4 ms·

> it's one of the few regions with the right climate that is also poor enough to make laborious hand-pollination affordable It's not like I didn't know that t

> it's one of the few regions with the right climate that is also poor enough to make laborious hand-pollination affordable It's not like I didn't know that this is how the world works, but this specific case is even more of a slap in the face. It's kinda fucked up to think that in the local specialty store merely a couple pods of vanilla (a few grams each) go for 6-7 dollars, but these folks live in poverty. But more fucked up is the implication that to keep vanilla prices down we specifically maintain these conditions, because of cheap labor. Oh well, the artificial stuff for me from now on.

ethanwillis 8y ago
So they're better off if you destroy a local industry? Instead you should figure out what part of the supply chain is causing the local farmers to not get paid (or maybe theyre the problem and need to pay their laborers more money.). And then campaign against that or make technology to effectively destroy the middle-men. There's plenty more high value products than Vanilla I assure you where the end-workers are living in poverty.
DiffEq 8y ago
Just because there is cheap labor here does not mean they live in poverty; in fact they do not. The cost and standard of living is much lower so the wage is not as bad as you think. Sure they don't drive BMWs and don't get their coffee at Starbucks or have a $1000 iphone but they are far from living in "poverty"; since the definition of "poverty" is poorly constructed. In any case lets say we accept they live in poverty - the agricultural sales of this product and other such products are all they have to hope for. The main problem is with the years if government/military corruption and strife. If that was rid of the country would be wealthy. By not buying their products you help to worsen the poverty; if you do buy, there is hope that the money will eventually improve things. But if they have no money - things will not be improved and this market will shift elsewhere eventually. http://www.borgenmagazine.com/why-is-madagascar-poor/ http://www.borgenmagazine.com/why-is-madagascar-poor/
- zajd 8y ago
  > if you do buy, there is hope that the money will eventually improve things Not with the current model of economic exploitation pursued by western firms. They will never get the money because the companies operating the plantations simply don't have to give it to them and Madagascar's ability to govern itself is completely compromised by outside money. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for the Nigerian people to receive the fruits of their labor as opposed to Shell, the corporation who's bribing the government to keep conditions as profitable as possible.
- senorjazz 8y ago
  > The cost and standard of living is much lower so the wage is not as bad as you think. Sure they don't drive BMWs and don't get their coffee at Starbucks or have a $1000 iphone but they are far from living in "poverty The standard of living is much lower. They don't have "things" because they cannot afford them. But they do want them. This is because of poverty. Ask them. Would you like a house with hot and cold running water? A gas supply? A bedroom for each of your children? A telly in every room? Be a two car family? Then ask them why they don't have this? They will answer: poverty and life is a struggle.
- tch_ 8y ago
  I'm not sure if you're trying to argue whether or not many Malagasy people live in poverty, but assuming you are: have you been to Madagascar? Much of the island's vanilla is grown in the northeast region of the country, called the SAVA region, named after the towns of Sambava, Andapa, Vohemar, and Anthala. The sole overland connection to the rest of the island is a dirt road that goes through desert and is nearly impassable during the rainy season; during the dry season, it can take 6-8 hours to traverse. Other options are either lengthy boat trips or flights. Many of the Malagasy people live in huts that are either bamboo or corrugated metal, with little or no indoor plumbing and small solar panels for electricity. Over 100 people died last year from an out break of the bubonic plague due to very poor healthcare. If that is not poverty, what is? That said, many of the Malagasy people do seem quite happy despite the living conditions.
  - jopsen 8y ago
Retric 8y ago
Madagascar has 2.1% unemployment and ~4.3% GDP growth rate which means doubling every 17 years though reduced by a 2.7% population growth rate. It's problems are more corruption and political than anything else.
- ehecatl 8y ago
  > It's problems are more corruption and political than anything else. So it's different from any other country how?
  - adventured 8y ago
    If you read the history of Madagascar, you'll find a rolling disaster of civil war, extreme corruption, and barely functioning government systems with few consistently protected human rights. Some of that is finally, maybe, starting to turn in a positive direction with increased stability. Transparency International ranks Madagascar at #155 on their corruption perception index. That's not a slightly bad ranking, that means they barely have a functioning system because it's so riddled with corruption. Their neighbors on the ranking are: Zimbabwe, Cambodia, Haiti, Myanmar, etc. Venezuela for reference is presently #169. So that's one way they're (unfortunately) different. Heritage ranks Madagascar #119 on their economic freedom index. They receive a 32/100 score on property rights, 19/100 on government integrity, 21/100 on judicial. Their summary on rule of law: "Although the legal structure provides protections for private property rights and secured interests in property are recognized if not entirely enforced, the vast majority of farmers do not hold the official rights to their land. A lack of training, resources, and personnel hampers judicial effectiveness, and case backlogs are lengthy. Corruption is pervasive at all levels of government."
- quadrangle 8y ago
  GDP growth as a measure of economic health of a society is a bad rule. Here's a better rule: Completely disregard any claim about economic health, sustainability, well-being etc. if it's based on GDP. GDP is a measure that deserves no respect and the mere use of it has caused a lot of harm to the world.
cryptonector 8y ago
There was no such implication. Besides, we can reasonable expect that if (when!) labor costs go up enough I think we're likely to see automation solutions to the labor intensive portions of growing vanilla. Your buying artificial vanilla instead of real vanulla will NOT help make people in Madagascar less poor! Indeed, it will only help make them poorer (by reducing demand for their labor). If you want to help them, you should consume more real vanilla, as that will result in more work for them, thus increasing their incomes. Yes, we could help them even more by educating them and turning the country into, say, a software developer powerhouse. But that's not easy, and will take time. In the meantime, the only thing you can do to immediately increase their income is to consume more of what they produce.
- sumedh 8y ago
  > you should consume more real vanilla, as that will result in more work for them, thus increasing their incomes. or you can pass laws to bring in temporary migrants from African countries to do the extra work and still keep wages down.

ethanwillis 8y ago

So they're better off if you destroy a local industry? Instead you should figure out what part of the supply chain is causing the local farmers to not get paid (or maybe theyre the problem and need to pay their laborers more money.). And then campaign against that or make technology to effectively destroy the middle-men. There's plenty more high value products than Vanilla I assure you where the end-workers are living in poverty.

DiffEq 8y ago

Just because there is cheap labor here does not mean they live in poverty; in fact they do not. The cost and standard of living is much lower so the wage is not as bad as you think. Sure they don't drive BMWs and don't get their coffee at Starbucks or have a $1000 iphone but they are far from living in "poverty"; since the definition of "poverty" is poorly constructed. In any case lets say we accept they live in poverty - the agricultural sales of this product and other such products are all they have to hope for. The main problem is with the years if government/military corruption and strife. If that was rid of the country would be wealthy. By not buying their products you help to worsen the poverty; if you do buy, there is hope that the money will eventually improve things. But if they have no money - things will not be improved and this market will shift elsewhere eventually. http://www.borgenmagazine.com/why-is-madagascar-poor/ http://www.borgenmagazine.com/why-is-madagascar-poor/

zajd 8y ago
> if you do buy, there is hope that the money will eventually improve things Not with the current model of economic exploitation pursued by western firms. They will never get the money because the companies operating the plantations simply don't have to give it to them and Madagascar's ability to govern itself is completely compromised by outside money. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for the Nigerian people to receive the fruits of their labor as opposed to Shell, the corporation who's bribing the government to keep conditions as profitable as possible.
senorjazz 8y ago
> The cost and standard of living is much lower so the wage is not as bad as you think. Sure they don't drive BMWs and don't get their coffee at Starbucks or have a $1000 iphone but they are far from living in "poverty The standard of living is much lower. They don't have "things" because they cannot afford them. But they do want them. This is because of poverty. Ask them. Would you like a house with hot and cold running water? A gas supply? A bedroom for each of your children? A telly in every room? Be a two car family? Then ask them why they don't have this? They will answer: poverty and life is a struggle.
tch_ 8y ago
I'm not sure if you're trying to argue whether or not many Malagasy people live in poverty, but assuming you are: have you been to Madagascar? Much of the island's vanilla is grown in the northeast region of the country, called the SAVA region, named after the towns of Sambava, Andapa, Vohemar, and Anthala. The sole overland connection to the rest of the island is a dirt road that goes through desert and is nearly impassable during the rainy season; during the dry season, it can take 6-8 hours to traverse. Other options are either lengthy boat trips or flights. Many of the Malagasy people live in huts that are either bamboo or corrugated metal, with little or no indoor plumbing and small solar panels for electricity. Over 100 people died last year from an out break of the bubonic plague due to very poor healthcare. If that is not poverty, what is? That said, many of the Malagasy people do seem quite happy despite the living conditions.
- jopsen 8y ago

Retric 8y ago

Madagascar has 2.1% unemployment and ~4.3% GDP growth rate which means doubling every 17 years though reduced by a 2.7% population growth rate. It's problems are more corruption and political than anything else.

ehecatl 8y ago
> It's problems are more corruption and political than anything else. So it's different from any other country how?
- adventured 8y ago
  If you read the history of Madagascar, you'll find a rolling disaster of civil war, extreme corruption, and barely functioning government systems with few consistently protected human rights. Some of that is finally, maybe, starting to turn in a positive direction with increased stability. Transparency International ranks Madagascar at #155 on their corruption perception index. That's not a slightly bad ranking, that means they barely have a functioning system because it's so riddled with corruption. Their neighbors on the ranking are: Zimbabwe, Cambodia, Haiti, Myanmar, etc. Venezuela for reference is presently #169. So that's one way they're (unfortunately) different. Heritage ranks Madagascar #119 on their economic freedom index. They receive a 32/100 score on property rights, 19/100 on government integrity, 21/100 on judicial. Their summary on rule of law: "Although the legal structure provides protections for private property rights and secured interests in property are recognized if not entirely enforced, the vast majority of farmers do not hold the official rights to their land. A lack of training, resources, and personnel hampers judicial effectiveness, and case backlogs are lengthy. Corruption is pervasive at all levels of government."
quadrangle 8y ago
GDP growth as a measure of economic health of a society is a bad rule. Here's a better rule: Completely disregard any claim about economic health, sustainability, well-being etc. if it's based on GDP. GDP is a measure that deserves no respect and the mere use of it has caused a lot of harm to the world.

cryptonector 8y ago

There was no such implication. Besides, we can reasonable expect that if (when!) labor costs go up enough I think we're likely to see automation solutions to the labor intensive portions of growing vanilla. Your buying artificial vanilla instead of real vanulla will NOT help make people in Madagascar less poor! Indeed, it will only help make them poorer (by reducing demand for their labor). If you want to help them, you should consume more real vanilla, as that will result in more work for them, thus increasing their incomes. Yes, we could help them even more by educating them and turning the country into, say, a software developer powerhouse. But that's not easy, and will take time. In the meantime, the only thing you can do to immediately increase their income is to consume more of what they produce.

sumedh 8y ago
> you should consume more real vanilla, as that will result in more work for them, thus increasing their incomes. or you can pass laws to bring in temporary migrants from African countries to do the extra work and still keep wages down.