8 ms·

Why China doesn’t dominate soccer

76 points by pmcpinto 8y ago

aaavl2821 8y ago
While I think things like vision, communication and teamwork, spatial awareness and improvisational ability are critically important and can't be taught (though they can be learned through lots of play), this article definitely shortchanges the amount of physical and technical skills required for soccer / football that can be taught and developed through practice Good stamina is a prerequisite for being good at soccer / football. Players run 5-10 miles per game and a lot of that is intense bursts of speed with lots of changes of direction and agile footwork -- which is incredibly tiring. A team gets a limited number of substitutions and there are no timeouts / breaks other than halftime. So you have to be in good shape, and that's definitely a skill that comes with practice Technique / "touch" is also critical and can be developed. The most immediately striking easily observable difference btw pros and less skilled players is that pros touch is just impeccable -- the ball just goes exactly where they want it. It's like a part of their body. That comes with drills and repetition. If you are in good shape and have a good touch, you'll be better than most players up to probably a US division 3 college level (you can also be good at this level sacrificing touch for intelligence / game sense, speed, or another attribute). But beyond that you need to either have freakish skills / athleticism and good game sense or just really good game sense
- padobson 8y ago
  So if you look at a distribution of folks possessing the attributes required of a footballer, you can be fairly competitive amongst the general population with one or two, but the long tail of elite players requires all seven of the attributes you mention. you'll be better than most players up to probably a US division 3 college level If you really love the game, this sounds like a fairly satisfying career peak. A reasonably healthy player should take comfort in knowing it's achievable through effort alone.
  - aaavl2821 8y ago
    I think that's true. I had friends I played with in high school who played D3 who were just fast and decently skilled, some who played D1 who were just very skilled and athletic but didnt have the best game sense, and some who walked on to D1 teams who werent that athletic but just disciplined, safe players -- usually central mid / defenders who could control the ball and pass quickly As I've gotten older I've found that having decent ball control and stamina makes up for me being slower and less agile, and helps me enjoy casual pickup games with younger players. Instead of jogging I'll do dribbling exercises for a cardio workout. I love playing soccer but its harder to play as I get older, and these exercises enable me to keep playing casual pickup games
the_af 8y ago
Seems pretty weak and unsupported. It can be summed up as "China doesn't excel at soccer because of authoritarianism and because the sport is not well understood by anyone and central planning doesn't help". Ok, if you say so. Where's the evidence?
- sjm-lbm 8y ago
  Totally agree. Just to pick a specific example and add on a bit: Germany reorganized their nationwide soccer development system in the mid-2000s to be much more centralized, and that's widely considered to be one of the reasons they have risen in prominence recently (they are the current reigning World Cup champions, for instance).
  - JackFr 8y ago
    > one of the reasons they have risen in prominence recently Hmmmm.... From TFA: "West Germany ... won the World Cup in 1954, 1974 and 1990, and reached the final in 1966, 1982 and 1986."
    - sjm-lbm 8y ago
      Well, there was a really bad period in between then and now. They finished last in their group in Euro 2000, and did quite badly in 2004 (though I don't remember specifics), and those were the results that motivated several changes (or, at least, moved some already-in-progress moves towards centralization forward).
- unexpected 8y ago
  The Chinese women's team is actually pretty good. This is just banal political tripe. I feel like the author had a point that he wanted to make and just said anything to support it.
- oblio 8y ago
  The evidence is obviously football in the USSR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_in_the_Soviet_Union I'm being ironic, the USSR had both very strong club teams and a very strong national team.
CodeSheikh 8y ago
This is not specific to China but many larger countries who are good at other sports but they don't do well at soccer. Australia is very good at Rugby, Cricket but their soccer team is average and they make it to world cups only because of limited competition in their confederation (OFC). Domestic soccer leagues are just picking up in China. They mostly comprise to Chinese players and/or end up with retirees of European clubs (Retired Andre Iniesta of Barcelona/Spain moving to some club in China).
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- aaavl2821 8y ago
  That's similar to the US. I think a lot of it just comes down to the number of kids that grow up playing a sport i.e. the talent pool. In the US lots of kids try playing soccer but most focus more on baseball / basketball / football / hockey. Whereas in countries where soccer is the main sport the talent pool is larger and you have tons of talented kids who've been playing for two decades
  - moorhosj 8y ago
    Yet, the US dominates in women’s soccer. Maybe there are fewer options for them to play other sports (football specifically)?
    - zhdc1 8y ago
      The US actually has a fairly good men's national team. As weak as CONCACAF is, there's a reason why they've qualified for seven of the last eight World Cups - and why their tie with Trinidad and Tobago was so surprising.
      - moorhosj 8y ago
        Currently 25th in FIFA rankings (3rd in CONCACAF). Is there any other major men's sport where the US ranks outside the top 20 (maybe cricket)? - 15th in rugby https://www.worldrugby.org/rankings/mru?lang=en https://www.worldrugby.org/rankings/mru?lang=en - 6th in tennis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITF_Rankings#Men https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITF_Rankings#Men - 4th in hockey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IIHF_World_Ranking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IIHF_World_Ranking - 2nd in volleyball https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIVB_World_Rankings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIVB_World_Rankings
nacho2sweet 8y ago
There is a really good BBC podcast about it. There are full soccer academy's now. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p066783g https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p066783g . They delve in some cultural stuff and how they need creativity and individualism in their game and should get over their players having tattoos (they make them cover them up).
klexin1 8y ago
The social structure in many cities does not enable sports. If you have a city of millions but heavy pollution, factory jobs with long hours, expensive real estate so no pitches
ythn 8y ago
> American mainstream sports tend to rely heavily on the authoritarian figure of the coach, who draws up plays for obedient players to execute. Which sports is the author referring to other than American Football? I played volleyball, and the coach had little control over the way a serve would play out other than which players were on the court.
- kristianc 8y ago
  > Which sports is the author referring to other than American Football? I mean this pretty clearly refers to Baseball as well.
  - fjsolwmv 8y ago
    Almost the only play planning in baseball is the catcher calling pitches. Everything else is reaction to where the ball goes. The coach does staffing.
    - onychomys 8y ago
      The manager (the head of a baseball team is the manager, not the coach, for whatever reason) is also responsible for putting on the shift, telling the batter to bunt, calling for stolen base attempts, and other strategic things along those lines.
    - preordained 8y ago
      This. I was never a huge baseball fan, but my sons got into it, and observing beyond the surface it is really impressive how many split-second intelligent decisions you have to make in baseball, with (again) quick ad hoc coordination.
ccnafr 8y ago
There are articles online that claim the opposite. I guess it's a matter of perspective.
abakus 8y ago
Why United States doesn't dominate soccer?
- kenjackson 8y ago
  For the US it is more about the quality of athletes and interest in the sport. The best athletes don't play soccer. They go to football, basketball, and to some extent baseball. On my son's club basketball team they regularly get some of the best soccer players in the city joining, and dropping soccer. The inverse (great basketball players joining soccer and leaving basketball) rarely/never happens.
  - megaman22 8y ago
    When I was in school, we played soccer to get in shape for basketball season (we were too small to field a football team). People tried really hard to push soccer, and we were actually better at soccer than basketball, but soccer just never had the same kind of excitement. You need too many people and too much space to actually play soccer, compared to a little bit of driveway and a ubiquitous hoop for basketball - you don't even need another person, you can spend hours blissfully shooting by yourself.
    - eftpotrm 8y ago
      Three kids, one ball, not very much space. One goes in goal (if needs be a jumper or coat on each side), the other two compete to put the ball past them x times, then rotate the goalkeeper. Continue ad nauseam. Or go to a park and practice ball skills, solo. Ex-England captain Wayne Rooney was famous for having done that for hours at a time as a kid. I'm not actually a particular soccer fan and quite enjoy basketball, but it's definitely not true that soccer has higher kit, space or numbers requirements to get in a game as a kid.
      - thesz 8y ago
        >Continue ad nauseam. This is what we did. A great way to spend summer when you are teen. As for practicing ball skills, the very nickname Pele was from the sound of the can Pele played instead of ball - his family was too poor to have soccer ball.
bluejekyll 8y ago
I find it hard to believe coaches of any professional Soccer/Football team abide by non-compliance of the team. The people called out in this story are all super stars, and have more power in a sense than the coaches of their teams. Much like Lebron James is in basketball. But if you look at other teams, like Spain, in which there is less dependence on a single player, and more on the team play, my guess is that part of that is due to the coach pushing for more passing, more calm control of the ball. Not to say they don’t have individually great players on the team, but they clearly play as a team, and not individuals. The article might be right that to excel in Soccer one needs to be more free in expression and experimentation. My theory on why Brazil excels, is that socially the sport is played almost all the time by everyone... and it’s a great sport for low income areas, ball, field, game. In the US, we rarely did pickup games of soccer, even though many of us played in the neighborhood, because most of the other kids wanted to play American Football...
zhdc1 8y ago
This is like asking why Brazil (pop 208M) and Nigeria (pop 191m) don't field competitive cricket teams. Interestingly enough, China does have a fairly decent women's soccer team (~17th in the world), so they must be doing something right.
- endisukaj 8y ago
  Cricket is not the most popular sport of those countries. Football is.
  - bilbo0s 8y ago
    I think you may have misinterpreted zhdc1's point. I think they mean to say that if Brazilians and Nigerians have a cultural preference for football, why attempt to force cricket onto them?
    - zhdc1 8y ago
      Agreed, and also that population size and economic power aren't always the end all-be alls for success. The US has a great women's team in part because lots of women play soccer, and in part because their aren't that many other competitive sports for them to play on a professional level. The US has an OK men's team mainly because there are enough athletes left over after football, basketball, baseball, and hockey take their cuts to field a somewhat competitive team. They didn't qualify this time around, but they have qualified for seven of the last eight World Cups, so they're doing something right. In both cases, it has little to do with how much money is spent (if that were the case, the US would dominate the sport) and more to do with how many top athletes decide to play the sport with kids AND stick with it as a profession once they become adults.
    - endisukaj 8y ago
      I didn't misinterpret it, but even in the article it's mentioned that China's most popular sport is Football. So it's the same as in Brazil in that respect.
      - 8y ago
fjsolwmv 8y ago
What sports to Chinese kids play?
- strig 8y ago
  League of Legends
- whooshee 8y ago
  Ping Pong, Basketball, and e-sports..
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    How does basketball get popular amongst a shorter population for widespread playing - according to this chart http://www.wecare4eyes.com/averageemployeeheights.htm http://www.wecare4eyes.com/averageemployeeheights.htm average height in PRC is one of the bottom few. I'm above average in UK but playing basketball or volleyball my height was always a major disadvantage. I realise you can improve your jump game (plyometrics ftw!) but still ...
627467 8y ago
Parallel to the article's argument, I'd argue football (soccer) unpredictability are due to size and diversity in almost all it's aspects: most number of fans/aspiring players, also inherently (culturally) most diverse set of potential players/strategies and leagues organization. At the regional scale, those also tend to be the most competitive and popular leagues, enabling breeding grounds of diverse playing styles. There's diversity even in how those leagues are managed and organized. Compared to popular US sports franchises, which according to the article and my understanding (non-american), football(soccer) leagues around the world are much less centralized. I don't know about China now, but growing up in Asia in 90s I'd say it is hard to foster the type of rivalry/diversity/competition needed to adapt to football(soccer).
nabla9 8y ago
There is a better explanation. Being talented individual is not enough. They have to play against other equally talented individuals in the highest level professional leagues from the age of 18 to develop tactically and technically. China needs a professional soccer league with top level foreigners or they need to send their best to European leagues. They can do it but it can take several generations. Soccer is the most popular sport in the world and has most professional athletes by far. Best individuals from all over the world go to play in best professional teams, mostly in Europe and they continue to grow with better opponents and teammates. Talented Brazilians playing in top leagues all over the world a bring all that with them to their national team. Iceland (population little over 300,000) has professional players playing in England, Russia, Sweden, Netherlands ...
- WhompingWindows 8y ago
  Iceland's success is probably not reproducible in a larger nation. Due to their numerous indoor fields, which draw on the plentiful/cheap electricity from geothermal power to keep the lights heated and grass growing, and their plethora of coaches (I heard 500 per capita) for their 300k population, it's really not feasible in China.
  - GFischer 8y ago
    Here in Uruguay we don´t have cheap energy but we do have a ridiculous number of both professional and amateur leagues and coaches (and a lot of grassland to convert into soccer fields) For a population of 3 million: - Pro league with 30 pro teams (each with a youth system with 7-8 teams) + 80 semi-amateur teams (with promotion to the pro leagues) That's between 10.000 and 20.000 players in the pro system. 100 (or more) each year are sold overseas. - Very serious amateur league with 8.000 players every weekend in the capital city, Montevideo (any of those 8.000 players could be a pro in a weak national league) plus 2.000 players in the league for smaller cities. - Teenagers play leagues much like Americans might play high school and college sports, there are probably 30.000 teenagers playing in leagues - 140.000 players in all the leagues across all the smaller cities. So that's about 200.000 active players for a population of 3 million - I was one until a few years ago :) If China or India could achieve that much sports penetration (imagine 200.000.000 Chinese playing competitive soccer every weekend!), I don't doubt they'd be one of the top ranked teams in the world. https://www.ovaciondigital.com.uy/futbol/mundo-futbolistas.html https://www.ovaciondigital.com.uy/futbol/mundo-futbolistas.h... https://www.referi.uy/tierra-fertil-2017-emigraron-107-jugadores-casi-10-equipos-n1155154 https://www.referi.uy/tierra-fertil-2017-emigraron-107-jugad...
ggg9990 8y ago
China plays the US for the gold medal in Olympic BEACH VOLLEYBALL. They can dominate anything they want, they just haven’t invested the effort and money into soccer yet. There are more popular sports in China like basketball which they will go after first.
- rc_hadoken 8y ago
  Basketball? Yeah, I'm all for chasing and achieving goals...dreams in this case. But China ain't going nowhere in Basketball any time in my lifetime..or two lifetimes at that.
  - AtlasBarfed 8y ago
    Average Division III teams used to beat pro chinese teams, but this was back in the 90s. They probably are better now.
  - 628C6l0 8y ago
    Nuke these fucking chinks
- scarejunba 8y ago
  Basketball is more popular than football in China? Article says opposite.
kneel 8y ago
Having an elite soccer team requires talented players, one of the most important talents is elite running speed. To have elite running speed you need to have a higher torso/leg ratio, basically long legs and a high center of gravity. There are regional differences around the world with torso/leg ratios. China is on the lower end, much of Africa is on the high end.
- larrydag 8y ago
  ugh. explain Mexico then. Not a quality post here.
  - WhompingWindows 8y ago
    Yeah, this is not a good explanation at all, bordering on racist honestly. No data cited for claims, and plenty of counterexamples to disprove the point easily.
    - prewett 8y ago
      What, exactly, about the post is racist? The parent cited specific biological characteristics. Generalizations are not racist. Nobody claims it's racist to say that Kenyans tend to be good runners because of genes. In fact, The Atlantic made that claim [1]. The parent poster is making similar types of claims as The Atlantic article. Poor post, ok. Racist, no. [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/04/why-kenyans-make-such-great-runners-a-story-of-genes-and-cultures/256015/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/04/wh...
- WhompingWindows 8y ago
  Where is your data? Where is your evidence for this borderline racist claim? Africa doesn't have strong teams, clearly your explanation falls apart with the slightest analysis.
  - kneel 8y ago
    Africa has the fastest teams, that's for sure. There are other factors that go into a team's success other than region, I definitely said speed is an important factor among others right?
mdekkers 8y ago
paywall
LiweiZ 8y ago
Dynamic coordination among a group of people. Top down approach does not work best under this. It's not reactive enough. There are just so many to talk about regarding this. But I think that's one of the very core dimensions of this game. And there are so many other national teams do not reach their potentials. China is a nice key word for clickbait. And it worked well.
PappaPatat 8y ago
Wrong tittle, should be: why China doesn’t dominate soccer yet. They are investing heavily, buying loads of European youth football trainers, scouting their own youth at great rate and building their league up pretty fast. You heard it here first: they will host the World Cup football in 2030 or 34 and will be contesting for the highest rank.
SurrealSoul 8y ago
Wasn't china good in the early 2000's? I think they made it to the finals or something, what happened?
nomy99 8y ago
read: Why India doesn't dominate soccer
pmcpinto 8y ago
I think that so far a weak professional league it's one of the main factors. Yes they're being able to hire some good players and coaches, but they go there because of the money and don't are at the top of their game. For example, Andre Villas Boas left the chinese club he was coaching in order to participate in Dakar rally. That would never happen if he was coaching a european club. Investing in youth academies will be the best path to achieve a comparative level to some european leagues. It would be interesting if they are already doing this and for how long, because we don't see any significant results yet.
eumenides1 8y ago
The reasons why presented in the article aren't right as most of the commenters have pointed out. My counter point to this is Hockey and the USSR. Hockey is also a free flowing game that relies on team discipline and individual creativity. The USSR was an amazing hockey machine. It comes down to cultural reasons. USSR's people liked hockey and the USSR supported hockey monetarily. The USSR finds success in hockey. Brazil's people like soccer and Brazil+Brazil's private teams supported soccer monetarily. Brazil finds success in soccer. China's people don't know what they like yet. The people have just started to have have free time because of the recent economical liberalization. China has only started to support soccer monetarily. So it's reasonable to expect that China doesn't play soccer well. They could be better in the future as long as they have the time and culture change it needs. Side note: I don't know why England sucks. The people love it, god awful amounts of money are spent on soccer/football. But thank god they haven't figured it because the world would not hear the end of it...
- coatmatter 8y ago
  > Side note: I don't know why England sucks. The people love it, god awful amounts of money are spent on soccer/football. But thank god they haven't figured it because the world would not hear the end of it... I wonder if it just comes down to how they practise it and the level of dedication - similar to how this feature alludes in the case of cricket: http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/653673.html http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/653673.ht...
username3 8y ago
Soccer is slow. Soccer takes too long to fail. Expend energy running across the field to take one shot.
amaccuish 8y ago
Is there a reason for the recent china bashing? Seemingly every article about china is finding some new way to criticise it.
petraeus 8y ago
Its simple really, chinese ppl in general dont care about sports let alone hockey, most of my friends have never been to a hockey game, or baseball or a soccer match. Chinese people would rather work and have other hobbies outside of sports. Sports isnt the end all be all. its actually not very important at all in the big scheme, you can get excerise in many other ways and be successful in many different professions.

76 points by pmcpinto 8y ago

While I think things like vision, communication and teamwork, spatial awareness and improvisational ability are critically important and can't be taught (though they can be learned through lots of play), this article definitely shortchanges the amount of physical and technical skills required for soccer / football that can be taught and developed through practice Good stamina is a prerequisite for being good at soccer / football. Players run 5-10 miles per game and a lot of that is intense bursts of speed with lots of changes of direction and agile footwork -- which is incredibly tiring. A team gets a limited number of substitutions and there are no timeouts / breaks other than halftime. So you have to be in good shape, and that's definitely a skill that comes with practice Technique / "touch" is also critical and can be developed. The most immediately striking easily observable difference btw pros and less skilled players is that pros touch is just impeccable -- the ball just goes exactly where they want it. It's like a part of their body. That comes with drills and repetition. If you are in good shape and have a good touch, you'll be better than most players up to probably a US division 3 college level (you can also be good at this level sacrificing touch for intelligence / game sense, speed, or another attribute). But beyond that you need to either have freakish skills / athleticism and good game sense or just really good game sense

padobson 8y ago
So if you look at a distribution of folks possessing the attributes required of a footballer, you can be fairly competitive amongst the general population with one or two, but the long tail of elite players requires all seven of the attributes you mention. you'll be better than most players up to probably a US division 3 college level If you really love the game, this sounds like a fairly satisfying career peak. A reasonably healthy player should take comfort in knowing it's achievable through effort alone.
- aaavl2821 8y ago
  I think that's true. I had friends I played with in high school who played D3 who were just fast and decently skilled, some who played D1 who were just very skilled and athletic but didnt have the best game sense, and some who walked on to D1 teams who werent that athletic but just disciplined, safe players -- usually central mid / defenders who could control the ball and pass quickly As I've gotten older I've found that having decent ball control and stamina makes up for me being slower and less agile, and helps me enjoy casual pickup games with younger players. Instead of jogging I'll do dribbling exercises for a cardio workout. I love playing soccer but its harder to play as I get older, and these exercises enable me to keep playing casual pickup games

the_af 8y ago

Seems pretty weak and unsupported. It can be summed up as "China doesn't excel at soccer because of authoritarianism and because the sport is not well understood by anyone and central planning doesn't help". Ok, if you say so. Where's the evidence?

sjm-lbm 8y ago
Totally agree. Just to pick a specific example and add on a bit: Germany reorganized their nationwide soccer development system in the mid-2000s to be much more centralized, and that's widely considered to be one of the reasons they have risen in prominence recently (they are the current reigning World Cup champions, for instance).
- JackFr 8y ago
  > one of the reasons they have risen in prominence recently Hmmmm.... From TFA: "West Germany ... won the World Cup in 1954, 1974 and 1990, and reached the final in 1966, 1982 and 1986."
  - sjm-lbm 8y ago
    Well, there was a really bad period in between then and now. They finished last in their group in Euro 2000, and did quite badly in 2004 (though I don't remember specifics), and those were the results that motivated several changes (or, at least, moved some already-in-progress moves towards centralization forward).
unexpected 8y ago
The Chinese women's team is actually pretty good. This is just banal political tripe. I feel like the author had a point that he wanted to make and just said anything to support it.
oblio 8y ago
The evidence is obviously football in the USSR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_in_the_Soviet_Union I'm being ironic, the USSR had both very strong club teams and a very strong national team.

CodeSheikh 8y ago

This is not specific to China but many larger countries who are good at other sports but they don't do well at soccer. Australia is very good at Rugby, Cricket but their soccer team is average and they make it to world cups only because of limited competition in their confederation (OFC). Domestic soccer leagues are just picking up in China. They mostly comprise to Chinese players and/or end up with retirees of European clubs (Retired Andre Iniesta of Barcelona/Spain moving to some club in China).

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
aaavl2821 8y ago
That's similar to the US. I think a lot of it just comes down to the number of kids that grow up playing a sport i.e. the talent pool. In the US lots of kids try playing soccer but most focus more on baseball / basketball / football / hockey. Whereas in countries where soccer is the main sport the talent pool is larger and you have tons of talented kids who've been playing for two decades
- moorhosj 8y ago
  Yet, the US dominates in women’s soccer. Maybe there are fewer options for them to play other sports (football specifically)?
  - zhdc1 8y ago
    The US actually has a fairly good men's national team. As weak as CONCACAF is, there's a reason why they've qualified for seven of the last eight World Cups - and why their tie with Trinidad and Tobago was so surprising.
    - moorhosj 8y ago
      Currently 25th in FIFA rankings (3rd in CONCACAF). Is there any other major men's sport where the US ranks outside the top 20 (maybe cricket)? - 15th in rugby https://www.worldrugby.org/rankings/mru?lang=en https://www.worldrugby.org/rankings/mru?lang=en - 6th in tennis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITF_Rankings#Men https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITF_Rankings#Men - 4th in hockey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IIHF_World_Ranking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IIHF_World_Ranking - 2nd in volleyball https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIVB_World_Rankings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIVB_World_Rankings

nacho2sweet 8y ago

There is a really good BBC podcast about it. There are full soccer academy's now. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p066783g https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p066783g . They delve in some cultural stuff and how they need creativity and individualism in their game and should get over their players having tattoos (they make them cover them up).

klexin1 8y ago

The social structure in many cities does not enable sports. If you have a city of millions but heavy pollution, factory jobs with long hours, expensive real estate so no pitches

ythn 8y ago

> American mainstream sports tend to rely heavily on the authoritarian figure of the coach, who draws up plays for obedient players to execute. Which sports is the author referring to other than American Football? I played volleyball, and the coach had little control over the way a serve would play out other than which players were on the court.

kristianc 8y ago
> Which sports is the author referring to other than American Football? I mean this pretty clearly refers to Baseball as well.
- fjsolwmv 8y ago
  Almost the only play planning in baseball is the catcher calling pitches. Everything else is reaction to where the ball goes. The coach does staffing.
  - onychomys 8y ago
    The manager (the head of a baseball team is the manager, not the coach, for whatever reason) is also responsible for putting on the shift, telling the batter to bunt, calling for stolen base attempts, and other strategic things along those lines.
  - preordained 8y ago
    This. I was never a huge baseball fan, but my sons got into it, and observing beyond the surface it is really impressive how many split-second intelligent decisions you have to make in baseball, with (again) quick ad hoc coordination.

ccnafr 8y ago

There are articles online that claim the opposite. I guess it's a matter of perspective.

abakus 8y ago

Why United States doesn't dominate soccer?

kenjackson 8y ago
For the US it is more about the quality of athletes and interest in the sport. The best athletes don't play soccer. They go to football, basketball, and to some extent baseball. On my son's club basketball team they regularly get some of the best soccer players in the city joining, and dropping soccer. The inverse (great basketball players joining soccer and leaving basketball) rarely/never happens.
- megaman22 8y ago
  When I was in school, we played soccer to get in shape for basketball season (we were too small to field a football team). People tried really hard to push soccer, and we were actually better at soccer than basketball, but soccer just never had the same kind of excitement. You need too many people and too much space to actually play soccer, compared to a little bit of driveway and a ubiquitous hoop for basketball - you don't even need another person, you can spend hours blissfully shooting by yourself.
  - eftpotrm 8y ago
    Three kids, one ball, not very much space. One goes in goal (if needs be a jumper or coat on each side), the other two compete to put the ball past them x times, then rotate the goalkeeper. Continue ad nauseam. Or go to a park and practice ball skills, solo. Ex-England captain Wayne Rooney was famous for having done that for hours at a time as a kid. I'm not actually a particular soccer fan and quite enjoy basketball, but it's definitely not true that soccer has higher kit, space or numbers requirements to get in a game as a kid.
    - thesz 8y ago
      >Continue ad nauseam. This is what we did. A great way to spend summer when you are teen. As for practicing ball skills, the very nickname Pele was from the sound of the can Pele played instead of ball - his family was too poor to have soccer ball.

bluejekyll 8y ago

I find it hard to believe coaches of any professional Soccer/Football team abide by non-compliance of the team. The people called out in this story are all super stars, and have more power in a sense than the coaches of their teams. Much like Lebron James is in basketball. But if you look at other teams, like Spain, in which there is less dependence on a single player, and more on the team play, my guess is that part of that is due to the coach pushing for more passing, more calm control of the ball. Not to say they don’t have individually great players on the team, but they clearly play as a team, and not individuals. The article might be right that to excel in Soccer one needs to be more free in expression and experimentation. My theory on why Brazil excels, is that socially the sport is played almost all the time by everyone... and it’s a great sport for low income areas, ball, field, game. In the US, we rarely did pickup games of soccer, even though many of us played in the neighborhood, because most of the other kids wanted to play American Football...

zhdc1 8y ago

This is like asking why Brazil (pop 208M) and Nigeria (pop 191m) don't field competitive cricket teams. Interestingly enough, China does have a fairly decent women's soccer team (~17th in the world), so they must be doing something right.

endisukaj 8y ago
Cricket is not the most popular sport of those countries. Football is.
- bilbo0s 8y ago
  I think you may have misinterpreted zhdc1's point. I think they mean to say that if Brazilians and Nigerians have a cultural preference for football, why attempt to force cricket onto them?
  - zhdc1 8y ago
    Agreed, and also that population size and economic power aren't always the end all-be alls for success. The US has a great women's team in part because lots of women play soccer, and in part because their aren't that many other competitive sports for them to play on a professional level. The US has an OK men's team mainly because there are enough athletes left over after football, basketball, baseball, and hockey take their cuts to field a somewhat competitive team. They didn't qualify this time around, but they have qualified for seven of the last eight World Cups, so they're doing something right. In both cases, it has little to do with how much money is spent (if that were the case, the US would dominate the sport) and more to do with how many top athletes decide to play the sport with kids AND stick with it as a profession once they become adults.
  - endisukaj 8y ago
    I didn't misinterpret it, but even in the article it's mentioned that China's most popular sport is Football. So it's the same as in Brazil in that respect.
    - 8y ago

fjsolwmv 8y ago

What sports to Chinese kids play?

strig 8y ago
League of Legends
whooshee 8y ago
Ping Pong, Basketball, and e-sports..
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  How does basketball get popular amongst a shorter population for widespread playing - according to this chart http://www.wecare4eyes.com/averageemployeeheights.htm http://www.wecare4eyes.com/averageemployeeheights.htm average height in PRC is one of the bottom few. I'm above average in UK but playing basketball or volleyball my height was always a major disadvantage. I realise you can improve your jump game (plyometrics ftw!) but still ...

627467 8y ago

Parallel to the article's argument, I'd argue football (soccer) unpredictability are due to size and diversity in almost all it's aspects: most number of fans/aspiring players, also inherently (culturally) most diverse set of potential players/strategies and leagues organization. At the regional scale, those also tend to be the most competitive and popular leagues, enabling breeding grounds of diverse playing styles. There's diversity even in how those leagues are managed and organized. Compared to popular US sports franchises, which according to the article and my understanding (non-american), football(soccer) leagues around the world are much less centralized. I don't know about China now, but growing up in Asia in 90s I'd say it is hard to foster the type of rivalry/diversity/competition needed to adapt to football(soccer).

nabla9 8y ago

There is a better explanation. Being talented individual is not enough. They have to play against other equally talented individuals in the highest level professional leagues from the age of 18 to develop tactically and technically. China needs a professional soccer league with top level foreigners or they need to send their best to European leagues. They can do it but it can take several generations. Soccer is the most popular sport in the world and has most professional athletes by far. Best individuals from all over the world go to play in best professional teams, mostly in Europe and they continue to grow with better opponents and teammates. Talented Brazilians playing in top leagues all over the world a bring all that with them to their national team. Iceland (population little over 300,000) has professional players playing in England, Russia, Sweden, Netherlands ...

WhompingWindows 8y ago
Iceland's success is probably not reproducible in a larger nation. Due to their numerous indoor fields, which draw on the plentiful/cheap electricity from geothermal power to keep the lights heated and grass growing, and their plethora of coaches (I heard 500 per capita) for their 300k population, it's really not feasible in China.
- GFischer 8y ago
  Here in Uruguay we don´t have cheap energy but we do have a ridiculous number of both professional and amateur leagues and coaches (and a lot of grassland to convert into soccer fields) For a population of 3 million: - Pro league with 30 pro teams (each with a youth system with 7-8 teams) + 80 semi-amateur teams (with promotion to the pro leagues) That's between 10.000 and 20.000 players in the pro system. 100 (or more) each year are sold overseas. - Very serious amateur league with 8.000 players every weekend in the capital city, Montevideo (any of those 8.000 players could be a pro in a weak national league) plus 2.000 players in the league for smaller cities. - Teenagers play leagues much like Americans might play high school and college sports, there are probably 30.000 teenagers playing in leagues - 140.000 players in all the leagues across all the smaller cities. So that's about 200.000 active players for a population of 3 million - I was one until a few years ago :) If China or India could achieve that much sports penetration (imagine 200.000.000 Chinese playing competitive soccer every weekend!), I don't doubt they'd be one of the top ranked teams in the world. https://www.ovaciondigital.com.uy/futbol/mundo-futbolistas.html https://www.ovaciondigital.com.uy/futbol/mundo-futbolistas.h... https://www.referi.uy/tierra-fertil-2017-emigraron-107-jugadores-casi-10-equipos-n1155154 https://www.referi.uy/tierra-fertil-2017-emigraron-107-jugad...

ggg9990 8y ago

China plays the US for the gold medal in Olympic BEACH VOLLEYBALL. They can dominate anything they want, they just haven’t invested the effort and money into soccer yet. There are more popular sports in China like basketball which they will go after first.

rc_hadoken 8y ago
Basketball? Yeah, I'm all for chasing and achieving goals...dreams in this case. But China ain't going nowhere in Basketball any time in my lifetime..or two lifetimes at that.
- AtlasBarfed 8y ago
  Average Division III teams used to beat pro chinese teams, but this was back in the 90s. They probably are better now.
- 628C6l0 8y ago
  Nuke these fucking chinks
scarejunba 8y ago
Basketball is more popular than football in China? Article says opposite.

kneel 8y ago

Having an elite soccer team requires talented players, one of the most important talents is elite running speed. To have elite running speed you need to have a higher torso/leg ratio, basically long legs and a high center of gravity. There are regional differences around the world with torso/leg ratios. China is on the lower end, much of Africa is on the high end.

larrydag 8y ago
ugh. explain Mexico then. Not a quality post here.
- WhompingWindows 8y ago
  Yeah, this is not a good explanation at all, bordering on racist honestly. No data cited for claims, and plenty of counterexamples to disprove the point easily.
  - prewett 8y ago
    What, exactly, about the post is racist? The parent cited specific biological characteristics. Generalizations are not racist. Nobody claims it's racist to say that Kenyans tend to be good runners because of genes. In fact, The Atlantic made that claim [1]. The parent poster is making similar types of claims as The Atlantic article. Poor post, ok. Racist, no. [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/04/why-kenyans-make-such-great-runners-a-story-of-genes-and-cultures/256015/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/04/wh...
WhompingWindows 8y ago
Where is your data? Where is your evidence for this borderline racist claim? Africa doesn't have strong teams, clearly your explanation falls apart with the slightest analysis.
- kneel 8y ago
  Africa has the fastest teams, that's for sure. There are other factors that go into a team's success other than region, I definitely said speed is an important factor among others right?

mdekkers 8y ago

paywall

LiweiZ 8y ago

Dynamic coordination among a group of people. Top down approach does not work best under this. It's not reactive enough. There are just so many to talk about regarding this. But I think that's one of the very core dimensions of this game. And there are so many other national teams do not reach their potentials. China is a nice key word for clickbait. And it worked well.

PappaPatat 8y ago

Wrong tittle, should be: why China doesn’t dominate soccer yet. They are investing heavily, buying loads of European youth football trainers, scouting their own youth at great rate and building their league up pretty fast. You heard it here first: they will host the World Cup football in 2030 or 34 and will be contesting for the highest rank.

SurrealSoul 8y ago

Wasn't china good in the early 2000's? I think they made it to the finals or something, what happened?

nomy99 8y ago

read: Why India doesn't dominate soccer

pmcpinto 8y ago

I think that so far a weak professional league it's one of the main factors. Yes they're being able to hire some good players and coaches, but they go there because of the money and don't are at the top of their game. For example, Andre Villas Boas left the chinese club he was coaching in order to participate in Dakar rally. That would never happen if he was coaching a european club. Investing in youth academies will be the best path to achieve a comparative level to some european leagues. It would be interesting if they are already doing this and for how long, because we don't see any significant results yet.

eumenides1 8y ago

The reasons why presented in the article aren't right as most of the commenters have pointed out. My counter point to this is Hockey and the USSR. Hockey is also a free flowing game that relies on team discipline and individual creativity. The USSR was an amazing hockey machine. It comes down to cultural reasons. USSR's people liked hockey and the USSR supported hockey monetarily. The USSR finds success in hockey. Brazil's people like soccer and Brazil+Brazil's private teams supported soccer monetarily. Brazil finds success in soccer. China's people don't know what they like yet. The people have just started to have have free time because of the recent economical liberalization. China has only started to support soccer monetarily. So it's reasonable to expect that China doesn't play soccer well. They could be better in the future as long as they have the time and culture change it needs. Side note: I don't know why England sucks. The people love it, god awful amounts of money are spent on soccer/football. But thank god they haven't figured it because the world would not hear the end of it...

coatmatter 8y ago
> Side note: I don't know why England sucks. The people love it, god awful amounts of money are spent on soccer/football. But thank god they haven't figured it because the world would not hear the end of it... I wonder if it just comes down to how they practise it and the level of dedication - similar to how this feature alludes in the case of cricket: http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/653673.html http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/653673.ht...

username3 8y ago

Soccer is slow. Soccer takes too long to fail. Expend energy running across the field to take one shot.

amaccuish 8y ago

Is there a reason for the recent china bashing? Seemingly every article about china is finding some new way to criticise it.

petraeus 8y ago

Its simple really, chinese ppl in general dont care about sports let alone hockey, most of my friends have never been to a hockey game, or baseball or a soccer match. Chinese people would rather work and have other hobbies outside of sports. Sports isnt the end all be all. its actually not very important at all in the big scheme, you can get excerise in many other ways and be successful in many different professions.