4 ms·

I’m less liberal than many, but I’m curious how the conservative movement feels issues like climate change and clean oceans and clean air, or even net neutralit

I’m less liberal than many, but I’m curious how the conservative movement feels issues like climate change and clean oceans and clean air, or even net neutrality ought to be dealt with, if not by govt regulation. Or is the line of thinking that only those rich enough to buy face masks, and have climate controlled mansions with private beaches may enjoy those things.. Maybe this is entirely orthogonal to this thread, so maybe there could be a separate HN thread just for this discussion? I welcome your suggestion and am wholly on board but I really don’t think individually emailing you is the most productive method to have, what is in fact, a wide ranging discussion with multiple participants.

malchow 8y ago
This is getting OT, but I think there is a mimetic and performative nature to any discussion larger than, say, four people that means you can never get serious as a group (or on a web forum). In any event would love to hear from you.
- alfredallan1 8y ago
  Yes, this is both generally relevant, but specifically OT. Hope the mods split it off. There is indeed a performative aspect to a broad discussion, but it offers the advantage of raising broad based issues that just might not occur to an individual in a limited closed session. While HN is not immune to the cons of online communities, I feel a generally civil tone, free of political snark, or heavy biases can be maintained.
kevin_b_er 8y ago
The result of the conservativism and libertarian things you mention are not properly considered. It results in what is known as the Tragedy of the Commons. As personal profit and selfishness takes a greater precedence than the wellbeing of the public, the commons must suffer tragedy.
- alfredallan1 8y ago
  It is indeed true that selfish motives take precedence - in the minds/deliberations of those that stand to profit. But isn’t a govt formed of the elected representatives, who are in office just to represent the interests of the commons?
  - neuromancer2701 8y ago
    I think an argument is that at some point the government becomes an entity of its own e.g. thousands of faceless bureaucrats so they are not fighting for the commons but for their own existence.
rory096 8y ago
>I’m less liberal than many, but I’m curious how the conservative movement feels issues like climate change and clean oceans and clean air Generally, via Pigovian taxes that internalize the externality consistently without creating additional distortions or utilizing arbitrary ad-hoc regulation — ideally in a revenue-neutral way via dividends. See, for example, the Trent Lott-John Breaux group announced this week to push for the Baker-Shultz carbon dividend plan (supported by economists including former CEA chairs Greg Mankiw and Martin Feldstein and Fed chairs Ben Bernanke and Janet Yellen). (It should be noted that the Clean Air Act and the formation of the EPA came under Richard Nixon, of all people.) [0] Americans for Carbon Dividends (new group, political): http://www.afcd.org http://www.afcd.org [1] Climate Leadership Council (old group, academic): https://www.clcouncil.org https://www.clcouncil.org [2] AFCD Article: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/climate/carbon-tax-climate-change.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/climate/carbon-tax-climat... [3] This year's op-ed on AFCD: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/opinion/climate-change-fee-carbon-dioxide.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/opinion/climate-change-fe... [4] Last year's op-ed on CLC (economists): https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/08/opinion/a-conservative-case-for-climate-action.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/08/opinion/a-conservative-ca... [5] Last year's op-ed on CLC (politicians): https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-conservative-answer-to-climate-change-1486512334 https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-conservative-answer-to-climat...
- tfehring 8y ago
  If that approach truly had broad support among conservatives, it likely would have been implemented by now. (I consider myself very liberal and am a strong supporter of such an approach.) But the reality is that a plurality of US conservatives still (as of 2015) believe that the impacts of climate change will never materialize. https://news.gallup.com/poll/182807/conservative-republicans-alone-global-warming-timing.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/182807/conservative-republicans...
  - rory096 8y ago
    Right. That covers how to solve them, not that they should be solved. (But I suspect Bay Area conservatives aren't heavily represented in the climate change denialism group.)
docker_up 8y ago
Republicans today and at least since Bush aren't conservatives. They are plutocrats. Real conservatives abandoned Bush when he increased the debt by hundreds of billions for that illegal and immoral Iraq war that broke the world. Real conservatives believe in smaller government and less government intervention. Republicans politicians these days are anything but that, they are disgusting.
- alfredallan1 8y ago
  So why are they behind Trump?
- bmelton 8y ago
  I started to downvote you on your "No True Scotsman" fallacy, but the more I read, the more I felt that I was just downvoting on biases. Regardless, I don't believe there's room for that kind of negativity on HN toward roughly half the population of America, most of whom are assuredly neither evil nor disgusting.
  - docker_up 8y ago
    I meant the politicians, you're right. I updated it. I stand by my words though that the politicians are disgusting. I feel the same way about Democrat politicans as well, though.

malchow 8y ago

This is getting OT, but I think there is a mimetic and performative nature to any discussion larger than, say, four people that means you can never get serious as a group (or on a web forum). In any event would love to hear from you.

alfredallan1 8y ago
Yes, this is both generally relevant, but specifically OT. Hope the mods split it off. There is indeed a performative aspect to a broad discussion, but it offers the advantage of raising broad based issues that just might not occur to an individual in a limited closed session. While HN is not immune to the cons of online communities, I feel a generally civil tone, free of political snark, or heavy biases can be maintained.

kevin_b_er 8y ago

The result of the conservativism and libertarian things you mention are not properly considered. It results in what is known as the Tragedy of the Commons. As personal profit and selfishness takes a greater precedence than the wellbeing of the public, the commons must suffer tragedy.

alfredallan1 8y ago
It is indeed true that selfish motives take precedence - in the minds/deliberations of those that stand to profit. But isn’t a govt formed of the elected representatives, who are in office just to represent the interests of the commons?
- neuromancer2701 8y ago
  I think an argument is that at some point the government becomes an entity of its own e.g. thousands of faceless bureaucrats so they are not fighting for the commons but for their own existence.

rory096 8y ago

>I’m less liberal than many, but I’m curious how the conservative movement feels issues like climate change and clean oceans and clean air Generally, via Pigovian taxes that internalize the externality consistently without creating additional distortions or utilizing arbitrary ad-hoc regulation — ideally in a revenue-neutral way via dividends. See, for example, the Trent Lott-John Breaux group announced this week to push for the Baker-Shultz carbon dividend plan (supported by economists including former CEA chairs Greg Mankiw and Martin Feldstein and Fed chairs Ben Bernanke and Janet Yellen). (It should be noted that the Clean Air Act and the formation of the EPA came under Richard Nixon, of all people.) [0] Americans for Carbon Dividends (new group, political): http://www.afcd.org http://www.afcd.org [1] Climate Leadership Council (old group, academic): https://www.clcouncil.org https://www.clcouncil.org [2] AFCD Article: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/climate/carbon-tax-climate-change.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/climate/carbon-tax-climat... [3] This year's op-ed on AFCD: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/opinion/climate-change-fee-carbon-dioxide.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/opinion/climate-change-fe... [4] Last year's op-ed on CLC (economists): https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/08/opinion/a-conservative-case-for-climate-action.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/08/opinion/a-conservative-ca... [5] Last year's op-ed on CLC (politicians): https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-conservative-answer-to-climate-change-1486512334 https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-conservative-answer-to-climat...

tfehring 8y ago
If that approach truly had broad support among conservatives, it likely would have been implemented by now. (I consider myself very liberal and am a strong supporter of such an approach.) But the reality is that a plurality of US conservatives still (as of 2015) believe that the impacts of climate change will never materialize. https://news.gallup.com/poll/182807/conservative-republicans-alone-global-warming-timing.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/182807/conservative-republicans...
- rory096 8y ago
  Right. That covers how to solve them, not that they should be solved. (But I suspect Bay Area conservatives aren't heavily represented in the climate change denialism group.)

docker_up 8y ago

Republicans today and at least since Bush aren't conservatives. They are plutocrats. Real conservatives abandoned Bush when he increased the debt by hundreds of billions for that illegal and immoral Iraq war that broke the world. Real conservatives believe in smaller government and less government intervention. Republicans politicians these days are anything but that, they are disgusting.

alfredallan1 8y ago
So why are they behind Trump?
bmelton 8y ago
I started to downvote you on your "No True Scotsman" fallacy, but the more I read, the more I felt that I was just downvoting on biases. Regardless, I don't believe there's room for that kind of negativity on HN toward roughly half the population of America, most of whom are assuredly neither evil nor disgusting.
- docker_up 8y ago
  I meant the politicians, you're right. I updated it. I stand by my words though that the politicians are disgusting. I feel the same way about Democrat politicans as well, though.