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The quality at Apple, in both software and hardware, has obviously declined in the past couple years as their supply chain has come under strain. In the past t

by Cacti 8y ago

The quality at Apple, in both software and hardware, has obviously declined in the past couple years as their supply chain has come under strain. In the past three years: my MacBook has had replaced - The screen - The battery - The keyboard My iPad had it's screen replaced, and my iPhone had its battery replaced. None of these are covered under AppleCare, they've all been replaced under individual recall programs. Sure, they have fixed each issue for free, so that's fine, but for what is supposed to be the most dependable consumer hardware on the market, it's rather surprising.

smacktoward 8y ago
Which is weird, since this kind of nuts-and-bolts stuff was supposed to be Tim Cook’s wheelhouse. The whole argument for him becoming CEO was that he might not have Steve Jobs’ product genius, but you could at least be sure the trains would run on time. What happened?
- reaperducer 8y ago
  He started measuring success in dollars saved and stock price increased, instead of customer satisfaction and tech cool. Mr. Jobs famously said that Apple will do it's own thing, and the stock holders can come along for the ride, or get out. Mr. Cook's attitude seems to be more akin to a traditional industrial-era CEO, and not someone trying to further technology, the way his predecessor did.
  - krrrh 8y ago
    I'm not sure you're basing your statements on anything but conjecture, but Cook has repeatedly stated the opposite: https://www.fastcompany.com/40525409/why-apple-is-the-worlds-most-innovative-company https://www.fastcompany.com/40525409/why-apple-is-the-worlds...
- ebrewste 8y ago
  The best train conductor knows best how to get a train somewhere at a specific time. If said conductor wanted to save some money on keyboards at the expense of quality because he thought it was in Apple's best interest, I wouldn't be shocked. Just because you understand Ops doesn't mean that you necessarily want to produce the highest quality at the expense of all other things.
- coatmatter 8y ago
  And Apple has never been closer to being worth $1 trillion in market value.
threeseed 8y ago
You can’t make statements about quality without having statistics. Otherwise it’s just meaningless anecdotes. The problem here is that it is an awful keyboard design that should’ve been discovered before they shipped it. But I wouldn’t consider the MacBooks poor quality.
- Someone1234 8y ago
  > You can’t make statements about quality without having statistics. Otherwise it’s just meaningless anecdotes. But you can: > But I wouldn’t consider the MacBooks poor quality.
- cuchoi 8y ago
  Without reliable available statistics the only thing left for consumers are anecdotes.
  - asafira 8y ago
    Even if they are the only thing left, it doesn't mean you should have a high level of confidence in the conclusions you make based off of them. (In fact, you almost certainly shouldn't...)
- bdcravens 8y ago
  I've had 2 in the past 2 years. (2016 and 2017 models) First one had to have the display replaced. Both had weird display artifacts when I pushed a lot of pixels over display port-to-USB C (2 external monitors) My previous machine, a late 2013 model, lasted 3 years or so without any real issues. Obviously mine is a meaningless anecdote as well, but fitting a common pattern.
  - asafira 8y ago
    What is the common pattern?
    - megaman22 8y ago
reaperducer 8y ago
in the past couple years Anecdotally, the most reliable Macs I've owned have been the new ones. The least reliable Mac I've ever had was a 17" PowerBook. I got more than my money's worth out of AppleCare with that one. Ordinarily, I'd go off about cheap Chinese build quality, but the Chinese will build to any spec and quality you are willing to pay for. Also, according to Coconut Identity, the machine was built in Ireland.
- jacquesm 8y ago
  > Anecdotally, the most reliable Macs I've owned have been the new ones. That's because they're not old enough yet to develop problems. Reliability can only be determined after some time has passed.
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    2016 MacBook Pro 2015 iMac 2014 MacBook 2011 MacBook Air 2009 MacBook 2005 iBook 2005 PowerBook Plus an iLamp I can't properly estimate the year on. All chugging along. Let me know when to expect my MTBF.
    - jacquesm 8y ago
      > Let me know when to expect my MTBF. That's not how it works. MTBF is a statistical thing it doesn't say anything about a particular device. Just like smoking can give you lungcancer and your 95 year old uncle smoking 3 packs a day is not evidence to the contrary.
    - glorkk 8y ago
      What is an iLamp?
      - kimdotcom 8y ago
        I am guessing the G4 iMac w/ articulating display?
      - SparkleBunny 8y ago
asn0 8y ago
My 2012 MBPr had every part replaced at least once, and a few (screen, keyboard and top of main body) replaced twice, fortunately all during the 3-year AppleCare. A consistent problem in my 2010, 2012 and 2017 MBP's is reliable (i.e. not crashing) switching between the discrete and integrated GPU's. It was the death of the '10 after 2 logic boards, caused 1 logic board replacement on '12, and now on my '17 I still see regular (every couple weeks) spiral-into-non-responsiveness and core dumps exactly when those switches happen. I wish MacOS could still force to integrated GPU, I'd rather have slow graphics than give up battery life.
- toyg 8y ago
  I didn't have this problem on the 2012 model but i definitely do now on the 2016 one.
- kalleboo 8y ago
  > 2012 MBPr had every part replaced at least once Same here. First the display ghosting issue, then a couple logic board swaps for GPU issues. Then the I/O board for USB issues. The top case for a trackpad problem, and then when I swapped the battery they had to replace the bottom case as well. By the end I think it was all new parts aside from the SSD. > I wish MacOS could still force to integrated GPU I use the free gfxCardStatus app to accomplish this
asafira 8y ago
To me, this speaks to the incredible layers of protection Apple has in making sure their hardware consumers have as good of an experience as possible, even when they have unexpected issues. I really think some people would choose Apple solely because Apple would do these repairs for free, in a way that is the least amount of hassle to the consumer. (i.e, you can have a real conversation with a real person.) Otherwise, do people generally think that other computer manufacturers have't had issues, or that Apple is purposefully trying to have a lower quality product? Are people away of the amount of reliability testing that Apple does in house? It's easy to point an ignorant finger at them, but we're better than that. Where's the data? If anything, the closest thing we have to data right now is what they say on their website: a small number of laptops have a malfunctioning keyboard. Is it even legal for them to say that if it really were most of them?
- nkkollaw 8y ago
  I switched to Linux on Lenovo because of the problems I've had from the latest MBP. You might expect problems from a 500-euros laptop, but not that your keyboard will stop functioning correctly after 2 months on a 1799-eur laptop. Also, I brought my laptop at the Apple store thrice, and it broke again every single time. Last time, the logic board died, along with the SSD that is soldered to it and all data on it. Repairs might be free, but who pays for the lost time and inconvenience of not having a computer? How much should one spend so that a laptop keeps typing after a few weeks? My MBP lasted 5 months. Then I sold it for 1000EUR and sweared I'd never give Apple another dime. Ironically, a 300-eur laptop with a regular keyboard that I was using as a substitute has been working great for years.
  - asafira 8y ago
    Sorry you had the bad experience, but do you think this is the average experience someone has with Apple products? I also agree that you have to put in a decent effort to get things fixed, but you have to compare Apple to what the experience is like with other companies. I've definitely had situations that were very difficult to deal with over the phone, and situations where I had to send my laptop in for weeks in order for it to get fixed. What is the current standard for non-Apple computers, as far as getting things repaired? (FWIW, I am also considering linux on lenovo)
IBM 8y ago
The newest Macbooks are more reliable than older models according to data Apple Insider got from Apple stores [1]. [1] https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/04/30/2016-macbook-pro-butterfly-keyboards-failing-twice-as-frequently-as-older-models https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/04/30/2016-macbook-pro-...
driverdan 8y ago
Apple's hardware quality has been iffy for a very long time. The difference is that they tend to willingly replace parts that are known to fail.
- krrrh 8y ago
  This is akin to how representative democracy is a bad form of government, but better than all the others that have been tried. Consumer reports has consistently noted that Apple laptops require the least frequency of service compared to any other brand. https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/laptops/LaptopReliability https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/laptops/LaptopReliabilit...
brandonmenc 8y ago
You never owned a G3 iBook or the original polycarbonite MacBook. The previous generation aluminum MacBook Pro and AirBook tanks are the anomaly - not the other way around.
coatmatter 8y ago
> Sure, they have fixed each issue for free, so that's fine And how much time did it cost? I suppose like me, you have a backup computer to go to?

by Cacti 8y ago

smacktoward 8y ago

Which is weird, since this kind of nuts-and-bolts stuff was supposed to be Tim Cook’s wheelhouse. The whole argument for him becoming CEO was that he might not have Steve Jobs’ product genius, but you could at least be sure the trains would run on time. What happened?

reaperducer 8y ago
He started measuring success in dollars saved and stock price increased, instead of customer satisfaction and tech cool. Mr. Jobs famously said that Apple will do it's own thing, and the stock holders can come along for the ride, or get out. Mr. Cook's attitude seems to be more akin to a traditional industrial-era CEO, and not someone trying to further technology, the way his predecessor did.
- krrrh 8y ago
  I'm not sure you're basing your statements on anything but conjecture, but Cook has repeatedly stated the opposite: https://www.fastcompany.com/40525409/why-apple-is-the-worlds-most-innovative-company https://www.fastcompany.com/40525409/why-apple-is-the-worlds...
ebrewste 8y ago
The best train conductor knows best how to get a train somewhere at a specific time. If said conductor wanted to save some money on keyboards at the expense of quality because he thought it was in Apple's best interest, I wouldn't be shocked. Just because you understand Ops doesn't mean that you necessarily want to produce the highest quality at the expense of all other things.
coatmatter 8y ago
And Apple has never been closer to being worth $1 trillion in market value.

threeseed 8y ago

You can’t make statements about quality without having statistics. Otherwise it’s just meaningless anecdotes. The problem here is that it is an awful keyboard design that should’ve been discovered before they shipped it. But I wouldn’t consider the MacBooks poor quality.

Someone1234 8y ago
> You can’t make statements about quality without having statistics. Otherwise it’s just meaningless anecdotes. But you can: > But I wouldn’t consider the MacBooks poor quality.
cuchoi 8y ago
Without reliable available statistics the only thing left for consumers are anecdotes.
- asafira 8y ago
  Even if they are the only thing left, it doesn't mean you should have a high level of confidence in the conclusions you make based off of them. (In fact, you almost certainly shouldn't...)
bdcravens 8y ago
I've had 2 in the past 2 years. (2016 and 2017 models) First one had to have the display replaced. Both had weird display artifacts when I pushed a lot of pixels over display port-to-USB C (2 external monitors) My previous machine, a late 2013 model, lasted 3 years or so without any real issues. Obviously mine is a meaningless anecdote as well, but fitting a common pattern.
- asafira 8y ago
  What is the common pattern?
  - megaman22 8y ago

reaperducer 8y ago

in the past couple years Anecdotally, the most reliable Macs I've owned have been the new ones. The least reliable Mac I've ever had was a 17" PowerBook. I got more than my money's worth out of AppleCare with that one. Ordinarily, I'd go off about cheap Chinese build quality, but the Chinese will build to any spec and quality you are willing to pay for. Also, according to Coconut Identity, the machine was built in Ireland.

jacquesm 8y ago
> Anecdotally, the most reliable Macs I've owned have been the new ones. That's because they're not old enough yet to develop problems. Reliability can only be determined after some time has passed.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  2016 MacBook Pro 2015 iMac 2014 MacBook 2011 MacBook Air 2009 MacBook 2005 iBook 2005 PowerBook Plus an iLamp I can't properly estimate the year on. All chugging along. Let me know when to expect my MTBF.
  - jacquesm 8y ago
    > Let me know when to expect my MTBF. That's not how it works. MTBF is a statistical thing it doesn't say anything about a particular device. Just like smoking can give you lungcancer and your 95 year old uncle smoking 3 packs a day is not evidence to the contrary.
  - glorkk 8y ago
    What is an iLamp?
    - kimdotcom 8y ago
      I am guessing the G4 iMac w/ articulating display?
    - SparkleBunny 8y ago

asn0 8y ago

My 2012 MBPr had every part replaced at least once, and a few (screen, keyboard and top of main body) replaced twice, fortunately all during the 3-year AppleCare. A consistent problem in my 2010, 2012 and 2017 MBP's is reliable (i.e. not crashing) switching between the discrete and integrated GPU's. It was the death of the '10 after 2 logic boards, caused 1 logic board replacement on '12, and now on my '17 I still see regular (every couple weeks) spiral-into-non-responsiveness and core dumps exactly when those switches happen. I wish MacOS could still force to integrated GPU, I'd rather have slow graphics than give up battery life.

toyg 8y ago
I didn't have this problem on the 2012 model but i definitely do now on the 2016 one.
kalleboo 8y ago
> 2012 MBPr had every part replaced at least once Same here. First the display ghosting issue, then a couple logic board swaps for GPU issues. Then the I/O board for USB issues. The top case for a trackpad problem, and then when I swapped the battery they had to replace the bottom case as well. By the end I think it was all new parts aside from the SSD. > I wish MacOS could still force to integrated GPU I use the free gfxCardStatus app to accomplish this

asafira 8y ago

To me, this speaks to the incredible layers of protection Apple has in making sure their hardware consumers have as good of an experience as possible, even when they have unexpected issues. I really think some people would choose Apple solely because Apple would do these repairs for free, in a way that is the least amount of hassle to the consumer. (i.e, you can have a real conversation with a real person.) Otherwise, do people generally think that other computer manufacturers have't had issues, or that Apple is purposefully trying to have a lower quality product? Are people away of the amount of reliability testing that Apple does in house? It's easy to point an ignorant finger at them, but we're better than that. Where's the data? If anything, the closest thing we have to data right now is what they say on their website: a small number of laptops have a malfunctioning keyboard. Is it even legal for them to say that if it really were most of them?

nkkollaw 8y ago
I switched to Linux on Lenovo because of the problems I've had from the latest MBP. You might expect problems from a 500-euros laptop, but not that your keyboard will stop functioning correctly after 2 months on a 1799-eur laptop. Also, I brought my laptop at the Apple store thrice, and it broke again every single time. Last time, the logic board died, along with the SSD that is soldered to it and all data on it. Repairs might be free, but who pays for the lost time and inconvenience of not having a computer? How much should one spend so that a laptop keeps typing after a few weeks? My MBP lasted 5 months. Then I sold it for 1000EUR and sweared I'd never give Apple another dime. Ironically, a 300-eur laptop with a regular keyboard that I was using as a substitute has been working great for years.
- asafira 8y ago
  Sorry you had the bad experience, but do you think this is the average experience someone has with Apple products? I also agree that you have to put in a decent effort to get things fixed, but you have to compare Apple to what the experience is like with other companies. I've definitely had situations that were very difficult to deal with over the phone, and situations where I had to send my laptop in for weeks in order for it to get fixed. What is the current standard for non-Apple computers, as far as getting things repaired? (FWIW, I am also considering linux on lenovo)

IBM 8y ago

The newest Macbooks are more reliable than older models according to data Apple Insider got from Apple stores [1]. [1] https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/04/30/2016-macbook-pro-butterfly-keyboards-failing-twice-as-frequently-as-older-models https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/04/30/2016-macbook-pro-...

driverdan 8y ago

Apple's hardware quality has been iffy for a very long time. The difference is that they tend to willingly replace parts that are known to fail.

krrrh 8y ago
This is akin to how representative democracy is a bad form of government, but better than all the others that have been tried. Consumer reports has consistently noted that Apple laptops require the least frequency of service compared to any other brand. https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/laptops/LaptopReliability https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/laptops/LaptopReliabilit...

brandonmenc 8y ago

You never owned a G3 iBook or the original polycarbonite MacBook. The previous generation aluminum MacBook Pro and AirBook tanks are the anomaly - not the other way around.

coatmatter 8y ago

> Sure, they have fixed each issue for free, so that's fine And how much time did it cost? I suppose like me, you have a backup computer to go to?