12 ms·

Secrets of Resilience: Lessons from adults who overcame difficult childhoods

199 points by fmihaila 8y ago

neonate 8y ago
http://archive.is/wfNSb http://archive.is/wfNSb
sritrisna 8y ago
This link works: http://facebook.com/l.php?u=https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-secrets-of-resilience-1510329202 http://facebook.com/l.php?u=https://www.wsj.com/articles/the...
- exikyut 8y ago
  Interesting, thanks for the referer :)
- Raphmedia 8y ago
  Here is a bookmarlet[1] that will allow you to bypass paywalls. What it does is redirect you to FB outgoing page. Since news networks allow Facebook users to see their entire content, you get access to the article. javascript:window.location.href=decodeURIComponent('https%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2Fl.php%3Fu%3D')+encodeURIComponent(window.location.href); [1] http://bookmarklets.org/what-is-a-bookmarklet/ http://bookmarklets.org/what-is-a-bookmarklet/
  - bhasi 8y ago
    This is very interesting and useful! Thanks.
GeorgeSarkis 8y ago
Lessons from adults who overcame difficult adulthoods: the word is "resilience".
- 0xcde4c3db 8y ago
  While the parent post isn't phrased very helpfully, it raises a valid issue: beyond outcomes and people's retrospective explanations of those outcomes (which are, generally speaking, notoriously unreliable bases for forming useful theory), what are we actually talking about when we talk about "resilience"? What occurs differently such that one person develops this pattern and another doesn't? This essay sort of stumbles around these question, but ultimately falls back on describing resilience in terms that are more mythic than scientific. Admonishments like "own the fighter within" are what I expect from oily self-help hucksters, not credentialed psychologists writing in major publications.
Steve44 8y ago
If you let your circumstances swamp you and you end up being a victim you don't have the fight to change it. If you have that internal spark to drive you out of the situation then that drive always stays with you and you keep on riding it. Many people don't and continue in the quagmire. Drifting along as a peaceful and well brought up youth can often continue so you don't have that drive and determination deep rooted in you.
buro9 8y ago
A topic so close to my heart I can barely engage with it. I credit my resilience to a sense of absolute worthlessness. If you have seen the film Gattaca and the bit at the end how the non-modified person can beat the modified person... it comes down to not being afraid of the consequences, of literally being willing to die trying because what do you have to lose? That you would accept that, to die trying, stems from the worthlessness that one feels totally, and the worthlessness that the world and everyone around you communicates when you are so low. Resilience, taking risks, fighting harder than anyone else, needing to always drive forwards or else fall backwards... for me it has an underlying secret: the profound sense of worthlessness as a human. From never really accepting you are valid and valuable even when you have "made it" by some definition. This is why I've made some decisions the way I have, I have nothing at all to lose... not even the value of life itself. Which loops back to another recent theme on Twitter and HN and elsewhere... those dark thoughts of suicide if once thought, they never ever really leave. NB: I'm fine, just being honest, feeling OK, in a good place... but this is what a hard life creates and such lives aren't lived for the purpose of being a lesson to others, and I'm not sure anyone should learn this lesson.
- s-shellfish 8y ago
  I think it takes a strong mind to overcome that belief framework. That's not to say it didn't have inherent worth for you while you went through whatever you did that made you feel that way, but finding flaw in your own arguments/belief systems is a pretty significant skill set to learn too. Learn to be resilient against yourself. Learn to take risks against yourself. Learn to fight harder against yourself, than anyone will ever fight against you. Maybe you can, maybe you do, but that loop that brings you back to suicidal feelings is neither strength nor weakness.
- phaedrus 8y ago
  This line from Gattaca always hits me so hard (when the genetically engineered brother asks the protagonist how he always won when they competed to swim as far out from shore as possible): "I never saved anything for the swim back."
  - 8y ago
mmsimanga 8y ago
My most upvoted comment on HN was when I made reference to fact that I had grown up in African village. I was totally unaware that this was a something worth sharing but it seemed to pique people's interest. As I didn't know any better at the time, I never felt that I lacked anything. I had two parents, grand parents and many cousins around. We spent the whole time playing, "exploring" and "hunting". Not once did it occur to me that we didn't have running water or flushig toilets and hence I was worse off. We had chores, looking after the livestock and helping out with the harvest. We had at most three pairs of clothing and hardly wore shoes. We moved to town and my siblings were born in town. To this day me and my older brother, the village kids have always been more independent. During the time I was in school my parents didn't glance at my homework. Later on when my younger brother who is 11 years younger than I am was in school my mother had "learnt" that good mothers help their kids with homework. To this day my little brother cannot do anything on his own without help (accept poetic license for the sake of being brief). I read somewhere though, I think one of those decade long Harvard studies that having chores when young was the biggest factor in how successful people became. I presume poor kids have to play a bigger role, hence have more chores in ensuring that household is fed and clothed.
- phakding 8y ago
  My story is not too different. I grew up in a dirt poor Asian village. We didn't have running water and for first few years of my life, not even a toilet. Parents taking active part in kids education was not common. I remember my parents bought be one toy when I was in second or third grade, and that was it. We used to get one pair of new clothes once every year during festivals. That's about it. Nobody ever celebrated birthdays. I don't even think I remembered my own birthday growing up. On top of that my parents fought like cats and dogs almost everyday. The only thing that helped me survive and succeed was my competitive nature and perseverance. I worked hard, and still do, for things I want. I am not trying to brag, but starting in abject poverty and then ending up in a one of the biggest American cities making $200k is surreal.
  - mmsimanga 8y ago
    Thanks for sharing. I enjoyed reading your comment. I am genuinely glad it all worked out for you. I can identify with not celebrating birthdays and the lack of toys. As a result it feels awkward when people wish me happy birthday. I see the term surviorship bias quite a lot on HN and I sometimes feel it applies to me. When debates happen on Africa and poverty I tend not to be as sympathetic. I get impatient and rather want Africans to discuss how we can start building our own electric cars and solar power stations. Which is interesting because most of my cousins are still in the village and running water and healthcare are their biggest concerns. Having ended up in technology and living in a fairly modern city I have to consciously change mindset between understanding the latest features on Postgresql and applying my mind to getting basics such as runnning water to my village. I "made" it because I am stubborn, had parents who believe in education and because I hate being beholden to someone. I am beholden to by boss but hey we can't have everything.
pvaldes 8y ago
An more interesting thing to me is why resilience is so overlooked nowadays. We "design" young people to shatter like a glass when bad things happen.
- s-shellfish 8y ago
  What does glass look like when it shatters?
- afpx 8y ago
  Do you have evidence that things have changed? I suspect that if you took random samples of young people from several generations and followed them throughout life, the rate of success and failure relative to their peers would be the same across generations.
  - pvaldes 8y ago
    Most people can manage frustration correctly. But some outliers, instead... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_th... I wonder how this would look in a chart. http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/charts-and-maps http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/charts-and-maps http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls
    - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
      Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1138/ https://xkcd.com/1138/ Also, there's a lot of terrible ways to manage stress without going postal (or some variant thereof) and there's plenty of things other than stress that can lead people to going postal.
      - pvaldes 8y ago
        Xkcb is always a good distraction, but not. What is interesting is not that there aren't mass murderings in the desert or the sea or that more people are shooted where the bulk of the people lives. This is obvious. The interesting part is that there are a lot of mass murderings in USA and a lot of children and young people killed also. (and those are only the first six months of the year). Was the same trend in 1970 or 1860 after adjusting the diference of population? If not... well, maybe something has changed.
rambossa 8y ago
I credit any of my "success" to the struggles I had as a child. Our world isn't perfect, and some of us experience different & harsher aspects of its flaws. I think the earlier some experience these flaws, the more they learn to adapt and realize truths of human nature. We learn that many things aren't going to be handed to us and to get what we want we will have to work a bit harder, or struggle a bit more (In the military we called this "Embrace the Suck"). We learn that our families aren't the same we see on our favorite TV shows. It hurts & its sad for young children to experience a struggle, but I think they can ultimately strengthen them -- unless the difficulties are so severe, or misguiding, that they lead children down the wrong path of life (i.e. severe psychology disorders, crime). Again though, the world/nature is a tough place, and its nice to want to enforce being easier on and conceal realities from children, but I think there is something of value in experiencing "realness"/struggle -- a simple & less-harsh example is the losing team getting no trophy.
- charlchi 8y ago
  I was deeply depressed and anxiety strikken during my entire adolescence. After dropping out of university at 20 I got diagnosed with ADHD and Bipolar. While sometimes I wish I'd had a normal life with parents that taught we good life lessons, in hindsight I feel like I've learnt even more fundamental lessons and have experienced some "truths" that I would not have experienced otherwise.
ta76567656 8y ago
I too had a difficult childhood and overcame some moderate difficulties. Then I proceeded to waste my adult youth (20s and most of my 30s) in a multi decade pit of depression and withdrawal from the world. So let's not forget survivorship bias.
- vanderZwan 8y ago
  I hope you managed to claw out of that pit. Either way, hang in there!
- rohitb91 8y ago
  I can echo that. Low middle class, alcoholic parent, failed family businesses that I wasted teenage and early 20s in, just rebuilding now. Tragic.
  - throwaway82729 8y ago
    Add me to that list. Became sole breadwinner at 22 for a family that had $2M in debt due to failed business. At one point, I was held hostage at gun point by a debt collector. Deeply scarred by debt to this day. Scared of investing anywhere and just hoarding for a rainy day. No family to speak of except wife and child. Very few friends. No purpose to life other than seeing my child grow up and be successful.
    - toasterlovin 8y ago
      > No purpose to life other than seeing my child grow up and be successful. FWIW, in my opinion (and in the opinion of evolution and biology), raising children is the purpose to life. By having children, we give another human the ability to experience life. And, for most of us, they are the only lasting mark we will leave on existence.
      - krageon 8y ago
        Aside from the philosophical side of your argument, there is of course the biological argument: There are far too many people. I understand that anyone who advocates reproductive moderation will get out-competed by everyone else, but that doesn't mean that we have to accept mentally that this is the purpose of life. I'd argue that seeing this as your one and only purpose makes you akin to a cancer. Your genes exist to consume, but fulfill no real goals.
ENTP 8y ago
When you have nothing to lose, you have everything to gain. Every day brings new opportunities - take each one as they come. Believe that anything is possible, even if improbable. Give a fuck, but not too much.
- tk75x 8y ago
  Can I get that on a t-shirt?
afpx 8y ago
For me, resilience is about having security. As someone who grew up with all of the “poverty, abuse, absent parents, alcoholism, serious illness or some other misfortune” traits, my ability to succeed was directly related to my ability to find a “gang” of others of similar circumstance and trusting them for shared security. It also helped to live in the 80s and 90s when it was easier to “fly under the radar” from external threats like police, government, hostile groups, etc. The pain of early trauma never goes away. But, I would never be able to cope with that pain if I didn’t have the ability to reach out to people I trust for support.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Arete31415 8y ago
I've had both experiences. I had very difficult home circumstances, and I "overcame" them at a challenging boarding school. Then I "couldn't handle" them in a challenging Ivy League environment, where I felt isolated and developed depression. I have a few takeaways from these experiences: 1. The difference for me between "succeeding in spite of" and "failing because of" was in a few areas. One, good help being available if I sought it out. Two, being able to find a few niches - academically or in extra-curriculars -- where I could excel and feel mastery. And three, having involved, concerned adults around who cared -- even if they weren't "yours" (not your family, not teachers in your major -- they're still there and they still care). 2. Other peoples' judgments about whether you are "succeeding" or "failing" are, in fact, part of the problem. That's why I put those terms in quotes. Sometimes leaving a bad situation to take care of yourself is success. Sometimes forcing yourself to look good on paper but ignoring your insides is failure. Who knows what's really going on with other people? Not me. 3. Good health care, especially good mental health care, especially good mental health care that looks at the whole body -- these are extremely important. 4. Focusing on resilience is important, but it's only half the story. The truth is, most kids who experience hardships are affected by them, often quite seriously. It's better that we as a society figure out how to reduce poverty and misery to help most kids, rather than figure out how to help a few more kids be the exception to the rule. We need to get back more to a group mentality, rather than an individualistic rising-from-the-trash-fire mentality.
- obelix_ 8y ago
  Good points and well put. The people/environment around the person going through the trauma makes a big difference to outcomes imho. And usually it "takes a village". Because though most people who care will want to help, they each bring different strengths and weaknesses to the table. It's a magic combo of the different strengths that make a diff. And realising that and raising group consiouness about it I agree is badly needed these days.
- saalweachter 8y ago
  I think it's very easy to forget that the same thing can both create advantages and handicaps. Take being an outsider in a field. Being an outsider in a field can be a huge advantage sometimes. You know things other people in the field don't, you aren't bound by the same prejudices and preconceptions as the insiders, and you'll try things no one else would consider because of your radically different starting point. It can be a huge advantage, setting you apart from the crowd and letting you succeed where others fail. But you'll also make mistakes no one else in the field does, suffer from and for gross misunderstandings of the simplest things everyone else takes for granted (and never be corrected of them, because no one could even conceive you would not know such a basic thing), and waste huge amount of times and money and effort going down dead-end rabbit holes everyone else would discard out of hand. At the end of the day, most outsiders in a field will fail - hard and fast - because of the handicaps, but every once in a while an outsider will come along and revolutionize a field, because they are an outsider. (Or at least, that is the cultural myth ;-)
tomcam 8y ago
I had a somewhat difficult childhood and by about 12 was plotting a way to get the fuck out of my neighborhood. Self taught programmer/business guy who did well. Wife is far smarter and better educated but not interested in making money. She came from a good family and reckons my drive came from the background.
bvc35 8y ago
This article is disgusting. Really, what a load of harmful garbage. At risk of overreacting or ignoring the experiences of other people who have experienced hardships such as abuse, mental illness, and others, I want to say that the authors of this article fundamentally misunderstand what they are talking about. I was severely physically and emotionally abused throughout my childhood and have suffered bipolar 2 disorder my whole life. I am only in my early twenties, but I might be lucky enough to be considered one of those who became "successful" after experiencing such hardships as the article fetishizes: I am attending a good college, earning a good degree, developing experience in a high-demand field, and well on my way to becoming materially successful. By all measures, I am doing very well compared to my peers. In this, I think I am in the minority of people who have gone through similar experiences. I think the majority of people who have experienced these things end up either addicted to drugs, developing alcoholism, living with severe depression, or committing suicide or struggling with self-harm. I don't think there is any difference in the personality or resilience of these people and myself which led down paths different than mine. I think it's just luck. I don't think I am a winner. This kind of trauma, especially trauma in your formative years, changes you whether you want it to or not. In order to survive, I learned very specific behaviors as a child, such as deescalation and avoidance of conflict, lying effectively about what I've done and how I feel, telling people what they want to hear, and pushing down and ignoring my feelings. I think everyone who goes through experiences like this learns skills that help them in the short term. If you are very lucky, I think (at best) you can learn not to automatically revert back to these behaviors as an adult most of the time. The people who can learn let go of those behaviors well enough might be the lucky ones, but I think they are rare. Don't get me wrong here: I don't think my fate is sealed. I know how to work on unlearning deceptive and destructive behaviors. I always do my best to work with what I have (I learned to do that as a kid, too), but realistically speaking, I will probably never have (for example) a trusting relationship with a woman or ever trust myself enough to raise children (I'm irrationally worried that I would abuse them and become just like my parents). In a strange way, perhaps some things I learned in order to survive helped me after the abuse, but by and large they were terrible for me. When I was a teenager, I made it my one goal in life not to kill myself. Anything else I accomplished was just extra credit. When I fail in a big way, it's not a big deal for me because I've always had low expectations for my life. I think this might help me instantly rebound from failures and rejection, and end up with opportunities less persistent people might have not gotten. I still force myself to go out there and try my best, because the medication that keeps me functional probably won't keep working forever, so the time I have left is probably significantly limited. Do you think I'm resilient? Do you think I'm one of the winners?
lasekar 8y ago
Why post articles from wsj, it doesn't show the full story.
- fossuser 8y ago
  Click the tiny link below the title on that says 'web' which searches it in google. Then click the link you see in google, this usually lets you read the article (most of the time).
- dang 8y ago
  If there's a workaround, it's ok. Users often post workarounds in the threads, e.g. see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17371963 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17371963. More here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989 https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix&page=0&query=by:dang%20paywall https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
uberduber 8y ago
I’ve spent a bit of my life thinking about this as I come from a bit of an odd circumstance as my parents purposely raised me poor (despite having wealth), didn’t offer much support and made me struggle thinking it would make me very resilient. They very much believe that anything that doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. The biggest problem with childhood adversity is that you are risking your health. My physical health started to fail and I’ve been unable to work for the last few years. I wasn’t born with the strongest constitution, but I do think my upbringing is a large contributor to my health problems. I have friends who grew up in wealthy supportive environments, they are doing absolutely fine but the article is right in that they don’t have the drive or sacrifice to accomplish huge things. They are also by and large, very healthy. On the other hand, with my immigrant friends (many of whom are very successful), even though most are healthy there is a way higher percentage of health problems. Another problem that I have is that I have some poor people impulses and habits, like issues with instant gratification. I did get some benefits in that I am amazingly resourceful and have great problem solving skills. I have the resilience to navigate awful bureaucracies and deal with everyday problems which has been helpful in my attempts to restore my health. I do know a lot of normal people would’ve given up by now.
- Arete31415 8y ago
  The ACES study really backs up what you're talking about. Adults with high ACE scores (Adverse Childhood Experiences) have a much higher rate of multiple diseases than adults with low scores. https://acestoohigh.com/ https://acestoohigh.com/
rednerrus 8y ago
Most cultures have some variant of "shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in three generations". People not socialized to earn it, don't. I grew up dead broke. It's in the very core of my being that I have to succeed. There's no home to swim to.
julianss 8y ago
Grew up in rural Asia on a small farm. Every morning I have to wake up before the sun goes up to fetch water to take care of the animals. The animals we had to sell to get basic necessities such as salt, paper, clothing, gas and oil for light and cooking. We ate meat for at most 10 days a year. Always for a special occasion. The rest of the time was mainly potatoes, cabbage, and carrots. Usually diluted into soup. Coming to America where even poor Americans can enjoy something like a McDonalds burger every single day was unimaginable. Sadly there are still people right now in these rural impoverished areas growing up like I did. You don't realize it when you are poor and haven't experienced anything else. One of the most amazing experiences was flying in a plane for the first time in my life. -From my father who managed to obtain a PHD after fighting through hell created by Communism
zamalek 8y ago
I had a pretty rough childhood. I've always been a bit different (something that I'm now proud of). Not sure if it's spectrum or something else; it doesn't really matter in this context. I was bullied to the point of physiological symptoms - by everyone except my family. This carried on well into high school (I finally broke free when we moved to a different country). My "friends," at least the closest I had to that idea, all abandoned me in the most demeaning way possible. A teacher picked on me, telling me that I would amount to nothing. I decided that I would never treat any person that way. Everything changed. I was still (and still am) meak about what is done to me - but I stood up for outcasts. Spreading my time across cliques took effort initially, but it became natural. People started seeing me as a leader, even the popular crowd. The students around me became intolerant towards bullying and ostracization (through avoidance though, not action). I work hard to make people feel special, but it does come off way too too strong right now :). I'm still broken in many ways, but I am aware of them and work on them. Thanks to the abandonment I experienced, if I feel as though I am being abandoned or betrayed I have an extended panic attack: becoming distrustful and pitiful as it subsides. I'm told I'm attractive, but my mental image is still a 15y/o kid being told "I don't know why anyone would kiss him" by my crush/bully (Stockholm Syndrome much? :)). It all came down to a choice, spread acceptance, and I've often wondered if explaining that choice would amount to anything. That choice was made more than half my life ago and it is so critical to my being that I couldn't be swayed any other way. If I had chosen to isolate myself, that would have worked perfectly for avoiding those situations - it would have become a reliable and trustworthy solution. Even if I wanted to change that, after being convinced to, it would be habit. The only real advice I can offer is to teach your children acceptance. They even have to accept the bullies. They have to understand why bullies do what they do. They can be guided to the choice to not repeat what was done to them. I have no idea how to approach an adult with advice: I strongly believe that an adult needs therapy (CBT or somesuch) after a difficult childhood. You just can't let go of nature that has worked for at least a decade based on advice. I would err against resilience: that is inaction. Becoming the opposite of what tortures you is action.
internetman55 8y ago
I consider most of that stuff to be trash. I think, according to common sense, bad things happening to you is actually bad (for a variety of reasons). Many people who make it out of difficult situations end up with minds and belief systems so twisted that they borderline can't function in human relationships (e.g. a relative who would borderline abuse his children by screaming at them until they were crying and cowering over minor infractions because he believes you choose how you react to external circumstances and his dad pulled a gun on him so this obviously isn't even a big deal and the kid needs to stop overreacting and just try harder)
becga 8y ago
There's a good saying: "Time heals all things...but you might not live that long..."

199 points by fmihaila 8y ago

http://archive.is/wfNSb http://archive.is/wfNSb

This link works: http://facebook.com/l.php?u=https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-secrets-of-resilience-1510329202 http://facebook.com/l.php?u=https://www.wsj.com/articles/the...

exikyut 8y ago
Interesting, thanks for the referer :)
Raphmedia 8y ago
Here is a bookmarlet[1] that will allow you to bypass paywalls. What it does is redirect you to FB outgoing page. Since news networks allow Facebook users to see their entire content, you get access to the article. javascript:window.location.href=decodeURIComponent('https%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2Fl.php%3Fu%3D')+encodeURIComponent(window.location.href); [1] http://bookmarklets.org/what-is-a-bookmarklet/ http://bookmarklets.org/what-is-a-bookmarklet/
- bhasi 8y ago
  This is very interesting and useful! Thanks.

GeorgeSarkis 8y ago

Lessons from adults who overcame difficult adulthoods: the word is "resilience".

0xcde4c3db 8y ago
While the parent post isn't phrased very helpfully, it raises a valid issue: beyond outcomes and people's retrospective explanations of those outcomes (which are, generally speaking, notoriously unreliable bases for forming useful theory), what are we actually talking about when we talk about "resilience"? What occurs differently such that one person develops this pattern and another doesn't? This essay sort of stumbles around these question, but ultimately falls back on describing resilience in terms that are more mythic than scientific. Admonishments like "own the fighter within" are what I expect from oily self-help hucksters, not credentialed psychologists writing in major publications.

Steve44 8y ago

If you let your circumstances swamp you and you end up being a victim you don't have the fight to change it. If you have that internal spark to drive you out of the situation then that drive always stays with you and you keep on riding it. Many people don't and continue in the quagmire. Drifting along as a peaceful and well brought up youth can often continue so you don't have that drive and determination deep rooted in you.

buro9 8y ago

A topic so close to my heart I can barely engage with it. I credit my resilience to a sense of absolute worthlessness. If you have seen the film Gattaca and the bit at the end how the non-modified person can beat the modified person... it comes down to not being afraid of the consequences, of literally being willing to die trying because what do you have to lose? That you would accept that, to die trying, stems from the worthlessness that one feels totally, and the worthlessness that the world and everyone around you communicates when you are so low. Resilience, taking risks, fighting harder than anyone else, needing to always drive forwards or else fall backwards... for me it has an underlying secret: the profound sense of worthlessness as a human. From never really accepting you are valid and valuable even when you have "made it" by some definition. This is why I've made some decisions the way I have, I have nothing at all to lose... not even the value of life itself. Which loops back to another recent theme on Twitter and HN and elsewhere... those dark thoughts of suicide if once thought, they never ever really leave. NB: I'm fine, just being honest, feeling OK, in a good place... but this is what a hard life creates and such lives aren't lived for the purpose of being a lesson to others, and I'm not sure anyone should learn this lesson.

s-shellfish 8y ago
I think it takes a strong mind to overcome that belief framework. That's not to say it didn't have inherent worth for you while you went through whatever you did that made you feel that way, but finding flaw in your own arguments/belief systems is a pretty significant skill set to learn too. Learn to be resilient against yourself. Learn to take risks against yourself. Learn to fight harder against yourself, than anyone will ever fight against you. Maybe you can, maybe you do, but that loop that brings you back to suicidal feelings is neither strength nor weakness.
phaedrus 8y ago
This line from Gattaca always hits me so hard (when the genetically engineered brother asks the protagonist how he always won when they competed to swim as far out from shore as possible): "I never saved anything for the swim back."
- 8y ago

mmsimanga 8y ago

My most upvoted comment on HN was when I made reference to fact that I had grown up in African village. I was totally unaware that this was a something worth sharing but it seemed to pique people's interest. As I didn't know any better at the time, I never felt that I lacked anything. I had two parents, grand parents and many cousins around. We spent the whole time playing, "exploring" and "hunting". Not once did it occur to me that we didn't have running water or flushig toilets and hence I was worse off. We had chores, looking after the livestock and helping out with the harvest. We had at most three pairs of clothing and hardly wore shoes. We moved to town and my siblings were born in town. To this day me and my older brother, the village kids have always been more independent. During the time I was in school my parents didn't glance at my homework. Later on when my younger brother who is 11 years younger than I am was in school my mother had "learnt" that good mothers help their kids with homework. To this day my little brother cannot do anything on his own without help (accept poetic license for the sake of being brief). I read somewhere though, I think one of those decade long Harvard studies that having chores when young was the biggest factor in how successful people became. I presume poor kids have to play a bigger role, hence have more chores in ensuring that household is fed and clothed.

phakding 8y ago
My story is not too different. I grew up in a dirt poor Asian village. We didn't have running water and for first few years of my life, not even a toilet. Parents taking active part in kids education was not common. I remember my parents bought be one toy when I was in second or third grade, and that was it. We used to get one pair of new clothes once every year during festivals. That's about it. Nobody ever celebrated birthdays. I don't even think I remembered my own birthday growing up. On top of that my parents fought like cats and dogs almost everyday. The only thing that helped me survive and succeed was my competitive nature and perseverance. I worked hard, and still do, for things I want. I am not trying to brag, but starting in abject poverty and then ending up in a one of the biggest American cities making $200k is surreal.
- mmsimanga 8y ago
  Thanks for sharing. I enjoyed reading your comment. I am genuinely glad it all worked out for you. I can identify with not celebrating birthdays and the lack of toys. As a result it feels awkward when people wish me happy birthday. I see the term surviorship bias quite a lot on HN and I sometimes feel it applies to me. When debates happen on Africa and poverty I tend not to be as sympathetic. I get impatient and rather want Africans to discuss how we can start building our own electric cars and solar power stations. Which is interesting because most of my cousins are still in the village and running water and healthcare are their biggest concerns. Having ended up in technology and living in a fairly modern city I have to consciously change mindset between understanding the latest features on Postgresql and applying my mind to getting basics such as runnning water to my village. I "made" it because I am stubborn, had parents who believe in education and because I hate being beholden to someone. I am beholden to by boss but hey we can't have everything.

pvaldes 8y ago

An more interesting thing to me is why resilience is so overlooked nowadays. We "design" young people to shatter like a glass when bad things happen.

s-shellfish 8y ago
What does glass look like when it shatters?
afpx 8y ago
Do you have evidence that things have changed? I suspect that if you took random samples of young people from several generations and followed them throughout life, the rate of success and failure relative to their peers would be the same across generations.
- pvaldes 8y ago
  Most people can manage frustration correctly. But some outliers, instead... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_th... I wonder how this would look in a chart. http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/charts-and-maps http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/charts-and-maps http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1138/ https://xkcd.com/1138/ Also, there's a lot of terrible ways to manage stress without going postal (or some variant thereof) and there's plenty of things other than stress that can lead people to going postal.
    - pvaldes 8y ago
      Xkcb is always a good distraction, but not. What is interesting is not that there aren't mass murderings in the desert or the sea or that more people are shooted where the bulk of the people lives. This is obvious. The interesting part is that there are a lot of mass murderings in USA and a lot of children and young people killed also. (and those are only the first six months of the year). Was the same trend in 1970 or 1860 after adjusting the diference of population? If not... well, maybe something has changed.

rambossa 8y ago

I credit any of my "success" to the struggles I had as a child. Our world isn't perfect, and some of us experience different & harsher aspects of its flaws. I think the earlier some experience these flaws, the more they learn to adapt and realize truths of human nature. We learn that many things aren't going to be handed to us and to get what we want we will have to work a bit harder, or struggle a bit more (In the military we called this "Embrace the Suck"). We learn that our families aren't the same we see on our favorite TV shows. It hurts & its sad for young children to experience a struggle, but I think they can ultimately strengthen them -- unless the difficulties are so severe, or misguiding, that they lead children down the wrong path of life (i.e. severe psychology disorders, crime). Again though, the world/nature is a tough place, and its nice to want to enforce being easier on and conceal realities from children, but I think there is something of value in experiencing "realness"/struggle -- a simple & less-harsh example is the losing team getting no trophy.

charlchi 8y ago
I was deeply depressed and anxiety strikken during my entire adolescence. After dropping out of university at 20 I got diagnosed with ADHD and Bipolar. While sometimes I wish I'd had a normal life with parents that taught we good life lessons, in hindsight I feel like I've learnt even more fundamental lessons and have experienced some "truths" that I would not have experienced otherwise.

ta76567656 8y ago

I too had a difficult childhood and overcame some moderate difficulties. Then I proceeded to waste my adult youth (20s and most of my 30s) in a multi decade pit of depression and withdrawal from the world. So let's not forget survivorship bias.

vanderZwan 8y ago
I hope you managed to claw out of that pit. Either way, hang in there!
rohitb91 8y ago
I can echo that. Low middle class, alcoholic parent, failed family businesses that I wasted teenage and early 20s in, just rebuilding now. Tragic.
- throwaway82729 8y ago
  Add me to that list. Became sole breadwinner at 22 for a family that had $2M in debt due to failed business. At one point, I was held hostage at gun point by a debt collector. Deeply scarred by debt to this day. Scared of investing anywhere and just hoarding for a rainy day. No family to speak of except wife and child. Very few friends. No purpose to life other than seeing my child grow up and be successful.
  - toasterlovin 8y ago
    > No purpose to life other than seeing my child grow up and be successful. FWIW, in my opinion (and in the opinion of evolution and biology), raising children is the purpose to life. By having children, we give another human the ability to experience life. And, for most of us, they are the only lasting mark we will leave on existence.
    - krageon 8y ago
      Aside from the philosophical side of your argument, there is of course the biological argument: There are far too many people. I understand that anyone who advocates reproductive moderation will get out-competed by everyone else, but that doesn't mean that we have to accept mentally that this is the purpose of life. I'd argue that seeing this as your one and only purpose makes you akin to a cancer. Your genes exist to consume, but fulfill no real goals.

ENTP 8y ago

When you have nothing to lose, you have everything to gain. Every day brings new opportunities - take each one as they come. Believe that anything is possible, even if improbable. Give a fuck, but not too much.

tk75x 8y ago
Can I get that on a t-shirt?

afpx 8y ago

For me, resilience is about having security. As someone who grew up with all of the “poverty, abuse, absent parents, alcoholism, serious illness or some other misfortune” traits, my ability to succeed was directly related to my ability to find a “gang” of others of similar circumstance and trusting them for shared security. It also helped to live in the 80s and 90s when it was easier to “fly under the radar” from external threats like police, government, hostile groups, etc. The pain of early trauma never goes away. But, I would never be able to cope with that pain if I didn’t have the ability to reach out to people I trust for support.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Arete31415 8y ago

I've had both experiences. I had very difficult home circumstances, and I "overcame" them at a challenging boarding school. Then I "couldn't handle" them in a challenging Ivy League environment, where I felt isolated and developed depression. I have a few takeaways from these experiences: 1. The difference for me between "succeeding in spite of" and "failing because of" was in a few areas. One, good help being available if I sought it out. Two, being able to find a few niches - academically or in extra-curriculars -- where I could excel and feel mastery. And three, having involved, concerned adults around who cared -- even if they weren't "yours" (not your family, not teachers in your major -- they're still there and they still care). 2. Other peoples' judgments about whether you are "succeeding" or "failing" are, in fact, part of the problem. That's why I put those terms in quotes. Sometimes leaving a bad situation to take care of yourself is success. Sometimes forcing yourself to look good on paper but ignoring your insides is failure. Who knows what's really going on with other people? Not me. 3. Good health care, especially good mental health care, especially good mental health care that looks at the whole body -- these are extremely important. 4. Focusing on resilience is important, but it's only half the story. The truth is, most kids who experience hardships are affected by them, often quite seriously. It's better that we as a society figure out how to reduce poverty and misery to help most kids, rather than figure out how to help a few more kids be the exception to the rule. We need to get back more to a group mentality, rather than an individualistic rising-from-the-trash-fire mentality.

obelix_ 8y ago
Good points and well put. The people/environment around the person going through the trauma makes a big difference to outcomes imho. And usually it "takes a village". Because though most people who care will want to help, they each bring different strengths and weaknesses to the table. It's a magic combo of the different strengths that make a diff. And realising that and raising group consiouness about it I agree is badly needed these days.
saalweachter 8y ago
I think it's very easy to forget that the same thing can both create advantages and handicaps. Take being an outsider in a field. Being an outsider in a field can be a huge advantage sometimes. You know things other people in the field don't, you aren't bound by the same prejudices and preconceptions as the insiders, and you'll try things no one else would consider because of your radically different starting point. It can be a huge advantage, setting you apart from the crowd and letting you succeed where others fail. But you'll also make mistakes no one else in the field does, suffer from and for gross misunderstandings of the simplest things everyone else takes for granted (and never be corrected of them, because no one could even conceive you would not know such a basic thing), and waste huge amount of times and money and effort going down dead-end rabbit holes everyone else would discard out of hand. At the end of the day, most outsiders in a field will fail - hard and fast - because of the handicaps, but every once in a while an outsider will come along and revolutionize a field, because they are an outsider. (Or at least, that is the cultural myth ;-)

tomcam 8y ago

I had a somewhat difficult childhood and by about 12 was plotting a way to get the fuck out of my neighborhood. Self taught programmer/business guy who did well. Wife is far smarter and better educated but not interested in making money. She came from a good family and reckons my drive came from the background.

bvc35 8y ago

This article is disgusting. Really, what a load of harmful garbage. At risk of overreacting or ignoring the experiences of other people who have experienced hardships such as abuse, mental illness, and others, I want to say that the authors of this article fundamentally misunderstand what they are talking about. I was severely physically and emotionally abused throughout my childhood and have suffered bipolar 2 disorder my whole life. I am only in my early twenties, but I might be lucky enough to be considered one of those who became "successful" after experiencing such hardships as the article fetishizes: I am attending a good college, earning a good degree, developing experience in a high-demand field, and well on my way to becoming materially successful. By all measures, I am doing very well compared to my peers. In this, I think I am in the minority of people who have gone through similar experiences. I think the majority of people who have experienced these things end up either addicted to drugs, developing alcoholism, living with severe depression, or committing suicide or struggling with self-harm. I don't think there is any difference in the personality or resilience of these people and myself which led down paths different than mine. I think it's just luck. I don't think I am a winner. This kind of trauma, especially trauma in your formative years, changes you whether you want it to or not. In order to survive, I learned very specific behaviors as a child, such as deescalation and avoidance of conflict, lying effectively about what I've done and how I feel, telling people what they want to hear, and pushing down and ignoring my feelings. I think everyone who goes through experiences like this learns skills that help them in the short term. If you are very lucky, I think (at best) you can learn not to automatically revert back to these behaviors as an adult most of the time. The people who can learn let go of those behaviors well enough might be the lucky ones, but I think they are rare. Don't get me wrong here: I don't think my fate is sealed. I know how to work on unlearning deceptive and destructive behaviors. I always do my best to work with what I have (I learned to do that as a kid, too), but realistically speaking, I will probably never have (for example) a trusting relationship with a woman or ever trust myself enough to raise children (I'm irrationally worried that I would abuse them and become just like my parents). In a strange way, perhaps some things I learned in order to survive helped me after the abuse, but by and large they were terrible for me. When I was a teenager, I made it my one goal in life not to kill myself. Anything else I accomplished was just extra credit. When I fail in a big way, it's not a big deal for me because I've always had low expectations for my life. I think this might help me instantly rebound from failures and rejection, and end up with opportunities less persistent people might have not gotten. I still force myself to go out there and try my best, because the medication that keeps me functional probably won't keep working forever, so the time I have left is probably significantly limited. Do you think I'm resilient? Do you think I'm one of the winners?

lasekar 8y ago

Why post articles from wsj, it doesn't show the full story.

fossuser 8y ago
Click the tiny link below the title on that says 'web' which searches it in google. Then click the link you see in google, this usually lets you read the article (most of the time).
dang 8y ago
If there's a workaround, it's ok. Users often post workarounds in the threads, e.g. see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17371963 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17371963. More here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989 https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix&page=0&query=by:dang%20paywall https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

uberduber 8y ago

I’ve spent a bit of my life thinking about this as I come from a bit of an odd circumstance as my parents purposely raised me poor (despite having wealth), didn’t offer much support and made me struggle thinking it would make me very resilient. They very much believe that anything that doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. The biggest problem with childhood adversity is that you are risking your health. My physical health started to fail and I’ve been unable to work for the last few years. I wasn’t born with the strongest constitution, but I do think my upbringing is a large contributor to my health problems. I have friends who grew up in wealthy supportive environments, they are doing absolutely fine but the article is right in that they don’t have the drive or sacrifice to accomplish huge things. They are also by and large, very healthy. On the other hand, with my immigrant friends (many of whom are very successful), even though most are healthy there is a way higher percentage of health problems. Another problem that I have is that I have some poor people impulses and habits, like issues with instant gratification. I did get some benefits in that I am amazingly resourceful and have great problem solving skills. I have the resilience to navigate awful bureaucracies and deal with everyday problems which has been helpful in my attempts to restore my health. I do know a lot of normal people would’ve given up by now.

Arete31415 8y ago
The ACES study really backs up what you're talking about. Adults with high ACE scores (Adverse Childhood Experiences) have a much higher rate of multiple diseases than adults with low scores. https://acestoohigh.com/ https://acestoohigh.com/

rednerrus 8y ago

Most cultures have some variant of "shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in three generations". People not socialized to earn it, don't. I grew up dead broke. It's in the very core of my being that I have to succeed. There's no home to swim to.

julianss 8y ago

Grew up in rural Asia on a small farm. Every morning I have to wake up before the sun goes up to fetch water to take care of the animals. The animals we had to sell to get basic necessities such as salt, paper, clothing, gas and oil for light and cooking. We ate meat for at most 10 days a year. Always for a special occasion. The rest of the time was mainly potatoes, cabbage, and carrots. Usually diluted into soup. Coming to America where even poor Americans can enjoy something like a McDonalds burger every single day was unimaginable. Sadly there are still people right now in these rural impoverished areas growing up like I did. You don't realize it when you are poor and haven't experienced anything else. One of the most amazing experiences was flying in a plane for the first time in my life. -From my father who managed to obtain a PHD after fighting through hell created by Communism

zamalek 8y ago

I had a pretty rough childhood. I've always been a bit different (something that I'm now proud of). Not sure if it's spectrum or something else; it doesn't really matter in this context. I was bullied to the point of physiological symptoms - by everyone except my family. This carried on well into high school (I finally broke free when we moved to a different country). My "friends," at least the closest I had to that idea, all abandoned me in the most demeaning way possible. A teacher picked on me, telling me that I would amount to nothing. I decided that I would never treat any person that way. Everything changed. I was still (and still am) meak about what is done to me - but I stood up for outcasts. Spreading my time across cliques took effort initially, but it became natural. People started seeing me as a leader, even the popular crowd. The students around me became intolerant towards bullying and ostracization (through avoidance though, not action). I work hard to make people feel special, but it does come off way too too strong right now :). I'm still broken in many ways, but I am aware of them and work on them. Thanks to the abandonment I experienced, if I feel as though I am being abandoned or betrayed I have an extended panic attack: becoming distrustful and pitiful as it subsides. I'm told I'm attractive, but my mental image is still a 15y/o kid being told "I don't know why anyone would kiss him" by my crush/bully (Stockholm Syndrome much? :)). It all came down to a choice, spread acceptance, and I've often wondered if explaining that choice would amount to anything. That choice was made more than half my life ago and it is so critical to my being that I couldn't be swayed any other way. If I had chosen to isolate myself, that would have worked perfectly for avoiding those situations - it would have become a reliable and trustworthy solution. Even if I wanted to change that, after being convinced to, it would be habit. The only real advice I can offer is to teach your children acceptance. They even have to accept the bullies. They have to understand why bullies do what they do. They can be guided to the choice to not repeat what was done to them. I have no idea how to approach an adult with advice: I strongly believe that an adult needs therapy (CBT or somesuch) after a difficult childhood. You just can't let go of nature that has worked for at least a decade based on advice. I would err against resilience: that is inaction. Becoming the opposite of what tortures you is action.

internetman55 8y ago

I consider most of that stuff to be trash. I think, according to common sense, bad things happening to you is actually bad (for a variety of reasons). Many people who make it out of difficult situations end up with minds and belief systems so twisted that they borderline can't function in human relationships (e.g. a relative who would borderline abuse his children by screaming at them until they were crying and cowering over minor infractions because he believes you choose how you react to external circumstances and his dad pulled a gun on him so this obviously isn't even a big deal and the kid needs to stop overreacting and just try harder)

becga 8y ago

There's a good saying: "Time heals all things...but you might not live that long..."