5 ms·

Do people genuinely have modest ambitions, or are they avoiding the mental stress of thinking about how remote their true ambitions are from what's realisticall

by mrob 8y ago

Do people genuinely have modest ambitions, or are they avoiding the mental stress of thinking about how remote their true ambitions are from what's realistically attainable?

coldtea 8y ago
People genuinely have modest ambitions. The "big ambitions" (and specifically, those not of the good kind, like e.g. becoming a doctor and such, but the "private pool", expensive car, lotsa money variety) have been shoehorned into the average American mind through over a century of indoctrination, advertisement, and propaganda. It's all about making people never be content with their material belongings and thinking that the next purchase or achievement unlocked with make them happy. E.g. https://www.amazon.com/Captains-Consciousness-Advertising-Consumer-Anniversary/dp/0465021557/ref=mt_paperback?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid= https://www.amazon.com/Captains-Consciousness-Advertising-Co...
- tntn 8y ago
  > not of the good kind, like e.g. becoming a doctor I would estimate that around 90% of the people I know who want to become a doctor (around 30 people) are motivated solely by the desire to make lotsa money and be able to drive an expensive car. Just saying, I don't think you can easily divide ambitions into "good" and "bad.
  - mantas 8y ago
    I'd say good ambitions are those where you want X for X itself. If you want to be a doctor because you want love helping people - good. If you want to be a doctor just for $$$ - bad. If you want to become a singer because you love singing - good. If you want to be a singer just for $$$ - bad. Old good "follow your passion"?
    - ahartmetz 8y ago
      As long as X is a good thing - a few people want power just so they can hurt others...
      - Rexxar 8y ago
        Not really. For example, a doctor who is here only for money can chose more expansive operation/treatment than necessary in order to win more even if it is not a good choice for the patient.
        alfredallan1 8y ago
        I think you might have nailed one of the more fundamental problems in US healthcare.
      - mantas 8y ago
        Well, seeking power to hurt others still falls in line with X for Y = bad...
    - moneytide 8y ago
      Money is other people's time.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - meko 8y ago
      it's almost like money makes things bad.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >I would estimate that around 90% of the people I know who want to become a doctor (around 30 people) are motivated solely by the desire to make lotsa money and be able to drive an expensive car. There far easier ways to go about getting more money than spend over a decade in studying for it, plus all the hard work that comes afterwards. More people that get into medicine that I know of either are idealistic, like the lifestyle (as portrayed on TV), had parents that were themselves doctors, or do it for the prestige. The money is not the biggest factor.
    - pimmen 8y ago
      It’s not easy going into medicine but it is more reliable than many other paths. In finance you can be very dependent on the market conditions, same in law (without a lot of business activity businesses don’t need to consult lawyers), in research you are also very dependent on the hype around your field to get grants, starting your own successful business is brutal if you don’t find the right opportunities or network of people, engineering is no cake walk of study either (especially adding in the work to stay relevant in the field) and joining a startup for good money is absolutely not a secure employment. There will always be a need of medical personel however and since it requires a license given out by a few institutions you can be sure that your field will not be oversaturated, especially as it’s hard to obtain said license through study. Again, not saying it is easy becoming an MD, but if you are a competent person the path to a secure, good paying job is clearer if you choose med school than engineering, law, graduate or finance.
      - coldtea 8y ago
        >It’s not easy going into medicine but it is more reliable than many other paths. It is, but it also has a much smaller earnings cap than other professions. So "for the money" here means "for decent enough money but nothing to write home about".
        pimmen 8y ago
        I wouldn’t say that either, there are bio-tech startups you can join (only if you fail there’s a high paying job at the nearest hospital waiting for you) or you can climb within drug companies if you have the correct specialization to become an executive. I would say that’s analogous to becoming partner in the law world or a co-founder of a successful tech startup which is what money focused lawyers and engineers dream of respectively. And depending on the country surgeons in specific fields can make obscene amounts of money. Neuro surgeons have a median salary of almost $600 000 in the US and to earn that much money as an engineer you have probably co-founded a successful startup or become an executive.
- kodablah 8y ago
  Strange to think by nature my modest ambitions are genuine but I have been nurtured out of them by external forces. I suppose thinking this way would preclude one from seeing that ambition is primarily self driven (regardless of size or subjective definitions of "good").
  - coldtea 8y ago
    Well, animals in nature (which evolutionary, we still are, civilization is just a tiny sliver of time) don't really have ambitions.
    - kodablah 8y ago
      Disagree. Like humans, some have high ambitions and some don't. This is why there are leaders.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  There was a comment here about someone who grew up in rural Africa and didn't have shoes, plumbing, etc. (the context was about chores being an indicator of future drive in children). He tellingly said he didn't feel underprivileged in his village as they were all in the same position; but IIRC when he moved to town his, and his siblings, expectations for basic necessities increased dramatically as they saw what others had. (I'm not sure he framed it like that. I may have erred).
  - mmsimanga 8y ago
    That was probably me :-). You got the essence of my post correct. I was observing that human's wants, desires, aspirations seem to grow exponentially and as soon as you get what you wanted you want more. Yet back in the village my relatives have less, they want less and yet are less stressed than me the city dweller with more than them.
    - johnsonjo 8y ago
      I definitely agree with this sentiment. I lived in the Philippines for over a year and I was expecting the people to have the kind of sadness I would see in the commercials they sometimes show in the US for charities and such. In my first area, in the Phillipines, out in the rural boondocks I saw a lot of poverty, but I also saw a surprisingly large amount of happiness and a deep community atmosphere. The people were so kind and thoughtful. I didn’t ask them about their aspirations all that often, but they often seemed content with their life as it was. Every once in a while you would get someone who had higher ambitions e.g. those who wanted to move out into the city. Seeing their contentment and the time I spent there helped me realize that happiness doesn’t need to come from material things and having more than everyone else. I feel American culture has often tried to teach me otherwise. Sad.
    - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
      Yes it was! My short term memory isn't always reliable but glad if I got the gist right -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17373062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17373062 was your comment I was referencing for those following along at home.
dalbasal 8y ago
We tend to think of desires, ambitions, ideals... in idealistic terms. That is, as if they are concrete and a relatively stable part of a person's identity, the product of rational or religious contemplation. I don't this is how our psyche works. I think our psyche works in more practical ways, relativity is what's important. We feel rich or poor relative to yesterday, or our parents, or neighbours. We feel satisfied with our IQ, sex life, life expectancy or health and such in a similar, relative way. I think what these results speak to is where the default goal flag sits, not how motivated, how active or how "genuinely" ambitious were are. We want 10%-50% more money, intelligence, sex, friends and career successes. We can express this as 10 percent more or 10 rabbits more. The specific quantification doesn't matter.
everdev 8y ago
People consciously or subconsciously shed their desires as they become more unrealistic. If you ask a kid about their ideal life, most can rattle off a long list of desires. As we get older, I think we find happiness where we can so our ideal life looks more like what we know because we've been conditioned to think other forms of happiness are no longer possible or that we wouldn't like them.
lumberjack 8y ago
People have modest ambitions and most often, if you are highly ambitious, this is frowned upon. American optimism is the exception.
tech6 8y ago
One show , I don't recall the name,asked people answer some question like what is distance between NY to LA. They could choose any range as the answer and the right answer had to fall in that range.So to win people just had to select huge range like 0 to 1 million miles and be sure they got the answer right .However people would mostly select a narrow range that they felt was the right answer and got it wrong frequently. I think it is some desire not to sound stupid even though there is a incentive to select a ridiculous range.I think this desire not to sound stupid could be at play here as well so people choose things that to them seems reasonable even when asked about their ideal life.
kodablah 8y ago
I'd guess some of both. In my experience, the ability to realize your fullest ambitions (or not) in a society is not as related as it seems to people's innate desire to (or not). One's drive may be limited by external factors and their answers may reflect that, but the same humans in different environments might answer differently. Among groups of humans there are those that find contentment at all ranges of the spectrum, it's just the spectrum that changes.

by mrob 8y ago

Do people genuinely have modest ambitions, or are they avoiding the mental stress of thinking about how remote their true ambitions are from what's realistically attainable?

coldtea 8y ago

People genuinely have modest ambitions. The "big ambitions" (and specifically, those not of the good kind, like e.g. becoming a doctor and such, but the "private pool", expensive car, lotsa money variety) have been shoehorned into the average American mind through over a century of indoctrination, advertisement, and propaganda. It's all about making people never be content with their material belongings and thinking that the next purchase or achievement unlocked with make them happy. E.g. https://www.amazon.com/Captains-Consciousness-Advertising-Consumer-Anniversary/dp/0465021557/ref=mt_paperback?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid= https://www.amazon.com/Captains-Consciousness-Advertising-Co...

tntn 8y ago
> not of the good kind, like e.g. becoming a doctor I would estimate that around 90% of the people I know who want to become a doctor (around 30 people) are motivated solely by the desire to make lotsa money and be able to drive an expensive car. Just saying, I don't think you can easily divide ambitions into "good" and "bad.
- mantas 8y ago
  I'd say good ambitions are those where you want X for X itself. If you want to be a doctor because you want love helping people - good. If you want to be a doctor just for $$$ - bad. If you want to become a singer because you love singing - good. If you want to be a singer just for $$$ - bad. Old good "follow your passion"?
  - ahartmetz 8y ago
    As long as X is a good thing - a few people want power just so they can hurt others...
    - Rexxar 8y ago
      Not really. For example, a doctor who is here only for money can chose more expansive operation/treatment than necessary in order to win more even if it is not a good choice for the patient.
      - alfredallan1 8y ago
        I think you might have nailed one of the more fundamental problems in US healthcare.
    - mantas 8y ago
      Well, seeking power to hurt others still falls in line with X for Y = bad...
  - moneytide 8y ago
    Money is other people's time.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - meko 8y ago
    it's almost like money makes things bad.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >I would estimate that around 90% of the people I know who want to become a doctor (around 30 people) are motivated solely by the desire to make lotsa money and be able to drive an expensive car. There far easier ways to go about getting more money than spend over a decade in studying for it, plus all the hard work that comes afterwards. More people that get into medicine that I know of either are idealistic, like the lifestyle (as portrayed on TV), had parents that were themselves doctors, or do it for the prestige. The money is not the biggest factor.
  - pimmen 8y ago
    It’s not easy going into medicine but it is more reliable than many other paths. In finance you can be very dependent on the market conditions, same in law (without a lot of business activity businesses don’t need to consult lawyers), in research you are also very dependent on the hype around your field to get grants, starting your own successful business is brutal if you don’t find the right opportunities or network of people, engineering is no cake walk of study either (especially adding in the work to stay relevant in the field) and joining a startup for good money is absolutely not a secure employment. There will always be a need of medical personel however and since it requires a license given out by a few institutions you can be sure that your field will not be oversaturated, especially as it’s hard to obtain said license through study. Again, not saying it is easy becoming an MD, but if you are a competent person the path to a secure, good paying job is clearer if you choose med school than engineering, law, graduate or finance.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      >It’s not easy going into medicine but it is more reliable than many other paths. It is, but it also has a much smaller earnings cap than other professions. So "for the money" here means "for decent enough money but nothing to write home about".
      - pimmen 8y ago
        I wouldn’t say that either, there are bio-tech startups you can join (only if you fail there’s a high paying job at the nearest hospital waiting for you) or you can climb within drug companies if you have the correct specialization to become an executive. I would say that’s analogous to becoming partner in the law world or a co-founder of a successful tech startup which is what money focused lawyers and engineers dream of respectively. And depending on the country surgeons in specific fields can make obscene amounts of money. Neuro surgeons have a median salary of almost $600 000 in the US and to earn that much money as an engineer you have probably co-founded a successful startup or become an executive.
kodablah 8y ago
Strange to think by nature my modest ambitions are genuine but I have been nurtured out of them by external forces. I suppose thinking this way would preclude one from seeing that ambition is primarily self driven (regardless of size or subjective definitions of "good").
- coldtea 8y ago
  Well, animals in nature (which evolutionary, we still are, civilization is just a tiny sliver of time) don't really have ambitions.
  - kodablah 8y ago
    Disagree. Like humans, some have high ambitions and some don't. This is why there are leaders.
pbhjpbhj 8y ago
There was a comment here about someone who grew up in rural Africa and didn't have shoes, plumbing, etc. (the context was about chores being an indicator of future drive in children). He tellingly said he didn't feel underprivileged in his village as they were all in the same position; but IIRC when he moved to town his, and his siblings, expectations for basic necessities increased dramatically as they saw what others had. (I'm not sure he framed it like that. I may have erred).
- mmsimanga 8y ago
  That was probably me :-). You got the essence of my post correct. I was observing that human's wants, desires, aspirations seem to grow exponentially and as soon as you get what you wanted you want more. Yet back in the village my relatives have less, they want less and yet are less stressed than me the city dweller with more than them.
  - johnsonjo 8y ago
    I definitely agree with this sentiment. I lived in the Philippines for over a year and I was expecting the people to have the kind of sadness I would see in the commercials they sometimes show in the US for charities and such. In my first area, in the Phillipines, out in the rural boondocks I saw a lot of poverty, but I also saw a surprisingly large amount of happiness and a deep community atmosphere. The people were so kind and thoughtful. I didn’t ask them about their aspirations all that often, but they often seemed content with their life as it was. Every once in a while you would get someone who had higher ambitions e.g. those who wanted to move out into the city. Seeing their contentment and the time I spent there helped me realize that happiness doesn’t need to come from material things and having more than everyone else. I feel American culture has often tried to teach me otherwise. Sad.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    Yes it was! My short term memory isn't always reliable but glad if I got the gist right -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17373062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17373062 was your comment I was referencing for those following along at home.

dalbasal 8y ago

We tend to think of desires, ambitions, ideals... in idealistic terms. That is, as if they are concrete and a relatively stable part of a person's identity, the product of rational or religious contemplation. I don't this is how our psyche works. I think our psyche works in more practical ways, relativity is what's important. We feel rich or poor relative to yesterday, or our parents, or neighbours. We feel satisfied with our IQ, sex life, life expectancy or health and such in a similar, relative way. I think what these results speak to is where the default goal flag sits, not how motivated, how active or how "genuinely" ambitious were are. We want 10%-50% more money, intelligence, sex, friends and career successes. We can express this as 10 percent more or 10 rabbits more. The specific quantification doesn't matter.

everdev 8y ago

People consciously or subconsciously shed their desires as they become more unrealistic. If you ask a kid about their ideal life, most can rattle off a long list of desires. As we get older, I think we find happiness where we can so our ideal life looks more like what we know because we've been conditioned to think other forms of happiness are no longer possible or that we wouldn't like them.

lumberjack 8y ago

People have modest ambitions and most often, if you are highly ambitious, this is frowned upon. American optimism is the exception.

tech6 8y ago

One show , I don't recall the name,asked people answer some question like what is distance between NY to LA. They could choose any range as the answer and the right answer had to fall in that range.So to win people just had to select huge range like 0 to 1 million miles and be sure they got the answer right .However people would mostly select a narrow range that they felt was the right answer and got it wrong frequently. I think it is some desire not to sound stupid even though there is a incentive to select a ridiculous range.I think this desire not to sound stupid could be at play here as well so people choose things that to them seems reasonable even when asked about their ideal life.

kodablah 8y ago

I'd guess some of both. In my experience, the ability to realize your fullest ambitions (or not) in a society is not as related as it seems to people's innate desire to (or not). One's drive may be limited by external factors and their answers may reflect that, but the same humans in different environments might answer differently. Among groups of humans there are those that find contentment at all ranges of the spectrum, it's just the spectrum that changes.