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My understanding is that if a family crosses the border illegally the children are separated from the parents. If instead they stop and the border and request e

by Veelox 8y ago

My understanding is that if a family crosses the border illegally the children are separated from the parents. If instead they stop and the border and request entry then the families get to stay together. It is motivated in part because the US gov got sued for keeping the families together and in part to discourage illegal border crossing by families. 1) Do we disagree on the facts of the matter? 2) Why does entering the US illegally count as a trivial affair? Looks like I cannot reply anymore in this thread. Thanks to alasdair_ and sp332 for civil replies that provide facts to support their views.

Daishiman 8y ago
Entering a country illegally doesn't deny you of basic human rights, unless you're the sort of bigot who wants to disregard the huge amount of jurisdprudence in that matter and who feels it's morally right.
- Veelox 8y ago
  Point of fact, committing an illegal active in the US is grounds for having your children taken away. Committing an illegal activity is not grounds for deprivation of food, water, or shelter. When you make the assertion that "Entering a country illegally doesn't deny you of basic human rights" are you contending that the families should be kept together or that a different basic right is being denied?
  - jjwiseman 8y ago
    It's a misdemeanor immigration offense, according to the ACLU & CNN's legal analyst.
  - Daishiman 8y ago
    You're arguing that separating families for a misdemeanor with nothing else outstanding is morally valid.
  - rosser 8y ago
    How many other misdemeanors result in people's kids being summarily taken away?
  - Analemma_ 8y ago
    Entering the country illegally is a misdemeanor. Do you also think people's kids should be taken away for shoplifting a Twix from a gas station store?
alasdair_ 8y ago
> My understanding is that if a family crosses the border illegally the children are separated from the parents. If instead they stop and the border and request entry then the families get to stay together. This is not the case. Even a family that arrives together and requests asylum will be split up. See (for example) https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/05/us/guatemalan-immigrant-family-separated/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/05/us/guatemalan-immigrant-famil... "After the rest of the family took their chances by presenting themselves to US immigration authorities, the possibility of forced separation became reality. The 20-year-old son was sent to a detention center in San Diego. Maria and her three youngest children were shipped to a family detention center in Dilley, Texas -- about 70 miles southwest of San Antonio." "The two youngest members of the Villatoro family are now at a detention center in New York state while their mom remains detained in Texas." >1) Do we disagree on the facts of the matter? Yes. Your understanding doesn't seem to match the current policy or well-documented effects of said policy. >2) Why does entering the US illegally count as a trivial affair? It's not trivial. The issue is that a four year old child can't meaningfully be held to have committed a crime and so should not be incarcerated. Normally a child will be sent to some kind of foster care if they cannot be with their parents, not taken from their parent and held in a chainlink cage.
- Veelox 8y ago
  Looking at the article in depth I was able to find this quote > Fluharty questions the grounds for the separation of Maria and her children. She said her client walked up to the border and turned herself in to immigration authorities, which contradicts ICE's claim that she was arrested after crossing the border illegally. This is also complicated by the fact that Maria falsely claimed US citizenship and thus is barred from entering the US for life. Do you have a case of someone not barred from entering the US for life has their children separated from them?
sp332 8y ago
Entering the US illegally (the first time) is a misdemeanor, which is a pretty small thing, so previously that wasn't considered a good enough reason to separate families. They were mostly referred to civil deportation proceedings instead of being criminally charged. Entering the US to apply for asylum isn't illegal, but it seems at least some have been charged and their children taken anyway. e.g. https://twitter.com/PeterWelch/status/1008443579876958208 https://twitter.com/PeterWelch/status/1008443579876958208

by Veelox 8y ago

Daishiman 8y ago

Entering a country illegally doesn't deny you of basic human rights, unless you're the sort of bigot who wants to disregard the huge amount of jurisdprudence in that matter and who feels it's morally right.

Veelox 8y ago
Point of fact, committing an illegal active in the US is grounds for having your children taken away. Committing an illegal activity is not grounds for deprivation of food, water, or shelter. When you make the assertion that "Entering a country illegally doesn't deny you of basic human rights" are you contending that the families should be kept together or that a different basic right is being denied?
- jjwiseman 8y ago
  It's a misdemeanor immigration offense, according to the ACLU & CNN's legal analyst.
- Daishiman 8y ago
  You're arguing that separating families for a misdemeanor with nothing else outstanding is morally valid.
- rosser 8y ago
  How many other misdemeanors result in people's kids being summarily taken away?
- Analemma_ 8y ago
  Entering the country illegally is a misdemeanor. Do you also think people's kids should be taken away for shoplifting a Twix from a gas station store?

alasdair_ 8y ago

> My understanding is that if a family crosses the border illegally the children are separated from the parents. If instead they stop and the border and request entry then the families get to stay together. This is not the case. Even a family that arrives together and requests asylum will be split up. See (for example) https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/05/us/guatemalan-immigrant-family-separated/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/05/us/guatemalan-immigrant-famil... "After the rest of the family took their chances by presenting themselves to US immigration authorities, the possibility of forced separation became reality. The 20-year-old son was sent to a detention center in San Diego. Maria and her three youngest children were shipped to a family detention center in Dilley, Texas -- about 70 miles southwest of San Antonio." "The two youngest members of the Villatoro family are now at a detention center in New York state while their mom remains detained in Texas." >1) Do we disagree on the facts of the matter? Yes. Your understanding doesn't seem to match the current policy or well-documented effects of said policy. >2) Why does entering the US illegally count as a trivial affair? It's not trivial. The issue is that a four year old child can't meaningfully be held to have committed a crime and so should not be incarcerated. Normally a child will be sent to some kind of foster care if they cannot be with their parents, not taken from their parent and held in a chainlink cage.

Veelox 8y ago
Looking at the article in depth I was able to find this quote > Fluharty questions the grounds for the separation of Maria and her children. She said her client walked up to the border and turned herself in to immigration authorities, which contradicts ICE's claim that she was arrested after crossing the border illegally. This is also complicated by the fact that Maria falsely claimed US citizenship and thus is barred from entering the US for life. Do you have a case of someone not barred from entering the US for life has their children separated from them?

sp332 8y ago

Entering the US illegally (the first time) is a misdemeanor, which is a pretty small thing, so previously that wasn't considered a good enough reason to separate families. They were mostly referred to civil deportation proceedings instead of being criminally charged. Entering the US to apply for asylum isn't illegal, but it seems at least some have been charged and their children taken anyway. e.g. https://twitter.com/PeterWelch/status/1008443579876958208 https://twitter.com/PeterWelch/status/1008443579876958208