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I used to wonder why Buddhist monks seemed to do so little productive work despite all the productivity their meditation was supposed to bring. Why aren't they

I used to wonder why Buddhist monks seemed to do so little productive work despite all the productivity their meditation was supposed to bring. Why aren't they generating awesome works of science or philosophy or literature or something with all that clear-headedness? This might explain it.

wudangmonk 8y ago
you can only better understand yourself through meditation, its not a divine state where the secrets of the universe are revealed to you.
- bunnymancer 8y ago
  I think he was being sarcastic...
  - alfredallan1 8y ago
    Maybe. Maybe not. >Why aren't they generating awesome works of science or philosophy or literature or something with all that clear-headedness Maybe they don’t want to? Maybe their motivation is towards intrinsic goals, while science/literature/etc. are all extrinsic. Just because they aren’t doing X doesn’t naturally and obviously mean it is because they cannot do X. e.g. I can readily be a manager, and have more of certain (in)tangible things, but choose not to, because that line of work interests me less than other kinds of work. Just as, by the same token, just because somebody wants to do X doesn’t mean they can do it. e.g. I really want to be a talented rockstar with mad guitar skills, but I cannot becuse I am largely tone deaf.
    - pdpi 8y ago
      > Maybe they don’t want to? Maybe their motivation is towards intrinsic goals, while science/literature/etc. are all extrinsic Douglas Adams comes to mind. “For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.”
    - lopmotr 8y ago
      No doubt they are successful pursuing their intrinsic goals. But the disconnect I saw was between monks who don't work and workers meditating to become more productive. Maybe the meditation is actually the cause of their not working and is harmful for productivity. It might lead you to do as little work as possible, even if you do what you do do really well and feel very personally satisfied.
      - alfredallan1 8y ago
        Whose productivity? The individual’s? If my needs are simple, and easily met by working 2 hours a day, what reason do I have to toil 18 hour days? To enrich someone else? My skills and talents are for me to decide what to do with. What right does someone else have to dictate how much I ought to work?
        lopmotr 8y ago
        I'm thinking of the advice you sometimes hear about meditating so that you'll be better at your job. Maybe it makes you better at your life but not at work.
        alfredallan1 8y ago
        Yes, and it lets you be better at whatever you want to be better at. It also lets you figure out what you really want to be better at, rather than arbitrarily pegging that down to be one's job. And isn’t one’s work really part of one’s life? All it does, really, is put people in a more focussed, balanced state of mind, and shut down much of the incessant internal monologue. Someone focussed is generally better at their job than someone distracted. So as one of the comments mentioned about monks not producing works of art or science - if an artist/scientist really did get into meditation, and if they were innately passionate about their art/science, they would get better at it. But it is presumptous to assume that the average monk wants be do art/science.
aaron695 8y ago
One can't see how taking large parts the young male workforce and making them monks can't hurt a countries GDP greatly. Another consideration around Buddhism is the sense of Karma, and how good things will come to those who deserve them, not those who do the actual work. It's not conducive to productivity. There are high levels of poverty in countries where Buddhism is strong (And other religions that teach Karma style ideas). But I wouldn't have thought it as obvious in people using small amounts of meditation as being a problem. But it's a path to look into that's for sure.
JanisL 8y ago
I think this begs the question: how are you defining productivity?
s-shellfish 8y ago
before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. after enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.
summerdown2 8y ago
You're not wrong about science, but I think you're selling Buddhist monks short if you think none of them generate awesome works of philosophy. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagarjuna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagarjuna and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogen
eeZah7Ux 8y ago
In medieval Japan, Zen produced so many philosophers, poets, writers and painters that some monasteries where almost seen as a places for training to became an artist.
madeuptempacct 8y ago
This is the best post in this thread. Besides the one saying there is absolutely no clear path on how to meditate or what its actually supposed to achieve, despite generic mumbojumbo.
spatular 8y ago
One thing is that monks usually exist inside religious organizations. Religions are highly traditional, do not concern themselves with western science and are slow changing. The other thing is the question of what do they think is worth doing. Imagine a person who's been enlightened. He/she may have been miserable, depressed and suicidal in the past, but now has reached state of no suffering and is completely happy. Very likely goal of such a person is to reduce unneeded suffering of others. The most straightforward way is to help others reach enlightment.

wudangmonk 8y ago

you can only better understand yourself through meditation, its not a divine state where the secrets of the universe are revealed to you.

bunnymancer 8y ago
I think he was being sarcastic...
- alfredallan1 8y ago
  Maybe. Maybe not. >Why aren't they generating awesome works of science or philosophy or literature or something with all that clear-headedness Maybe they don’t want to? Maybe their motivation is towards intrinsic goals, while science/literature/etc. are all extrinsic. Just because they aren’t doing X doesn’t naturally and obviously mean it is because they cannot do X. e.g. I can readily be a manager, and have more of certain (in)tangible things, but choose not to, because that line of work interests me less than other kinds of work. Just as, by the same token, just because somebody wants to do X doesn’t mean they can do it. e.g. I really want to be a talented rockstar with mad guitar skills, but I cannot becuse I am largely tone deaf.
  - pdpi 8y ago
    > Maybe they don’t want to? Maybe their motivation is towards intrinsic goals, while science/literature/etc. are all extrinsic Douglas Adams comes to mind. “For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.”
  - lopmotr 8y ago
    No doubt they are successful pursuing their intrinsic goals. But the disconnect I saw was between monks who don't work and workers meditating to become more productive. Maybe the meditation is actually the cause of their not working and is harmful for productivity. It might lead you to do as little work as possible, even if you do what you do do really well and feel very personally satisfied.
    - alfredallan1 8y ago
      Whose productivity? The individual’s? If my needs are simple, and easily met by working 2 hours a day, what reason do I have to toil 18 hour days? To enrich someone else? My skills and talents are for me to decide what to do with. What right does someone else have to dictate how much I ought to work?
      - lopmotr 8y ago
        I'm thinking of the advice you sometimes hear about meditating so that you'll be better at your job. Maybe it makes you better at your life but not at work.
        alfredallan1 8y ago
        Yes, and it lets you be better at whatever you want to be better at. It also lets you figure out what you really want to be better at, rather than arbitrarily pegging that down to be one's job. And isn’t one’s work really part of one’s life? All it does, really, is put people in a more focussed, balanced state of mind, and shut down much of the incessant internal monologue. Someone focussed is generally better at their job than someone distracted. So as one of the comments mentioned about monks not producing works of art or science - if an artist/scientist really did get into meditation, and if they were innately passionate about their art/science, they would get better at it. But it is presumptous to assume that the average monk wants be do art/science.

aaron695 8y ago

One can't see how taking large parts the young male workforce and making them monks can't hurt a countries GDP greatly. Another consideration around Buddhism is the sense of Karma, and how good things will come to those who deserve them, not those who do the actual work. It's not conducive to productivity. There are high levels of poverty in countries where Buddhism is strong (And other religions that teach Karma style ideas). But I wouldn't have thought it as obvious in people using small amounts of meditation as being a problem. But it's a path to look into that's for sure.

JanisL 8y ago

I think this begs the question: how are you defining productivity?

s-shellfish 8y ago

before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. after enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.

summerdown2 8y ago

You're not wrong about science, but I think you're selling Buddhist monks short if you think none of them generate awesome works of philosophy. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagarjuna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagarjuna and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogen

eeZah7Ux 8y ago

In medieval Japan, Zen produced so many philosophers, poets, writers and painters that some monasteries where almost seen as a places for training to became an artist.

madeuptempacct 8y ago

This is the best post in this thread. Besides the one saying there is absolutely no clear path on how to meditate or what its actually supposed to achieve, despite generic mumbojumbo.

spatular 8y ago

One thing is that monks usually exist inside religious organizations. Religions are highly traditional, do not concern themselves with western science and are slow changing. The other thing is the question of what do they think is worth doing. Imagine a person who's been enlightened. He/she may have been miserable, depressed and suicidal in the past, but now has reached state of no suffering and is completely happy. Very likely goal of such a person is to reduce unneeded suffering of others. The most straightforward way is to help others reach enlightment.