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You have to dig deeper and ask what makes asking for permission difficult. In an institutional context when we ask for permission from higher ups, especially p

by rdtsc 8y ago

You have to dig deeper and ask what makes asking for permission difficult. In an institutional context when we ask for permission from higher ups, especially publicly, we put them on the spot to clarify some rule or make a pronouncement which rules will be enforced and which won't. Sometimes you have to break rules, or perversely are even expected to, just to get things done. Asking permission means the boss has to tell you that you cannot break the rule officially, even though they know the rule has to be broken for the task to be accomplished. So not only do they deny the permission, they also resent you for forcing them to make the pronouncement and preventing anyone in the near future from accomplishing the task at hand efficiently. In other words even as they respond with "No, Peter, you cannot bypass filling out 10 TPS reports just to fix this bug" in their head they are thinking "Why the fuck didn't you just do it. Why did you have to ask me about it in front of everyone..." Large power structures usually have rules you cannot break, you can break if you want to, and perversely enough, you should or are expected to break. Winning or losing the politics game often comes down to simply understanding which rules belong to each set.

billysielu 8y ago
In my experience, the person you're asking for permission is a middle manager, who will almost certainly see your request as more power for them and less power for you, aka office politics. The minute they give you what you want, you don't need them any more, which is less power for them, so why would they do it? Professionalism? pfft!
- dpark 8y ago
  Are you misusing the term “middle management” to mean the bottom-level managers? Or are you saying that most requests for permission are going 3 levels up? Most requests for permission are probably going to direct managers at the bottom because that’s who most employees report to. I can’t imagine taking every request to my director. He’d ask me why I’m wasting his time and tell me to do my job.
  - billysielu 8y ago
    No I'm not misusing the term. I'm not at the bottom.
gldalmaso 8y ago
Sometimes the asking is not the hard part, communication channels might be open, but decision making is always put on the business perspective which might be a little shortsighted on some regards. Case in point, years ago we used CVS for version control. I had a strong feeling that if I asked to research how could we make the switch to git, it would be allowed but relegated to the back of the backlog, which usually means never to be done. So I did it without asking permission in between tasks, and when I proposed we switch to git I already presented our many dozens of repositories in a git server with the full history preserved. I didn't even need to ask forgiveness.
- nojvek 8y ago
  A lot of things in orgs usually boiling down to someone championing things and just getting it done. Managers are very wary of comming any resources to ground breaking things since they are unproven. I’ve experienced this multiple times. If you feel strongly about something, just go do it!
chii 8y ago
The description you gave is of a dysfunctional organization. If it's expected that a rule is to be broken to get a task done, the risk of the backfiring will be borne by the rule breaker. If i am am employee, i will not risk breaking any rule that i have not gotten in writing from somebody higher up that they're OK'ing. Or, i will have to be paid more for taking on the risk.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
  > The description you gave is of a dysfunctional organization. True but irrelevant. In my experience organizations are just like people in that every single one of them is dysfunctional in some capacity. You find ways to work around the dysfunction when it can't be fixed and life goes on.
- corpMaverick 8y ago
  > The description you gave is of a dysfunctional organization. Totally. But there are many organizations like that. > the risk of the backfiring will be borne by the rule breaker. But the higher up is in a better position to defend him/her. If you ask for permission then both of them are at fault.
PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago
And this then allows for consequences to be enforced not as a result of breaking the rules but as the result of something that would never be tolerated being made into a rule. For example, being more likely to punish people of a certain gender who breaks some arbitrary rule that needs to be broken for work to be done (though not being so much more likely to do so that they could convince a judge). This is why I think the appropriate response in these cases is that everyone should seek permission, regardless of the extent work slows down, and that firing people for doing so should be see as a violation of discrimination at work (because while it is not directly discriminating against protected classes, it enables a rule enforcement system that makes it trivial to discriminate against protected classes).

by rdtsc 8y ago

billysielu 8y ago

In my experience, the person you're asking for permission is a middle manager, who will almost certainly see your request as more power for them and less power for you, aka office politics. The minute they give you what you want, you don't need them any more, which is less power for them, so why would they do it? Professionalism? pfft!

dpark 8y ago
Are you misusing the term “middle management” to mean the bottom-level managers? Or are you saying that most requests for permission are going 3 levels up? Most requests for permission are probably going to direct managers at the bottom because that’s who most employees report to. I can’t imagine taking every request to my director. He’d ask me why I’m wasting his time and tell me to do my job.
- billysielu 8y ago
  No I'm not misusing the term. I'm not at the bottom.

gldalmaso 8y ago

Sometimes the asking is not the hard part, communication channels might be open, but decision making is always put on the business perspective which might be a little shortsighted on some regards. Case in point, years ago we used CVS for version control. I had a strong feeling that if I asked to research how could we make the switch to git, it would be allowed but relegated to the back of the backlog, which usually means never to be done. So I did it without asking permission in between tasks, and when I proposed we switch to git I already presented our many dozens of repositories in a git server with the full history preserved. I didn't even need to ask forgiveness.

nojvek 8y ago
A lot of things in orgs usually boiling down to someone championing things and just getting it done. Managers are very wary of comming any resources to ground breaking things since they are unproven. I’ve experienced this multiple times. If you feel strongly about something, just go do it!

chii 8y ago

The description you gave is of a dysfunctional organization. If it's expected that a rule is to be broken to get a task done, the risk of the backfiring will be borne by the rule breaker. If i am am employee, i will not risk breaking any rule that i have not gotten in writing from somebody higher up that they're OK'ing. Or, i will have to be paid more for taking on the risk.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
> The description you gave is of a dysfunctional organization. True but irrelevant. In my experience organizations are just like people in that every single one of them is dysfunctional in some capacity. You find ways to work around the dysfunction when it can't be fixed and life goes on.
corpMaverick 8y ago
> The description you gave is of a dysfunctional organization. Totally. But there are many organizations like that. > the risk of the backfiring will be borne by the rule breaker. But the higher up is in a better position to defend him/her. If you ask for permission then both of them are at fault.

PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago

And this then allows for consequences to be enforced not as a result of breaking the rules but as the result of something that would never be tolerated being made into a rule. For example, being more likely to punish people of a certain gender who breaks some arbitrary rule that needs to be broken for work to be done (though not being so much more likely to do so that they could convince a judge). This is why I think the appropriate response in these cases is that everyone should seek permission, regardless of the extent work slows down, and that firing people for doing so should be see as a violation of discrimination at work (because while it is not directly discriminating against protected classes, it enables a rule enforcement system that makes it trivial to discriminate against protected classes).