10 ms·

I read a story once where ongoing changes in the timing of salmon runs were (of course) being blamed on climate change by scientists. But then someone who is ac

I read a story once where ongoing changes in the timing of salmon runs were (of course) being blamed on climate change by scientists. But then someone who is actually in the fishing industry pointed out that for ages now we've been artificially selecting out those salmon which run during the "standard window", leaving in their wake mostly survivors who show up a little bit sooner or a little bit later, outside of that window. This person was of course then treated with absolute disdain by the online community which was discussing the issue; he might have even been banned outright for saying that.

gowld 8y ago
Maybe it was met with disdain because it was unsupported speculation? Why would a fishing effect occur over a span of a few recently years, instead of over 100 years of fishing? https://www.worldwildlife.org/stories/sockeye-salmon-and-climate-change https://www.worldwildlife.org/stories/sockeye-salmon-and-cli...
- vivafrance 8y ago
  Most comments in a community are unsupported speculation. Those commenters that parrot popular opinions are rewarded.
  - danharaj 8y ago
    With what? Fake internet points? Some reward, where do I redeem them?
    - ludston 8y ago
      They are redeemed on arrival for a sense of adequacy and belonging.
    - SimbaOnSteroids 8y ago
      Fake internet points are worth a bit of money if you can find a buyer.
      - briandear 8y ago
        Isn’t that what an ICO is?
        SimbaOnSteroids 8y ago
        I was thinking of reddit accounts specifically, accounts with age plus karma can be sold for a non insignificant amount.
    - nostrademons 8y ago
      Why do you post on HN? Would you continue to post if you were shadowbanned or consistently downvoted? Status is a powerful motivator, and you don't even need the points. You just have to feel like people are listening and take what you say seriously.
      - soundwave106 8y ago
        Which is IMHO why the simplistic upvote / downvote / likes / retweet system is one of the major faults of most social networks. It encourages groupthink and tribalism and discourages engagement with other opinions and perspectives. (EG: Don't like an opinion or statement? Just downvote. Don't even try to engage or understand where the other person is coming from.)
      - inopinatus 8y ago
        No-one will lie on their deathbed wishing they'd scored more points in the Internet popularity contests. However, I observed my remarks receiving a hidden downweighting following moderator action some time ago. dang confirmed since that they have a "penalty box" mechanism. I post less frequently as a result, because I think fewer people will see what I have to say.
        TAForObvReasons 8y ago
        Forget hidden. I've noticed that within two minutes of every comment I make, even if they eventually end up positive, I get hit with 3-6 downvotes. Almost as if there's a bot. People have noticed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17274713 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17274713 (dipped down to -5 before eventually settling at the current +7) > This chronic downvoting on HN is getting boring. > Not only that - respected HN citizens need to create new throwaway accounts on order to speak their mind. It's becoming a new normal. That's ridiculous. > it's tiring to express your opinion here and contribute to a conversation only to have it downvoted because it wasn't the right contribution. The problem is that the "penalty box" mechanism doesn't distinguish between unpopular but well-reasoned opinions and offensive behavior. People here, like in many other online forums, are all-too-quick to downvote other opinions. This is particular stark in discussions around characters like Elon Musk, where for years criticisms were downvoted and flagged (and only recently has it become safe to comment negatively on the behaviors of Tesla and Musk)
    - lowpro 8y ago
      Yes, that’s how all major social networks work. Despite everyone knowing it’s dumb, it still works. They don’t mean anything except they do because people feel they mean something.
    - yesenadam 8y ago
      Downvoting you in the hope that more people do that and you will have an answer to your question.
      - yesenadam 8y ago
        Ok thank u downvoters, I shan't waste any more time posting on HN.
    - vivafrance 8y ago
      People who are downvoted get throttled and eventually cant post more than once every hour — thereby insuring the echo chamber becomes even louder.
    - zem 8y ago
      how do you distinguish fake internet points from real internet points?
  - southern_cross 8y ago
    And most "scientific studies" that show up in such communities these days are at best only weakly supported, and may all but fall apart at the first sign of someone trying to validate their data integrity or replicate their results. Given the choice between someone sitting in a lab somewhere, maybe running computer models all day vs. the observations of someone who is pretty much hands-on, out in the field every day (like say a fisherman), who do you think I'm generally going to give the benefit of the doubt to?
- southern_cross 8y ago
  I was referring to a long-term shift in the window, not short-term, oddball behavior as reported here. Natural fluctuations like this aren't really all that unusual and can happen for any number of reasons.
peterashford 8y ago
With respect, people have been coming up with their "common sense" objections to what those high-falutin' scientists have been saying every time one of them says absolutely anything at all. It's "common sense" that Climate Change isn't occurring - or man made. It's "common sense" that we can't effect the health of the oceans - they're just so big. It's also "common sense" that the earth is flat - just look around! It's worthwhile raising and examining alternative hypothesis to explain phenomena but rejecting science out of hand on the basis of folk-knowledge is getting pretty old. Rejecting the science needs a higher bar than anecdotes.
- dpark 8y ago
  Automatically assuming everything negative is caused by climate change is not science. If there is no evidence that salmon are changing spawning due to climate change, then it's just a hypothesis and no more scientific than the hypothesis that fishing is changing spawning. People are as guilty of blindly accepting climate change as the root cause for random things as they are of blindly rejecting it. A thing doesn’t become “scientific” because some group of scientists believes it. I say this as someone who fully believes in man made climate change and its potentially catastrophic implications.
  - southern_cross 8y ago
    Yeah, in my mind it kind of boils down to this. The simpleton's answer to pretty much whatever ails you these days is "climate change". And the simpleton's answer to pretty much anything related to climate change is "CO2". Both of those positions are extraordinarily stupid, IMO, but far too common.
    - scarmig 8y ago
      It's disingenuous to suggest that the simpletons in the climate change debate are those who attribute too much to climate change, when the leading figures of the denialists bring snowballs into the Senate and claim they disprove climate change.
eanzenberg 8y ago
First there are a lot of shitty scientists out there, period. Second, there is a reproducibility crisis in science. Human-caused climate change has been in the public mindset for > 10 years. I don’t think there is much doubt that the earth is warming, and that CO2 among others cause increased global temp. However, here is where myself and others become disconnected with the movement. The adverse effects of climate change are fairly benign out to 50 years and at worse predict 10 ft increase in sea level in 100 years. So either humanity has already decreased output enough (unlikely) or the estimates have updated and long story short, probably doesn’t seem so bad. Definitely not worth the effort of completely revamping global economies.
Karishma1234 8y ago
Thanks for saying this and I am pleasantly surprised dang has not yet blamed you for starting a slugfest yet. :P
slykar 8y ago
That's because those people (online community) are the same stupid as those who believe earth is flat. They are just on a different side of the barricade, praising the story they are more comfortable with. I guess they might think that agreeing with science people automatically makes them smart and critical thinking.
dalbasal 8y ago
It's actually quite funny that we're surpised by such things. In any other case, we'd expect predation to determine behaviour.

gowld 8y ago

Maybe it was met with disdain because it was unsupported speculation? Why would a fishing effect occur over a span of a few recently years, instead of over 100 years of fishing? https://www.worldwildlife.org/stories/sockeye-salmon-and-climate-change https://www.worldwildlife.org/stories/sockeye-salmon-and-cli...

vivafrance 8y ago
Most comments in a community are unsupported speculation. Those commenters that parrot popular opinions are rewarded.
- danharaj 8y ago
  With what? Fake internet points? Some reward, where do I redeem them?
  - ludston 8y ago
    They are redeemed on arrival for a sense of adequacy and belonging.
  - SimbaOnSteroids 8y ago
    Fake internet points are worth a bit of money if you can find a buyer.
    - briandear 8y ago
      Isn’t that what an ICO is?
      - SimbaOnSteroids 8y ago
        I was thinking of reddit accounts specifically, accounts with age plus karma can be sold for a non insignificant amount.
  - nostrademons 8y ago
    Why do you post on HN? Would you continue to post if you were shadowbanned or consistently downvoted? Status is a powerful motivator, and you don't even need the points. You just have to feel like people are listening and take what you say seriously.
    - soundwave106 8y ago
      Which is IMHO why the simplistic upvote / downvote / likes / retweet system is one of the major faults of most social networks. It encourages groupthink and tribalism and discourages engagement with other opinions and perspectives. (EG: Don't like an opinion or statement? Just downvote. Don't even try to engage or understand where the other person is coming from.)
    - inopinatus 8y ago
      No-one will lie on their deathbed wishing they'd scored more points in the Internet popularity contests. However, I observed my remarks receiving a hidden downweighting following moderator action some time ago. dang confirmed since that they have a "penalty box" mechanism. I post less frequently as a result, because I think fewer people will see what I have to say.
      - TAForObvReasons 8y ago
        Forget hidden. I've noticed that within two minutes of every comment I make, even if they eventually end up positive, I get hit with 3-6 downvotes. Almost as if there's a bot. People have noticed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17274713 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17274713 (dipped down to -5 before eventually settling at the current +7) > This chronic downvoting on HN is getting boring. > Not only that - respected HN citizens need to create new throwaway accounts on order to speak their mind. It's becoming a new normal. That's ridiculous. > it's tiring to express your opinion here and contribute to a conversation only to have it downvoted because it wasn't the right contribution. The problem is that the "penalty box" mechanism doesn't distinguish between unpopular but well-reasoned opinions and offensive behavior. People here, like in many other online forums, are all-too-quick to downvote other opinions. This is particular stark in discussions around characters like Elon Musk, where for years criticisms were downvoted and flagged (and only recently has it become safe to comment negatively on the behaviors of Tesla and Musk)
  - lowpro 8y ago
    Yes, that’s how all major social networks work. Despite everyone knowing it’s dumb, it still works. They don’t mean anything except they do because people feel they mean something.
  - yesenadam 8y ago
    Downvoting you in the hope that more people do that and you will have an answer to your question.
    - yesenadam 8y ago
      Ok thank u downvoters, I shan't waste any more time posting on HN.
  - vivafrance 8y ago
    People who are downvoted get throttled and eventually cant post more than once every hour — thereby insuring the echo chamber becomes even louder.
  - zem 8y ago
    how do you distinguish fake internet points from real internet points?
- southern_cross 8y ago
  And most "scientific studies" that show up in such communities these days are at best only weakly supported, and may all but fall apart at the first sign of someone trying to validate their data integrity or replicate their results. Given the choice between someone sitting in a lab somewhere, maybe running computer models all day vs. the observations of someone who is pretty much hands-on, out in the field every day (like say a fisherman), who do you think I'm generally going to give the benefit of the doubt to?
southern_cross 8y ago
I was referring to a long-term shift in the window, not short-term, oddball behavior as reported here. Natural fluctuations like this aren't really all that unusual and can happen for any number of reasons.

peterashford 8y ago

With respect, people have been coming up with their "common sense" objections to what those high-falutin' scientists have been saying every time one of them says absolutely anything at all. It's "common sense" that Climate Change isn't occurring - or man made. It's "common sense" that we can't effect the health of the oceans - they're just so big. It's also "common sense" that the earth is flat - just look around! It's worthwhile raising and examining alternative hypothesis to explain phenomena but rejecting science out of hand on the basis of folk-knowledge is getting pretty old. Rejecting the science needs a higher bar than anecdotes.

dpark 8y ago
Automatically assuming everything negative is caused by climate change is not science. If there is no evidence that salmon are changing spawning due to climate change, then it's just a hypothesis and no more scientific than the hypothesis that fishing is changing spawning. People are as guilty of blindly accepting climate change as the root cause for random things as they are of blindly rejecting it. A thing doesn’t become “scientific” because some group of scientists believes it. I say this as someone who fully believes in man made climate change and its potentially catastrophic implications.
- southern_cross 8y ago
  Yeah, in my mind it kind of boils down to this. The simpleton's answer to pretty much whatever ails you these days is "climate change". And the simpleton's answer to pretty much anything related to climate change is "CO2". Both of those positions are extraordinarily stupid, IMO, but far too common.
  - scarmig 8y ago
    It's disingenuous to suggest that the simpletons in the climate change debate are those who attribute too much to climate change, when the leading figures of the denialists bring snowballs into the Senate and claim they disprove climate change.

eanzenberg 8y ago

First there are a lot of shitty scientists out there, period. Second, there is a reproducibility crisis in science. Human-caused climate change has been in the public mindset for > 10 years. I don’t think there is much doubt that the earth is warming, and that CO2 among others cause increased global temp. However, here is where myself and others become disconnected with the movement. The adverse effects of climate change are fairly benign out to 50 years and at worse predict 10 ft increase in sea level in 100 years. So either humanity has already decreased output enough (unlikely) or the estimates have updated and long story short, probably doesn’t seem so bad. Definitely not worth the effort of completely revamping global economies.

Karishma1234 8y ago

Thanks for saying this and I am pleasantly surprised dang has not yet blamed you for starting a slugfest yet. :P

slykar 8y ago

That's because those people (online community) are the same stupid as those who believe earth is flat. They are just on a different side of the barricade, praising the story they are more comfortable with. I guess they might think that agreeing with science people automatically makes them smart and critical thinking.

dalbasal 8y ago

It's actually quite funny that we're surpised by such things. In any other case, we'd expect predation to determine behaviour.