11 ms·

Masters of Love: Lasting relationships come down to kindness, generosity (2014)

276 points by johnny313 8y ago

archi42 8y ago
Hmm, 2014. But a good read.
- wslh 8y ago
  Not sure about what is wrong about an article from 2014. It is not talking about the last JavaScript implementation or AI achievement.
  - 5thbootloader 8y ago
    Perhaps the comment was referencing a myriad of different factors which might affect relationships now that didn't exist in 2014? According to the World Happiness Report 2017, there is a trend which suggests Americans are growing less happy each year. So maybe in the interim of 4 years the world has become drastically less optimistic about intimate relationships... Or not.
    - wslh 8y ago
      If we are leveling our critical analysis and skepticism to the extreme I would say that all these studies are never settled and the World Happiness Report does not invalidate findings of the other study. > there is a trend which suggests Americans are growing less happy each year. So maybe in the interim of 4 years the world. So are you saying that Amricans = World? Please (for example) go to Spain and look about how happiness works differently than America.
      - 5thbootloader 8y ago
        Ah, I was not intending for my response to be taken literally, sorry. I was merely trying to show how ridiculous his claim was since there was no rational argument for it. I'll have to work on my presentation skills next time.
  - archi42 8y ago
    Just that it wasn't tagged as being "old" when I commented. As I said, it's a good read. Why would I say that if I deemed it out of date?
ttul 8y ago
I can vouch for the futility of remaining in a “disaster” relationship for far too long...
_emacsomancer_ 8y ago
Good non-romantic relationships also often come down to kindness & generosity.
- stevenwoo 8y ago
  I was reminded of the hackernews ethos to assume the best of commenters when engaging them as per the active constructive corner of the relationship action/reaction thing in the article.
- Pica_soO 8y ago
  All relationships boil down to two life-forms trying to pull one another over the counter to archive goals that are detrimental to the short term interests of both individuals. For that to work, both sides got to have mental bugs, exploits and hooks. Have fun on your next date, finding out what emotional responses are part of the long term bonding, why they are important and how they act directly/ indirectly against your interests.
  - DougN7 8y ago
    I would postulate that is the definition if immaturity, or at least short-sightedness. Sooner or later people start looking for ways that both can win, in the short term and in the long term. Sometimes that means giving up something you want now for something you want even more later. It takes time to see that though, which is why it’s rare to see in very young people. (I don’t know you personally, so this isn’t directed at you, just a counter argument).
telltruth 8y ago
Ok... I'll bite. This feel good article doesn't do justice to relationship issues at all. A lot of relationship issues simply arise from compromises that have been done in past. May be woman is desperate in finding husband and man is realizing he is getting out of options. Both gets married despite knowing incompatibilities here and there. People tell them "opposite attracts". Ummm... no. There is of course honeymoon period and then eventually kids enter in life. Suddenly woman doesn't feel need to make man happy as much and man is realizing his role being transformed to essentially a bank account. Things start falling apart and there is no right thing to fix this. Sure, kindness/generosity etc helps on both sides but the fundamental root cause is folks ending up together due to short term biological reproduction needs that then invariably gets extended as kids enter in their lives. It's not a coincidence that lot of marriages fall apart when kids are between 8 to 12 years old. That's the time kids are becoming independent, women gets more time to do job and run household according to her desires all the while man starts to understand that there is very little left for them to be in. Some better educated couples would hold off until kids go to college and there is spike in divorce rate when kids graduate from high school.
- zxcvvcxz 8y ago
  Somewhat raw but at the end of the day I'd say mostly true. I'll add my own conjecture: the root problem is that this hypothetical couple you describe (who is more common than many would like to admit) are both settling. They are settling because they didn't take marriage seriously earlier in their lives. They didn't take marriage seriously because society stopped forcing them to do so. And nature also didn't force them to either, thanks to birth control. These aren't individuals at fault here - these are systemic incentives warping previously traditional behavior. So then this couple got into their 30s, which isn't young, as the decades are not created equal. And they realized - oh shit, better actually try figuring out how to have a family, lest we live alone and with limited meaning for the latter 40 years of life. Seriously - what are people thinking that they'll be happy being single into their 40s and beyond? Here's a sad truth: most people will get a decent, but not super meaningful job. There can only be so many entrepreneurs and rockstars. So from ages 35 onwards, you better be set up to have a family and create something that will provide you meaning for Act II of life, because it's quite long.
throwaway713 8y ago
I'll quote Richard White's answer on Quora to the question "What was the worst thing your parents ever did to you?" > Every day from as early as I can remember, they were clearly and obviously in love with each other. Even after 50 years of marriage they were still acting like two teenagers going steady. They always supported each other in everything they did or tried to do. They "had each other's backs" at all times. > I have spent my life trying to find that same kind of relationship - and haven't been able to. > They unknowingly set the bar too high, I guess. Like Richard, my parents had an essentially perfect marriage for 18 years until my mother passed away from cancer. They never fought. Ever. They were truly each other's best friend. I guess as a kid I just assumed that all marriages were like that since I didn't grow up knowing otherwise. My biggest dream in life had always been to have a marriage like theirs. My own marriage just passed the one year mark, and unfortunately it has been a disaster so far. I'm crushed in so many ways, and it's really just taken the spirit out of me. I hope we can fix it (with counseling) but I'm not sure if we can truly ever recover; I have too much resentment over what has been said and done to me at this point.
- everdev 8y ago
  I'm sorry to hear about the pain you've received in your marriage. Sometimes seeing counselors individually can help if the dynamic between you is too toxic. That way you can unload and process your feelings without causing further pain to each other. Then, once you've reconnected with yourself you can come together in a more constructive and intentional way to repair if you choose to do so. It's also common for parents to hide their fighting from their kids. Unfortunately, this also hides how they resolve conflict so we have to learn that later in life. Relationships are not about fixing the perfect match that is in alignment with your wants and desires, but about finding someone who will help you grow. It sounds like your partner has introduced you to conflict and conflict resolution which sucks in the moment, but if you can make it through and grow from it will help with your relationship or any future ones you pursue.
- ScottBurson 8y ago
  No marriage is perfect. Every couple fights sometimes, if both people are being real with each other, and if they're not, that's a huge problem in itself. (I think everdev is probably right: they didn't let you see them fighting.) The goal is not to never fight; it's to always fight fair. Sounds like your parents didn't show you how to do that — which is too bad, if they themselves knew, because most people don't. In any case, you now need to learn how, and any relationship you're in is a great place to start. If you reach a point where you know you're fighting fair but your spouse isn't, and doesn't seem to care that they're not, that's a reasonable time to give up on the relationship. Reread everdev's reply too — it's really good. Good luck!
alanfranzoni 8y ago
Interesting, in the fact that small acts could define a relationship. Less interesting from a global perspective of a relationship. I don't think (but I may be wrong) that a lot of people take fights at random (the med school example looks very dumb, to me) unless there's a underlying cause. And, learning to give _and accept_ criticism is as important as well. It's very easy IMHO to be positive when everything is fine, the sun shining, and you've got plenty of free time for yourself and your partner. What if life/job/kids make you feel "squeezed" and you can't totally and always fulfill somebody's emotional requirements? The art of compromise, alas, is the hard part of a relationship.
stretchwithme 8y ago
Yeah. People like that.
biql 8y ago
Or maybe kindness and generosity is the result of other things going well. If both are completely satisfied with each other and their personalities match, it's plausible that they will treat each other well.
oooooof 8y ago
For relationship success you must both also be effective at communicating with each other, able to talk openly. You also need to be able to discuss challenges and issues without eroding the value of the relationship.
k__ 8y ago
I had multiple relationships over the course of my 15 year dating career. Most of them only working for maximum of 2 years. I even moved in with one of them, but it didn't help much. Only when I found out what I wanted, things got better. The problem had something to do with missing kindness and generosity, but those were just the symptoms. The reasons were unmet expectations. The problem with expectations is, you just have them and don't necessarily know how to articulate them. Often you don't even know that you have them. So you are in a relationship, don't say what you really want, because you don't know it, or feel shame for it etc., and then you start to lose interest in your partner because they don't give you the right thing. Then you become unkind and your partner leaves you.
himom 8y ago
But first one must be able to connect with people... since I can’t do that, the rest is considered behaviors of an pointless, unrespectable, unworthy fool, while everyone else is mostly “take, take, take.”
ta1234567890 8y ago
My wife and I have a company together and work from home, so we pretty much see each other all day every day. When we first started working together we got in a lot of fights and put our relationship at risk. We realized that we had to figure it out or our relationship would break. Around the same time this happened, we were incredibly lucky to have attended a free workshop called Founder's Communication (done free by innerspace.org highly highly recommended for anyone in a long term committed relationship, not just founders) which opened up our eyes and helped us improve our communication to the point where we realized that almost without exception, our arguments and fights were triggered by things that had nothing to do with what we were arguing about. We discovered that "99%" of the time, the cause of our fights were that we were hungry, sleepy, in pain, or worse, a combination of any of those. Then we first started getting in the habit of trying to pause fights as early as possible and ask each other/ourselves if we were hungry, sleepy or in pain, then if either of us was, we would try to address the issue first (get some rest, food or comfort). Then we realized, why not prevent these things altogether? We could easily plan to avoid hunger and sleepiness, pain is harder but also a lot more unusual. Now we are so aware of this stuff that we hardly ever fight, and whenever we end up saying something bad/mean in the heat of the moment, we are able to understand that we didn't really mean it, forgive ourselves quickly and move on. As a side note, this is really just an application of the realization researchers have made, that verbal communication only conveys a small fraction of what we are trying to say, the rest is all body language. Watch out about thinking too much of the meaning of what anyone has said to you. Highly recommend reading the book The Charisma Myth by Olivia Fox.
- JustSomeNobody 8y ago
  This is very good advice and it also goes for children as well. If you want to prevent most of the fussiness of kids, make sure they stay hydrated and give them a healthy snack every couple of hours. If they are of napping age, be consistent with naps. It's not a cure-all for tantrums, but it certainly minimizes them.
  - ta1234567890 8y ago
    This. Just had my first kid. It helps immensely to anticipate when they'll be cranky and be ready to address it right away (by feeding them, soothing them or helping them fall asleep). You also need to be aware of how that overlaps with you being hungry/sleepy and try to address it in the best way. It's so easy to get angry at your kids just because they got cranky at an inconvenient time for you. At the same time, at this stage of their lives, I believe kids should experience some stress/frustration/pain to know how it feels and learn how to deal with it. Very important life skill.
alpineidyll3 8y ago
This article is so obvious but so right. Worth a read if you're trying to keep something, just to refocus you on what's real.
TangoTrotFox 8y ago
Why did they pick 6 years as the measurement for a successful relationship? Given a perfectly justified skepticism of social science studies, that number seems very much like sample retrofitting. Beyond that, even their hypothesis is absurd as it implies that the way a person interacts is a causal factor for a relationship, yet the way people interact with their partner is quite obviously caused by how they get along! It's like saying people who enjoy going to the beach are often tanned, and implying that if you're not tanned that is a causal relationship with you not going to the beach. It's really bizarre logic.
jadence 8y ago
This article relies heavily on findings by the Gottman Institute however the Gottman Institute's findings are suspect because they built their prediction models after the results are known and they never verified that their models hold up w/ additional data. In machine learning parlance, it's equivalent to deriving a formula using training data and not checking if the formula is accurate w/ a validation data. I doubt many (anyone?) here would trust an autonomous car built w/ only training data and never tested w/ validation data. Similarly, I don't believe/trust the Gottman's prediction rate (94%) for a second. More info: http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2010/03/can_you_really_predict_the_success_of_a_marriage_in_15_minutes.html http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2010/03/can_y... (2010)

276 points by johnny313 8y ago

archi42 8y ago

Hmm, 2014. But a good read.

wslh 8y ago
Not sure about what is wrong about an article from 2014. It is not talking about the last JavaScript implementation or AI achievement.
- 5thbootloader 8y ago
  Perhaps the comment was referencing a myriad of different factors which might affect relationships now that didn't exist in 2014? According to the World Happiness Report 2017, there is a trend which suggests Americans are growing less happy each year. So maybe in the interim of 4 years the world has become drastically less optimistic about intimate relationships... Or not.
  - wslh 8y ago
    If we are leveling our critical analysis and skepticism to the extreme I would say that all these studies are never settled and the World Happiness Report does not invalidate findings of the other study. > there is a trend which suggests Americans are growing less happy each year. So maybe in the interim of 4 years the world. So are you saying that Amricans = World? Please (for example) go to Spain and look about how happiness works differently than America.
    - 5thbootloader 8y ago
      Ah, I was not intending for my response to be taken literally, sorry. I was merely trying to show how ridiculous his claim was since there was no rational argument for it. I'll have to work on my presentation skills next time.
- archi42 8y ago
  Just that it wasn't tagged as being "old" when I commented. As I said, it's a good read. Why would I say that if I deemed it out of date?

ttul 8y ago

I can vouch for the futility of remaining in a “disaster” relationship for far too long...

_emacsomancer_ 8y ago

Good non-romantic relationships also often come down to kindness & generosity.

stevenwoo 8y ago
I was reminded of the hackernews ethos to assume the best of commenters when engaging them as per the active constructive corner of the relationship action/reaction thing in the article.
Pica_soO 8y ago
All relationships boil down to two life-forms trying to pull one another over the counter to archive goals that are detrimental to the short term interests of both individuals. For that to work, both sides got to have mental bugs, exploits and hooks. Have fun on your next date, finding out what emotional responses are part of the long term bonding, why they are important and how they act directly/ indirectly against your interests.
- DougN7 8y ago
  I would postulate that is the definition if immaturity, or at least short-sightedness. Sooner or later people start looking for ways that both can win, in the short term and in the long term. Sometimes that means giving up something you want now for something you want even more later. It takes time to see that though, which is why it’s rare to see in very young people. (I don’t know you personally, so this isn’t directed at you, just a counter argument).

telltruth 8y ago

Ok... I'll bite. This feel good article doesn't do justice to relationship issues at all. A lot of relationship issues simply arise from compromises that have been done in past. May be woman is desperate in finding husband and man is realizing he is getting out of options. Both gets married despite knowing incompatibilities here and there. People tell them "opposite attracts". Ummm... no. There is of course honeymoon period and then eventually kids enter in life. Suddenly woman doesn't feel need to make man happy as much and man is realizing his role being transformed to essentially a bank account. Things start falling apart and there is no right thing to fix this. Sure, kindness/generosity etc helps on both sides but the fundamental root cause is folks ending up together due to short term biological reproduction needs that then invariably gets extended as kids enter in their lives. It's not a coincidence that lot of marriages fall apart when kids are between 8 to 12 years old. That's the time kids are becoming independent, women gets more time to do job and run household according to her desires all the while man starts to understand that there is very little left for them to be in. Some better educated couples would hold off until kids go to college and there is spike in divorce rate when kids graduate from high school.

zxcvvcxz 8y ago
Somewhat raw but at the end of the day I'd say mostly true. I'll add my own conjecture: the root problem is that this hypothetical couple you describe (who is more common than many would like to admit) are both settling. They are settling because they didn't take marriage seriously earlier in their lives. They didn't take marriage seriously because society stopped forcing them to do so. And nature also didn't force them to either, thanks to birth control. These aren't individuals at fault here - these are systemic incentives warping previously traditional behavior. So then this couple got into their 30s, which isn't young, as the decades are not created equal. And they realized - oh shit, better actually try figuring out how to have a family, lest we live alone and with limited meaning for the latter 40 years of life. Seriously - what are people thinking that they'll be happy being single into their 40s and beyond? Here's a sad truth: most people will get a decent, but not super meaningful job. There can only be so many entrepreneurs and rockstars. So from ages 35 onwards, you better be set up to have a family and create something that will provide you meaning for Act II of life, because it's quite long.

throwaway713 8y ago

I'll quote Richard White's answer on Quora to the question "What was the worst thing your parents ever did to you?" > Every day from as early as I can remember, they were clearly and obviously in love with each other. Even after 50 years of marriage they were still acting like two teenagers going steady. They always supported each other in everything they did or tried to do. They "had each other's backs" at all times. > I have spent my life trying to find that same kind of relationship - and haven't been able to. > They unknowingly set the bar too high, I guess. Like Richard, my parents had an essentially perfect marriage for 18 years until my mother passed away from cancer. They never fought. Ever. They were truly each other's best friend. I guess as a kid I just assumed that all marriages were like that since I didn't grow up knowing otherwise. My biggest dream in life had always been to have a marriage like theirs. My own marriage just passed the one year mark, and unfortunately it has been a disaster so far. I'm crushed in so many ways, and it's really just taken the spirit out of me. I hope we can fix it (with counseling) but I'm not sure if we can truly ever recover; I have too much resentment over what has been said and done to me at this point.

everdev 8y ago
I'm sorry to hear about the pain you've received in your marriage. Sometimes seeing counselors individually can help if the dynamic between you is too toxic. That way you can unload and process your feelings without causing further pain to each other. Then, once you've reconnected with yourself you can come together in a more constructive and intentional way to repair if you choose to do so. It's also common for parents to hide their fighting from their kids. Unfortunately, this also hides how they resolve conflict so we have to learn that later in life. Relationships are not about fixing the perfect match that is in alignment with your wants and desires, but about finding someone who will help you grow. It sounds like your partner has introduced you to conflict and conflict resolution which sucks in the moment, but if you can make it through and grow from it will help with your relationship or any future ones you pursue.
ScottBurson 8y ago
No marriage is perfect. Every couple fights sometimes, if both people are being real with each other, and if they're not, that's a huge problem in itself. (I think everdev is probably right: they didn't let you see them fighting.) The goal is not to never fight; it's to always fight fair. Sounds like your parents didn't show you how to do that — which is too bad, if they themselves knew, because most people don't. In any case, you now need to learn how, and any relationship you're in is a great place to start. If you reach a point where you know you're fighting fair but your spouse isn't, and doesn't seem to care that they're not, that's a reasonable time to give up on the relationship. Reread everdev's reply too — it's really good. Good luck!

alanfranzoni 8y ago

Interesting, in the fact that small acts could define a relationship. Less interesting from a global perspective of a relationship. I don't think (but I may be wrong) that a lot of people take fights at random (the med school example looks very dumb, to me) unless there's a underlying cause. And, learning to give _and accept_ criticism is as important as well. It's very easy IMHO to be positive when everything is fine, the sun shining, and you've got plenty of free time for yourself and your partner. What if life/job/kids make you feel "squeezed" and you can't totally and always fulfill somebody's emotional requirements? The art of compromise, alas, is the hard part of a relationship.

stretchwithme 8y ago

Yeah. People like that.

biql 8y ago

Or maybe kindness and generosity is the result of other things going well. If both are completely satisfied with each other and their personalities match, it's plausible that they will treat each other well.

oooooof 8y ago

For relationship success you must both also be effective at communicating with each other, able to talk openly. You also need to be able to discuss challenges and issues without eroding the value of the relationship.

k__ 8y ago

I had multiple relationships over the course of my 15 year dating career. Most of them only working for maximum of 2 years. I even moved in with one of them, but it didn't help much. Only when I found out what I wanted, things got better. The problem had something to do with missing kindness and generosity, but those were just the symptoms. The reasons were unmet expectations. The problem with expectations is, you just have them and don't necessarily know how to articulate them. Often you don't even know that you have them. So you are in a relationship, don't say what you really want, because you don't know it, or feel shame for it etc., and then you start to lose interest in your partner because they don't give you the right thing. Then you become unkind and your partner leaves you.

himom 8y ago

But first one must be able to connect with people... since I can’t do that, the rest is considered behaviors of an pointless, unrespectable, unworthy fool, while everyone else is mostly “take, take, take.”

ta1234567890 8y ago

My wife and I have a company together and work from home, so we pretty much see each other all day every day. When we first started working together we got in a lot of fights and put our relationship at risk. We realized that we had to figure it out or our relationship would break. Around the same time this happened, we were incredibly lucky to have attended a free workshop called Founder's Communication (done free by innerspace.org highly highly recommended for anyone in a long term committed relationship, not just founders) which opened up our eyes and helped us improve our communication to the point where we realized that almost without exception, our arguments and fights were triggered by things that had nothing to do with what we were arguing about. We discovered that "99%" of the time, the cause of our fights were that we were hungry, sleepy, in pain, or worse, a combination of any of those. Then we first started getting in the habit of trying to pause fights as early as possible and ask each other/ourselves if we were hungry, sleepy or in pain, then if either of us was, we would try to address the issue first (get some rest, food or comfort). Then we realized, why not prevent these things altogether? We could easily plan to avoid hunger and sleepiness, pain is harder but also a lot more unusual. Now we are so aware of this stuff that we hardly ever fight, and whenever we end up saying something bad/mean in the heat of the moment, we are able to understand that we didn't really mean it, forgive ourselves quickly and move on. As a side note, this is really just an application of the realization researchers have made, that verbal communication only conveys a small fraction of what we are trying to say, the rest is all body language. Watch out about thinking too much of the meaning of what anyone has said to you. Highly recommend reading the book The Charisma Myth by Olivia Fox.

JustSomeNobody 8y ago
This is very good advice and it also goes for children as well. If you want to prevent most of the fussiness of kids, make sure they stay hydrated and give them a healthy snack every couple of hours. If they are of napping age, be consistent with naps. It's not a cure-all for tantrums, but it certainly minimizes them.
- ta1234567890 8y ago
  This. Just had my first kid. It helps immensely to anticipate when they'll be cranky and be ready to address it right away (by feeding them, soothing them or helping them fall asleep). You also need to be aware of how that overlaps with you being hungry/sleepy and try to address it in the best way. It's so easy to get angry at your kids just because they got cranky at an inconvenient time for you. At the same time, at this stage of their lives, I believe kids should experience some stress/frustration/pain to know how it feels and learn how to deal with it. Very important life skill.

alpineidyll3 8y ago

This article is so obvious but so right. Worth a read if you're trying to keep something, just to refocus you on what's real.

TangoTrotFox 8y ago

Why did they pick 6 years as the measurement for a successful relationship? Given a perfectly justified skepticism of social science studies, that number seems very much like sample retrofitting. Beyond that, even their hypothesis is absurd as it implies that the way a person interacts is a causal factor for a relationship, yet the way people interact with their partner is quite obviously caused by how they get along! It's like saying people who enjoy going to the beach are often tanned, and implying that if you're not tanned that is a causal relationship with you not going to the beach. It's really bizarre logic.

jadence 8y ago

This article relies heavily on findings by the Gottman Institute however the Gottman Institute's findings are suspect because they built their prediction models after the results are known and they never verified that their models hold up w/ additional data. In machine learning parlance, it's equivalent to deriving a formula using training data and not checking if the formula is accurate w/ a validation data. I doubt many (anyone?) here would trust an autonomous car built w/ only training data and never tested w/ validation data. Similarly, I don't believe/trust the Gottman's prediction rate (94%) for a second. More info: http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2010/03/can_you_really_predict_the_success_of_a_marriage_in_15_minutes.html http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2010/03/can_y... (2010)