6 ms·

So this is another needless regulation that creates more useless rent-seekers?

by lightbyte 8y ago

eli_gottlieb 8y ago
So the internet imposes a moral requirement for all states/provinces to have uniform sales taxes or value-added taxes?
- michaelt 8y ago
  Not moral, but some would say being a single country imposes a certain practical requirement that the taxes not be too complicated, if we agree commerce is a good thing and waste is a bad thing.
  - dsr_ 8y ago
    The United States of America is, in the terms of other countries, 50 states that have given up certain powers and responsibilities to a federal government but retain their own powers, including the ability to set tax policy inside their own borders. The Commerce Clause gives Congress the power: "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes." This has been widely construed as meaning that states cannot make taxes that affect other states' citizens unless they are doing business in that state. The Supreme Court has just ruled that their earlier ruling (that Store A had to have some physical presence in State S in order for S to require A to charge sales tax) is wrong, and no such physical presence is required.
    - pseingatl 8y ago
      More importantly, it is now clear that American States can tax non-residents, even FOREIGN non-residents who have no connection with the U.S. whatsoever. There will be collateral consequences to this decision. For example, why should I have to pay out-of-state university tuition if I became a state taxpayer due to the sales--and soon to come other--taxes? Drive a car into my state? You have to pay a roads tax. It will be interesting to see how far this goes. Long-arm jurisdiction will become more robust, at the least; another rationale for diversity jurisdiction is removed.
      - zrobotics 8y ago
        >>For example, why should I have to pay out-of-state university tuition if I became a state taxpayer due to the sales--and soon to come other--taxes? Did you pay income tax in the state, which will be what supports the university? Congrats, you get in-state tuition. >>Drive a car into my state? You have to pay a roads tax. Two points: 1) you are using the roads in the state, why can't you fund them? 2) that tax already exists, you pay it when you buy gas.
  - eli_gottlieb 8y ago
    It looks like people are downvoting @dsr for, I dunno, being a pedant or something, but I think their point is important: Americans really do seem to value the extreme heterogeneity, and even outright waste, of having 50 different jurisdictions to do business in, rather than passing uniform laws at the federal level.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - owenversteeg 8y ago
      Although I do agree that in this case it's a bit of a disaster and going to be a huge pain, sometimes it is nice having 50 different jurisdictions. Most things are pretty similar state-by-state, but it can be really nice being able to pick your laws if you have to. Maybe you love weed and you want to pick a state with legal weed. Or maybe you like drones and want to pick a state with fewer drone laws. So many things differ state-to-state, from REAL ID to trans rights to surveillance to taxes to guns to driving age to social aid to public transit. Gay marriage, slavery, and interracial marriage were all issues of the past but they were very important in their day too. I do think it's an important part of what makes America America, and being able to "pick your laws" is an amazing freedom that most people don't have. Now, the actual ability to move wherever you want can sometimes be limited. If you're in Vermont and you want New Hampshire laws, well, that's easy. (Differences: weed, guns, advertising, taxes, many more.) But if you're in Maine and you want Hawaii laws, a move like that probably isn't doable. Still, I think it's a valuable freedom.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - astura 8y ago
    Congress has the ability to nationalize sales tax collection and remittance for online purchases. In fact, there have been bills introduced in the past that proposed to do just that. We might actually see some movement in this direction now.
    - AckSyn 8y ago
      I certainly hope so. Trying to manage the 4,000+ tax variations (various state and city/county) is ridiculous.
  - padobson 8y ago
    I spend $1000/yr in effort and fees on my federal income tax return. There's nothing especially practical about letting the feds take care of things.
scarface74 8y ago
So any service that makes it easier to do business is a “rent seeker”? Does that include Square? AWS? Every site that does e-commerce web hosting?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- User23 8y ago
  If the service they're providing is only necessary because of artificial barriers, then basically yes. The banking cartel that controls the payment system is a huge fan of collecting economic rents, yes.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    So how do you purport to have a global electronic payment network?
    - Dylan16807 8y ago
      If the EU can manage instant bank transfers that cost less than a penny, the US can manage it too.
      - scarface74 8y ago
        Bank transfer fees have nothing to do with the fees charged when taking payments via credit cards. While the average EU interchange fee for taking credit cards is cheaper than in the US, it’s not “less than a penny” https://www.valuepenguin.com/interchange-fees-na-vs-eu https://www.valuepenguin.com/interchange-fees-na-vs-eu
        Dylan16807 8y ago
        Yeah, that's kind of the point. Credit cards are mostly supplied by a couple huge companies that aren't interested in improving their rates. It's very rent-seeking, even though there are very feasible alternatives that cost an order of magnitude or two less.
mikeash 8y ago
Governments need to fund their operations, and allowing some businesses to dodge taxes because of arbitrary geographical differences is unfair and distorts markets.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Dylan16807 8y ago
  The problem is not the general idea of paying sales tax. It's the complication of having ten thousand different sales tax jurisdictions. Complying with the law should not be such a nightmare you need to hire a middleman.
  - azinman2 8y ago
    Why not? We pay for all kinds of professionals to help us navigate what’s required to run a business, pay taxes, and follow the law.
    - Dylan16807 8y ago
      "It's already complicated" is a very poor argument to justify increasing the complication a hundredfold.
    - pas 8y ago
      Yeah, and it makes a barrier to entry, so a lot of potential economic activity does not take place, or it takes place off the records, and generates no tax revenue.
      - azinman2 8y ago
        If you don't start a business because of having to pay a SaaS provider to setup tax payment, then you weren't really serious at all. Note this is only required at over 100k in revenue...
  - mikeash 8y ago

So this is another needless regulation that creates more useless rent-seekers?

eli_gottlieb 8y ago

So the internet imposes a moral requirement for all states/provinces to have uniform sales taxes or value-added taxes?

michaelt 8y ago
Not moral, but some would say being a single country imposes a certain practical requirement that the taxes not be too complicated, if we agree commerce is a good thing and waste is a bad thing.
- dsr_ 8y ago
  The United States of America is, in the terms of other countries, 50 states that have given up certain powers and responsibilities to a federal government but retain their own powers, including the ability to set tax policy inside their own borders. The Commerce Clause gives Congress the power: "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes." This has been widely construed as meaning that states cannot make taxes that affect other states' citizens unless they are doing business in that state. The Supreme Court has just ruled that their earlier ruling (that Store A had to have some physical presence in State S in order for S to require A to charge sales tax) is wrong, and no such physical presence is required.
  - pseingatl 8y ago
    More importantly, it is now clear that American States can tax non-residents, even FOREIGN non-residents who have no connection with the U.S. whatsoever. There will be collateral consequences to this decision. For example, why should I have to pay out-of-state university tuition if I became a state taxpayer due to the sales--and soon to come other--taxes? Drive a car into my state? You have to pay a roads tax. It will be interesting to see how far this goes. Long-arm jurisdiction will become more robust, at the least; another rationale for diversity jurisdiction is removed.
    - zrobotics 8y ago
      >>For example, why should I have to pay out-of-state university tuition if I became a state taxpayer due to the sales--and soon to come other--taxes? Did you pay income tax in the state, which will be what supports the university? Congrats, you get in-state tuition. >>Drive a car into my state? You have to pay a roads tax. Two points: 1) you are using the roads in the state, why can't you fund them? 2) that tax already exists, you pay it when you buy gas.
- eli_gottlieb 8y ago
  It looks like people are downvoting @dsr for, I dunno, being a pedant or something, but I think their point is important: Americans really do seem to value the extreme heterogeneity, and even outright waste, of having 50 different jurisdictions to do business in, rather than passing uniform laws at the federal level.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - owenversteeg 8y ago
    Although I do agree that in this case it's a bit of a disaster and going to be a huge pain, sometimes it is nice having 50 different jurisdictions. Most things are pretty similar state-by-state, but it can be really nice being able to pick your laws if you have to. Maybe you love weed and you want to pick a state with legal weed. Or maybe you like drones and want to pick a state with fewer drone laws. So many things differ state-to-state, from REAL ID to trans rights to surveillance to taxes to guns to driving age to social aid to public transit. Gay marriage, slavery, and interracial marriage were all issues of the past but they were very important in their day too. I do think it's an important part of what makes America America, and being able to "pick your laws" is an amazing freedom that most people don't have. Now, the actual ability to move wherever you want can sometimes be limited. If you're in Vermont and you want New Hampshire laws, well, that's easy. (Differences: weed, guns, advertising, taxes, many more.) But if you're in Maine and you want Hawaii laws, a move like that probably isn't doable. Still, I think it's a valuable freedom.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- astura 8y ago
  Congress has the ability to nationalize sales tax collection and remittance for online purchases. In fact, there have been bills introduced in the past that proposed to do just that. We might actually see some movement in this direction now.
  - AckSyn 8y ago
    I certainly hope so. Trying to manage the 4,000+ tax variations (various state and city/county) is ridiculous.
- padobson 8y ago
  I spend $1000/yr in effort and fees on my federal income tax return. There's nothing especially practical about letting the feds take care of things.

scarface74 8y ago

So any service that makes it easier to do business is a “rent seeker”? Does that include Square? AWS? Every site that does e-commerce web hosting?

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
User23 8y ago
If the service they're providing is only necessary because of artificial barriers, then basically yes. The banking cartel that controls the payment system is a huge fan of collecting economic rents, yes.
- scarface74 8y ago
  So how do you purport to have a global electronic payment network?
  - Dylan16807 8y ago
    If the EU can manage instant bank transfers that cost less than a penny, the US can manage it too.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      Bank transfer fees have nothing to do with the fees charged when taking payments via credit cards. While the average EU interchange fee for taking credit cards is cheaper than in the US, it’s not “less than a penny” https://www.valuepenguin.com/interchange-fees-na-vs-eu https://www.valuepenguin.com/interchange-fees-na-vs-eu
      - Dylan16807 8y ago
        Yeah, that's kind of the point. Credit cards are mostly supplied by a couple huge companies that aren't interested in improving their rates. It's very rent-seeking, even though there are very feasible alternatives that cost an order of magnitude or two less.

mikeash 8y ago

Governments need to fund their operations, and allowing some businesses to dodge taxes because of arbitrary geographical differences is unfair and distorts markets.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Dylan16807 8y ago
The problem is not the general idea of paying sales tax. It's the complication of having ten thousand different sales tax jurisdictions. Complying with the law should not be such a nightmare you need to hire a middleman.
- azinman2 8y ago
  Why not? We pay for all kinds of professionals to help us navigate what’s required to run a business, pay taxes, and follow the law.
  - Dylan16807 8y ago
    "It's already complicated" is a very poor argument to justify increasing the complication a hundredfold.
  - pas 8y ago
    Yeah, and it makes a barrier to entry, so a lot of potential economic activity does not take place, or it takes place off the records, and generates no tax revenue.
    - azinman2 8y ago
      If you don't start a business because of having to pay a SaaS provider to setup tax payment, then you weren't really serious at all. Note this is only required at over 100k in revenue...
- mikeash 8y ago