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This is more about Woodrow Wilson, than Debs. Wilson, like many progressives, thought that you should never let things like the constitution get in the way of

This is more about Woodrow Wilson, than Debs. Wilson, like many progressives, thought that you should never let things like the constitution get in the way of doing "good". His version of "good" was that he was a massive racist. Among other things, he resegregated the federal government, ending the careers of many who were not white. He also did not like freedom of speech or the press. He prevented magazines and newspapers he disagreed with from going through the mail. Nice piece of work.

adrianratnapala 8y ago
All of the above insults are true; but it's not about Wilson being some kind of two-headed monster. As an internationalist, and an idealist, he has quite been seen as a hero as well. So it's not about one man at all. It's about ends-vs.-means and the importance of respecting inconvenient rights.
seanmcdirmid 8y ago
How can you claim Wilson was a progressive when he clearly acted like a reactionary? He in fact won against the progressive party in 1912 (against Roosevelt and others), and ushered in the end of the progressive era.
- ameister14 8y ago
  He created the FTC, instituted major banking reform and created the Fed as well as instituted a graduated income tax. He made child labor illegal and signed into law an 8 hour work day. He created the League of Nations. Most people consider him a progressive.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    It just shows that framing the world as liberal/conservative , left/right, capitalist/socialist and expecting people to fall neatly and consistently into on of these camps is a stupid thing. People are much more complex and their actions in one area often don't reflect what they do in another. For example, there are probably racist environmentalists and racists who protect the environment which is something that shouldn't exist if you follow the usual beliefs about environmentalists or racists.
    - everybodyknows 8y ago
      Indeed. Here's a condemnation of Wilson from a different perspective, one emanating from distrust of government power. Might be called "radical conservatism", in the original first senses of those words rather than as found in the political jargon of today's headlines: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-best-way-to-tell-if-someone-is-a-conservative/2018/05/25/fdc5a1fa-5f83-11e8-a4a4-c070ef53f315_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-best-way-to-tell-...
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    Nixon started the EPA, and I’m pretty sure we don’t call him a liberal environmentalist.
  - gopher_protocol 8y ago
    He also styled himself as a progressive, and was largely supported by progressives. He specifically took rhetoric from the Progressive Party platform. Donald Trump bears little resemblance to Reagan or Lincoln, but he is still a Republican. Wilson, likewise, was a progressive - even if he did other things we might consider anti-progressive. The definition of progressivism, like Republicanism (and conservatism, and liberalism), has also changed significantly in the last century. Prohibition of alcohol, for example, was a central plank of most progressives of Woodrow's era, but it is not considered such now. Likewise, opposition to racial inequality is often associated with modern progressivism, but it was not so explicitly supported by many early progressives.
astronautjones 8y ago
> This is more about Woodrow Wilson, than Debs. Wilson, like many progressives, thought that you should never let things like the constitution get in the way of doing "good". as opposed to conservatives? this is a disingenuous and useless distinction
stevenwoo 8y ago
Woodrow Wilson helped start the 20th century version of the Klu Klux Klan and re instituted segregation in the federal government. That does not sound very progressive, Helen Keller was his contemporary and she was against those things and for Eugene Debs and workers' rights and women's rights.
- ameister14 8y ago
  Yes, those parts weren't very progressive. Wilsonian Progressive reform, which is one of the things he's most famous for (and creating the League of Nations) was pretty progressive, though. It's why he's historically known as a progressive.
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
>you should never let things like the constitution get in the way of doing "good". Protip: If it's really that "good" you won't need to make an end run around the constitution to get it done.

adrianratnapala 8y ago

All of the above insults are true; but it's not about Wilson being some kind of two-headed monster. As an internationalist, and an idealist, he has quite been seen as a hero as well. So it's not about one man at all. It's about ends-vs.-means and the importance of respecting inconvenient rights.

seanmcdirmid 8y ago

How can you claim Wilson was a progressive when he clearly acted like a reactionary? He in fact won against the progressive party in 1912 (against Roosevelt and others), and ushered in the end of the progressive era.

ameister14 8y ago
He created the FTC, instituted major banking reform and created the Fed as well as instituted a graduated income tax. He made child labor illegal and signed into law an 8 hour work day. He created the League of Nations. Most people consider him a progressive.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  It just shows that framing the world as liberal/conservative , left/right, capitalist/socialist and expecting people to fall neatly and consistently into on of these camps is a stupid thing. People are much more complex and their actions in one area often don't reflect what they do in another. For example, there are probably racist environmentalists and racists who protect the environment which is something that shouldn't exist if you follow the usual beliefs about environmentalists or racists.
  - everybodyknows 8y ago
    Indeed. Here's a condemnation of Wilson from a different perspective, one emanating from distrust of government power. Might be called "radical conservatism", in the original first senses of those words rather than as found in the political jargon of today's headlines: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-best-way-to-tell-if-someone-is-a-conservative/2018/05/25/fdc5a1fa-5f83-11e8-a4a4-c070ef53f315_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-best-way-to-tell-...
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  Nixon started the EPA, and I’m pretty sure we don’t call him a liberal environmentalist.
- gopher_protocol 8y ago
  He also styled himself as a progressive, and was largely supported by progressives. He specifically took rhetoric from the Progressive Party platform. Donald Trump bears little resemblance to Reagan or Lincoln, but he is still a Republican. Wilson, likewise, was a progressive - even if he did other things we might consider anti-progressive. The definition of progressivism, like Republicanism (and conservatism, and liberalism), has also changed significantly in the last century. Prohibition of alcohol, for example, was a central plank of most progressives of Woodrow's era, but it is not considered such now. Likewise, opposition to racial inequality is often associated with modern progressivism, but it was not so explicitly supported by many early progressives.

astronautjones 8y ago

> This is more about Woodrow Wilson, than Debs. Wilson, like many progressives, thought that you should never let things like the constitution get in the way of doing "good". as opposed to conservatives? this is a disingenuous and useless distinction

stevenwoo 8y ago

Woodrow Wilson helped start the 20th century version of the Klu Klux Klan and re instituted segregation in the federal government. That does not sound very progressive, Helen Keller was his contemporary and she was against those things and for Eugene Debs and workers' rights and women's rights.

ameister14 8y ago
Yes, those parts weren't very progressive. Wilsonian Progressive reform, which is one of the things he's most famous for (and creating the League of Nations) was pretty progressive, though. It's why he's historically known as a progressive.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

>you should never let things like the constitution get in the way of doing "good". Protip: If it's really that "good" you won't need to make an end run around the constitution to get it done.