement. The problem is: For lots of such skills, it is hard to find jobs where these are needed (for example reverse engineering). Based on my personal observation, to stay in the example, there exist much more skilled reverse engineers than jobs where these skills are useful/needed.
  - aerovistae 8y ago
    I find this profoundly unlikely.
    - wolfgke 8y ago
      > I find this profoundly unlikely. I know lots of examples where this is the case (I am talking about Germany, where the situation might be a little different, but I do not believe that the difference is too large). I know some really great reverse engineers who have difficulties to find a decent job (they get through with some badly paid jobs that are far below their skills). I can assure that I have hardly ever seen a job ad where reverse engineering (as in software) skills are even mentioned. And I openly admit that I (who also have some knowledge in reverse engineering) would not even know where to ask/look for a job that gratifies such skills. Be assured that I would have passed on such job hints if I knew of any. In my observation the whole "IT security" scene (I am aware this is a somewhat different area than reverse engineering) is a close-knit circle that is hard to get into. If you are able to get into, I have strong evidence that the salary is actually rather good. But I have no idea how to get into the inner circle where the job offers await. Seriously: I have some colleagues who even asked me with my knowledge about security why I do not get into this the field of activity of IT security. I tell them to give me hints how to get into this inner circle where the interesting job offers await. None of these loudmouths could tell me. Of course... EDIT: I could go on and on. The statements stay the mostly the same all the time: Where can such a person find job offers?
      - blackflame7000 8y ago
        Reverse Engineering is a much broader field than simply in the context of software engineering. But it takes an engineering mind to be able to replicate another engineers work. Other examples include: bomb squad detectives, Root cause analysis experts, market/competition research, Prototyping(taking apart an existing product and adapting it to make a new one). NTSB agent which I think would be really interesting.
        wolfgke 8y ago
        > Reverse Engineering is a much broader field than simply in the context of software engineering. I will not disagree. But I am explicitly talking about reverse engineering as in the original article (i.e. mostly software and to a lesser (but not less important) sense electronics). I do not know enough details about the other segments that you mention to make deep statements about them. But I am pretty confident in my opinion that the kind of skills that you require for them are really different from those that you need for software/electronics reverse engineering. What I want to say with this: The skills that you need for hacking an XBox (as in the article) do hardly ever transfer to any of your examples (bomb squad detectives, Root cause analysis experts, market/competition research, Prototyping, NTSB agent).
  - blackflame7000 8y ago
    Do you have any idea how many engineers on a daily basis are either reverse engineering some government weapon, or a competitions product, or a geopolitical strategy? Being able to understand exactly how things work, allow you to anticipate and even dictate how they will behave.

jackpirate 8y ago

The sentences of 18-24 months seem entirely reasonable for the crimes committed too. At least compared to some other horror stories you hear about sentencing for computer crimes. These kids definitely have a chance to put all of this behind them and be productive members of society.

cududa 8y ago
I wasn’t commenting on the activity or punishment, more just the generally similar circumstances and outcomes.
wolfgke 8y ago
> and be productive members of society. I personally doubt whether one wants to be a productive member of a society that put one into jail.
krageon 8y ago
Of course with the american prison system being the way it is, the chances of these children coming out in any way better prepared to contribute to society than before they were imprisoned are very slim.