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I know this article is more about tech companies, but China is winning everywhere. They have started a very ambitious OBOR to connect Europe, Africa and Asia. T

I know this article is more about tech companies, but China is winning everywhere. They have started a very ambitious OBOR to connect Europe, Africa and Asia. The Chinese investments in Europe is just mind boggling [0] and the infrastructure projects by the Chinese Govt are spread across the whole Asia, Africa and Europe. Unlike the USA which offers support and aid by offering money to other countries, the Chinese loan tons of money to build infrastructure and it is so much that the small countries will not be able to pay and literally submit to the Chinese. [1] [0] - https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-china-business-in-europe/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-china-business-in-eu... [1] - https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/12/world/asia/sri-lanka-china-port.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/12/world/asia/sri-lanka-chin...

mc32 8y ago
Kind of a United Fruit model of economic investing which resulted in the pejorative banana republic and resulting cries of American Imperialism, and subsequent loss in economic growth as AmCos pulled out due to instability. Wonder if they can avoid a similar fate. Maybe people are wiser on both sides, one can hope.
- mywittyname 8y ago
  My impression is that much of this "instability" was largely the result of American military/intelligence intervention that came in response to the local government seizure and nationalization of these industries.
  - mc32 8y ago
    Superficially maybe. My impression is most of the instability was countries with govts with too weak an effort to transition from an agricultural society to a goods and services centered one, this resulted in an ill advised call for land redistribution and other unrest rather than making education necessary for all kids. Even now many illegal manual labor immigrants to the US lack basic education.
chii 8y ago
> Unlike the USA which offers support and aid by offering money to other countries how is the chinese doing any different than what the USA did/might've done with foreign aid and other strings attached loans? In the end, it's a form of empire building.
- bob_theslob646 8y ago
  The difference is that know the rest of the world is aware of it it whereas in the past, they were not as aware. I know that may not be the answer you want to hear but " image " is huge in China.
- rayiner 8y ago
  That's a breathtakingly ignorant assertion. The "strings attached" to U.S. foreign aid are there to benefit the country being helped, not the U.S. They are things like economic reforms and measures to limit corruption. There is definitely an ideology behind it, and its paternalistic, but it's not empire building. It's more like evangelical Christianity--the belief that we can uplift people not only by giving aid, but by teaching them to live and govern themselves like we do. (Source: my dad spent his career doing USAID work; grew up surrounded by USAID, World Bank, etc., folks.)
  - vthallam 8y ago
    Exactly. The US just hopes the money will be used for the welfare of the country and hoping for some soft power when it's required. On the other hand, the Chinese are just loaning the money and making other countries explicitly owe them.
  - marklgr 8y ago
    No need to call others' opinions ignorant when you have another one. Here's a good book dealing with foreign aids, among other things: https://www.amazon.com/Dictators-Handbook-Behavior-Almost-Politics/dp/1610391845/ https://www.amazon.com/Dictators-Handbook-Behavior-Almost-Po...
    - 8y ago
KKKKkkkk1 8y ago
So China is winning by giving out loans that will never be paid back?
- mistermann 8y ago
  Yes, because they take assets in lieu of payment. You don't get from 3rd world country to challenging the world super power in 20 years by being dumb. On a related tangent, if you don't mind - I'm trying to test my "tone detector" - it indicated sarcasm in your comment, as if the comment to which you were replying was not just wrong but dumb - how accurate was I?
  - portpecos 8y ago
    This is exactly what happened with the Hambantota Port. Sri Lanka asked for billions in loans from China to build a second port in Hambantota, Sri Lanka. After it was built, the naval port didn’t get any shipping/cargo traffic so Sri Lanka couldn’t pay back the Billions. China offered to refinance the loan, how? Sri Lanka turned over control of the port to the Chinese Government under a lease of 100 years and Sri Lanka gets to pay a lower amount on the loan. Now US Intelligence are seeing an uptick in Chinese Navy Warships patrolling the Indian Ocean and fears about Hambantota turning into a Chinese Military Port. This is being called the String of Pearls Theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_of_Pearls_(Indian_Ocean) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_of_Pearls_(Indian_Ocean... The model has already happened in Djibouti, where a Chinese Military Port is currently operational. US Generals have voiced their concern: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-djibouti/significant-consequences-if-china-takes-key-port-in-djibouti-u-s-general-idUSKCN1GI2V0 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-djibouti/signif...
    - mistermann 8y ago
      Exactly. It's odd how some people can clearly see (and acknowledge) these things, while others seem literally unable to see them, almost as if they have some sort of a psychological filter hiding portions of the full spectrum of reality. I wonder if I suffer from the same thing, but different portions of the spectrum. I find it an interesting and useful way in which to observe the world and disagreements between people.

mc32 8y ago

Kind of a United Fruit model of economic investing which resulted in the pejorative banana republic and resulting cries of American Imperialism, and subsequent loss in economic growth as AmCos pulled out due to instability. Wonder if they can avoid a similar fate. Maybe people are wiser on both sides, one can hope.

mywittyname 8y ago
My impression is that much of this "instability" was largely the result of American military/intelligence intervention that came in response to the local government seizure and nationalization of these industries.
- mc32 8y ago
  Superficially maybe. My impression is most of the instability was countries with govts with too weak an effort to transition from an agricultural society to a goods and services centered one, this resulted in an ill advised call for land redistribution and other unrest rather than making education necessary for all kids. Even now many illegal manual labor immigrants to the US lack basic education.

chii 8y ago

> Unlike the USA which offers support and aid by offering money to other countries how is the chinese doing any different than what the USA did/might've done with foreign aid and other strings attached loans? In the end, it's a form of empire building.

bob_theslob646 8y ago
The difference is that know the rest of the world is aware of it it whereas in the past, they were not as aware. I know that may not be the answer you want to hear but " image " is huge in China.
rayiner 8y ago
That's a breathtakingly ignorant assertion. The "strings attached" to U.S. foreign aid are there to benefit the country being helped, not the U.S. They are things like economic reforms and measures to limit corruption. There is definitely an ideology behind it, and its paternalistic, but it's not empire building. It's more like evangelical Christianity--the belief that we can uplift people not only by giving aid, but by teaching them to live and govern themselves like we do. (Source: my dad spent his career doing USAID work; grew up surrounded by USAID, World Bank, etc., folks.)
- vthallam 8y ago
  Exactly. The US just hopes the money will be used for the welfare of the country and hoping for some soft power when it's required. On the other hand, the Chinese are just loaning the money and making other countries explicitly owe them.
- marklgr 8y ago
  No need to call others' opinions ignorant when you have another one. Here's a good book dealing with foreign aids, among other things: https://www.amazon.com/Dictators-Handbook-Behavior-Almost-Politics/dp/1610391845/ https://www.amazon.com/Dictators-Handbook-Behavior-Almost-Po...
  - 8y ago

KKKKkkkk1 8y ago

So China is winning by giving out loans that will never be paid back?

mistermann 8y ago
Yes, because they take assets in lieu of payment. You don't get from 3rd world country to challenging the world super power in 20 years by being dumb. On a related tangent, if you don't mind - I'm trying to test my "tone detector" - it indicated sarcasm in your comment, as if the comment to which you were replying was not just wrong but dumb - how accurate was I?
- portpecos 8y ago
  This is exactly what happened with the Hambantota Port. Sri Lanka asked for billions in loans from China to build a second port in Hambantota, Sri Lanka. After it was built, the naval port didn’t get any shipping/cargo traffic so Sri Lanka couldn’t pay back the Billions. China offered to refinance the loan, how? Sri Lanka turned over control of the port to the Chinese Government under a lease of 100 years and Sri Lanka gets to pay a lower amount on the loan. Now US Intelligence are seeing an uptick in Chinese Navy Warships patrolling the Indian Ocean and fears about Hambantota turning into a Chinese Military Port. This is being called the String of Pearls Theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_of_Pearls_(Indian_Ocean) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_of_Pearls_(Indian_Ocean... The model has already happened in Djibouti, where a Chinese Military Port is currently operational. US Generals have voiced their concern: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-djibouti/significant-consequences-if-china-takes-key-port-in-djibouti-u-s-general-idUSKCN1GI2V0 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-djibouti/signif...
  - mistermann 8y ago
    Exactly. It's odd how some people can clearly see (and acknowledge) these things, while others seem literally unable to see them, almost as if they have some sort of a psychological filter hiding portions of the full spectrum of reality. I wonder if I suffer from the same thing, but different portions of the spectrum. I find it an interesting and useful way in which to observe the world and disagreements between people.