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Facial Recognition Cameras Do Not Belong in Schools
- baldfat 8y agoAs I work on what an appropriate computer for three to five-year-old children to work in the classroom I have thought of using facial recognition as opposed to login name and password or barcodes. I also would like to see where the students spend their self-select time to help improve the layout of the room and collect data on what students do for the 90 minutes of free choice. Now I can see how everyone would hate both pieces because of other issues and I feel frustrated.
- woolvalley 8y agoEnabling face-id login on student devices is a bit different than facial recognition surveillance. Same with username based app analytics. Apple face id reduces the privacy controversy by addressing how they keep things private, device only and secure while improving your life. Bring that upfront and it might go over better.
- gorpomon 8y agoAbsolutely disgusting, there's really not much more nuance to this. I can't fathom a situation where we want to automate what should be human interactions. Talking with children, in person, where they can learn from their mistakes, is a great way to create long lasting discipline. Sure it's hard work, but if we offload this to computers we're actively removing humanity from the situation.
- fake-name 8y ago> I can't fathom a situation where we want to automate what should be human interactions. I can. When you're a for-profit organization. People are expensive. This is basically late-stage capitalism.
- mschuster91 8y ago> but if we offload this to computers we're actively removing humanity from the situation. This massively reminds me of the "The machine fired me" [0] post from today morning's HN front page. Or, for what it matters, of the inhumanity that currently goes on in the US, with even toddlers being detained (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/tender-age-shelters-trump-border-family-separations_us_5b29d2d0e4b05d6c16c8c122 https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/tender-age-shelters-tru...). Following orders, eh? > I can't fathom a situation where we want to automate what should be human interactions. I can, it's called fascism. Break the individual responsibility of a human down and you can get them to do anything. There is a reason why in firing squads some members always have blank magazines [1] and why in the lethal injection sites a random of the required buttons for delivery will not work[2]. The individual member can try to evade responsibility by thinking "it was my button/gun that had the blanks" (apparently called "Diffusion of responsibility"). I recommend everyone able to do so a visit to Europe and one of the concentration camps the Nazis built. No matter which one, there are more than enough sites to remind us of what humans can do. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17350645 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17350645 (thanks to @larkeith for pointing it out) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_by_firing_squad#Blank_cartridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_by_firing_squad#Blan... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethal_injection#Procedure_in_U.S._executions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethal_injection#Procedure_in_...
- lainga 8y agoAs they say, Mussolini made the trains driverless.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- lockes5hadow 8y agoI can't find the article you mention, "A machine fired me". Do you have a link?
- larkeith 8y ago
- darawk 8y ago> I can't fathom a situation where we want to automate what should be human interactions. Really? You'd rather call the taxi company and make an appointment with a person than use Uber? You'd rather ask a librarian to do your google searches for you?
- tylerhou 8y agoHe said "we shouldn't automate what we shouldn't automate", not "we shouldn't automate anything."
- darawk 8y agoYes, which is a pointless tautology.
- tylerhou 8y agoOkay, but then your response is just as pointless as his tautology.
- darawk 8y agoMy point is that "should be human interactions" is a meaningless standard. The only way it could be meaningful is if it meant "anything that used to involve human interaction, and now doesn't". I was rebutting that interpretation of it, which seemed to me to be what the OP was implying.
- candu 8y agoThey provided a pretty clear example: actually talking to children is important to develop socialization and maturity (read: executive function). This is one area where machines absolutely cannot do the job anywhere near equally well - i.e., something that should involve human interaction.
- darawk 8y ago
- matte_black 8y agoDon't be so hyperbolic. Try to focus on all the good things this kind of technology can do. Kids skipping class, kids beating up other kids, even someone walking in with a weapon: these kinds of things can be detected and handled more efficiently and promptly with a system like this at scale.
- DoreenMichele 8y agoBeing able to ever more efficiently and effectively prove just how bad things are so punishment can be doled out after the fact isn't some means to foster a trusting, trustworthy and civilized environment.
- matte_black 8y agoTrust, but always verify.
- DoreenMichele 8y agoPolicies along the lines of The beatings shall continue until morale improves have a very long track record of failure.
- matte_black 8y agoI know many of you in HN live in perfect idealistic communities, but let me tell you: I went to a shitty school with police coming by everyday and a poor graduation rate. I got the shit beaten out of me more times than I care to remember, for things like "not helping some kid cheat on a test". Nobody cared, and there was no way to prove it anyway. If I said anything it only meant I would get beat up outside of school. I felt unsafe every damn day in high school, and it certainly wasn't because some facial recognition tech was watching my every move. But whatever, keep trusting those kids to eventually behave. Personally, I just hope karma got them in the end.
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
- maroonmed 8y agoIf that's what it takes to stop school shootings, then so be it.
- pavel_lishin 8y agoWhat's the, uh, selling point of this? How is this better than a regular surveillance system?
- chapium 8y agoBudget priorities aside, why is this inappropriate? What problem does it attempt to solve?
- jacquesm 8y agoThey don't really belong anywhere. Not just in schools.
- monetus 8y agoI'm sad this view isn't more common.
- ringbugger 8y agoSeriously. And all the emotional security arguments that cannot be verified by hard evidence. The probability of being a victim of terror against getting in a traffic accident? No, please don't start warterboarding all bus-drivers...
- trumped 8y agolicense plate readers, bluetooth/wifi loggers, etc, are not quite as bad, but they should be regulated in the same way and require warrants for anyone that wish to access that data.
- Someone1234 8y agoThis proposal may be problematic because they seem to want to tie it into other computer systems/databases (e.g. state and federal crime, immigration). There's a lot of paranoia about new technology, but the biggest threat isn't strictly from the technology itself, but our use of the resulting data and how it is disseminated. For example fingerprints for lunch payments/library books isn't inherently problematic, it becomes problematic if the fingerprints are stored beyond the student attending the school or sent to others (who could store it indefinitely or misuse it).
- advisedwang 8y agoThat's basically a "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument.
- AlexB138 8y agoAnd your comment presupposes that's not a valid argument. If you have a counter argument you should make it.
- orwin 8y agoNo easely accessible guns make suicide harder (the success rate of pill or wrist cutting is way lower than the guns) and make passion crimes less deadly. Without accounting misfire and/or lost bullets, crimes are deadlier with a gun than with a knife. That said, i don't really care if you are having a gun in your car or at home, or even carrying one with you if you have sufficient training, it's just for the sake of the argument.
- robbrown451 8y agoHow about a "there are multiple factors at play, let's consider and prioritize all of them appropriately" argument?
- candu 8y agoStoring this data enables a wide range of easily-foreseeable negative consequences, and it sends a clear message that school administrations do not trust their students. In that light, we could very easily see the simple act of storing it in the first place as problematic; we could even see the act of thinking seriously about storing it as problematic. Taking your example, what message does that send to a kid if they need to be fingerprinted just to eat lunch? Sending that message is, IMHO, extremely problematic.
- LexGray 8y agoI can think of a few use cases. Identify when non custodial parents are on campus. When sex offenders are in the area. Identifying drug dealers that target school children. Identifying arsonists, vandals, kids triggering emergency systems. It might even be used to track bullying, tardiness, and absenteeism which is less workload on understaffed teachers. If it was all confined to local systems and access was limited to a few authorized persons it may make parents a lot more comfortable and give them solid data for parenting.
- decebalus1 8y ago> Identify when non custodial parents are on campus Security staff > When sex offenders are in the area Security staff > Identifying drug dealers that target school children. Identifying arsonists, vandals, kids triggering emergency systems. It might even be used to track bullying, tardiness, and absenteeism which is less workload on understaffed teachers. All of these can be solved by not understaffing teachers. > If it was all confined to local systems and access was limited to a few authorized persons it may make parents a lot more comfortable and give them solid data for parenting. What kind of solid data and how exactly would it influence this data-driven parenting? Are we talking A/B testing home packed lunches or getting a god-view of their kids friend circle? I also dream of a world in which I can collect metrics about my kids and their whereabouts to correlate them with how much allowance they get and whether I put gluten in their food or not. Because I didn't have kids, I birthed services/products which need to be optimized for peak performance! I can also think of a good use case. Prepare the future generation for constant surveillance and indoctrinate people in schools that privacy is dead and buried.
- spike021 8y agoNot sure how security staff can solve any of those first two problems. Sure, they might learn to recognize some faces, but if you have even 100 students in a small school, there could be at least 200 parents between bio/non-biological parents. As far as sex offenders, how do you expect a random security officer to know a random individual's face? It just isn't possible. Either way they might need to take a photo of the person to see if they can be found on any threatening lists.
- rhizome 8y agoThey don't belong anywhere, because they don't work.
- quadrangle 8y agoOkay, but once they work near-flawlessly they're okay??
- rhizome 8y agoNo, but that's not likely to happen any time soon, barring revolutionary developments.
- quadrangle 8y agoRight, just please don't set up people to think that if only they fix them to work better that it will be okay! If the main argument is how poorly they work, it will be a short time before they improve and we'll be behind on focusing on the injustice of accurate facial recognition systems in the world.
- rhizome 8y agoIt's not going to be a short time before they improve.
- quadrangle 8y agowhat's a non-short time here? A few years? If it's a decade or two, that's pretty soon still. We're not talking about generations away.
- Havoc 8y agoInclined to disagree with the headline (but not article). Schools are exactly where you want this tech - to keep kids, parents & teacher in and the rest of the public out. Leveraging face tech for that is 100% OK. ...you just can't have that data leak out in any way. i.e. utilize it for access control & true security only.
- jMyles 8y ago> keep kids, parents & teacher in and the rest of the public out. Well, is that really what schools are supposed to be? It seems like schools have an institutional identity which is indistinguishable from a prison or military base. I'm not sure that I want schools to be hermetically sealed from the rest of society. I think I prefer that they be much more open and intermingled with their communities.
- mschuster91 8y ago> Well, is that really what schools are supposed to be? Guess that's the reality in a country with roughly one school shooting a week. As usual for US politics, the fix doesn't even go anywhere near the sources (a lack of gun control). > I think I prefer that they be much more open and intermingled with their communities. Hmm. Honestly I'm not sure how this could be done in a productive way, and that with threats like shooters and pedophiles not even being in scope. Having random quacks peddle kids and their parents with crap like "alternative medicine", anti-vaxx ideology, creationist theory or religious fundamentalism of any kind (no matter if Scientology, hardcore evangelicals or salafist/other radical Islamists) is already a huge problem, no need to further enlarge it. And unlike with guns it's more difficult here to fight the actual problem given the fundamental human right to free speech.
- yellowapple 8y ago"As usual for US politics, the fix doesn't even go anywhere near the sources (a lack of gun control)." The lack of gun control is not the source. The source is people having a desire to kill children in the first place. We can address the specific manifestation of that problem (by enacting tighter controls on how guns may be acquired - something for which I'm very much in favor), but these people can and will find other ways to kill on a large scale (homemade explosives, for example) unless we actually address the mental health issues that are the actual sources.
- poster123 8y agoThe perpetrators of school shootings were often expelled before they went on their sprees. Wouldn't you want technology to recognize the faces of expelled students and other people who do not belong in a school?
- gowld 8y agoCitation needed. Also, How does identifying a shooter via a camera prevent them from discharging their weapon? Are you going to install the cameras on a secure wall at a 1000-feet radius around the school? Attach an automated or drone gun-turret to the camera, _Portal_-style?
- andai 8y agoThere you are.
- AlexandrB 8y ago> Wouldn't you want technology to recognize the faces of expelled students and other people who do not belong in a school? Recognize them and do what? Once they're already in a school with weapons there's not a lot that a facial recognition camera adds to the security story over a regular camera (which even Columbine had in 1999). That's not to mention that equally as often the shooter is still a student at the school.
- bwang29 8y agoI wonder which technology provider was able to convince a school to use a system at 4mm in the first place and how did the negotiation go
- Atreus 8y agoDo not judge their actions by their stated intentions. Assume that their actions satisfy their motives perfectly, and look for the set of motives that predicts the If you do that, of course they do belong in schools, and they will stay in schools, because the US is a post-privacy state, and is staging itself to be as authoritarian as the Chinese "social credit" system. What universe are you living in that you think modern American children want to learn? They don't. They didn't want to learn 40 years ago, or any year since. They don't look at public schools as refuge, or as empowerment. They look at it as a requirement, and sometimes a bit like being in jail for 8-14 hours a day.
- nxc18 8y agoDon't blame it on the kids - blame it on the schools and the culture. Kids don't change, but schools and culture can. Look at other parts of the world (and particularly progressive places in the US) for evidence of this.
- throwawayjava 8y ago> What universe are you living in that you think modern American children want to learn? They don't. That's sad. You should spend time with some different kids. The ones I spend time with have an insatiable appetite for learning new things. Each student is passionate about something different, of course. > They don't look at public schools as refuge, or as empowerment. That seems mostly orthogonal to the question of whether they want to learn and whether they realize that learning can be empowering.
- LeftTurnSignal 8y ago> What universe are you living in that you think modern American children want to learn? They don't. Woof... I know when I worked around the US (mostly midwest) at a different school a week, there were always some kids who wanted to learn. There were always some that didn't. However, they may not have wanted to learn every single thing that the school taught, but they did want to learn about stuff that could be applied to a future career.
- zepto 8y ago
- throw2016 8y agoYou will always find a use for surveillance, and in capitalism there is a natural incentive for those developing these technologies to find all the possible uses and push them aggressively and handwave objections. At this very moment there are thousands of sales people pitching it. But this is where civil society and principles like democracy, liberty and privacy step in to temper the worst impulses and greed. Unfortunately that tempering mechanism is currently nonoperational and anybody with a tag of 'business' with zero interest other than profits can sell any malicious technology and lobby for it. Everything has consequences, and unintended consequences, most of these principles are lessons learned over hundreds of years and it will be tragic to let petty self interest continue to dilute and diminish them.
- paulie_a 8y agoApparently my kids will be wearing hipster glasses with numerous ir leds installed in them
- gremlinsinc 8y agoHow else is the NSA going to start profiling people before adult-hood and build up their facial rec. databases? /s
- John_KZ 8y agoI've never been in the US and stories like this make me imagine it as a bizarre authoritarian dystopia. How are the parents not reacting to this? How is there no law protecting the privacy of workers and children? Why is this not in the front page of a major newspaper? Please do something about this. By the time those technologies trickle down to smaller countries there's very little we can do to counter the external pressure to implement similar "solutions".
- exabrial 8y agoI don't think kids belong in [government run] schools either actually.
- Dowwie 8y agoStop the contract. Split the four million dollars among the teachers.