5 ms·

How is LibreOffice being stuck in the 1990s a problem? MS Office was essentially feature-complete by Office 95, and LibreOffice does everything Office 95 does.

by mrob 8y ago

How is LibreOffice being stuck in the 1990s a problem? MS Office was essentially feature-complete by Office 95, and LibreOffice does everything Office 95 does. It seems all the major changes since then (Clippy, Adaptive Menus, Ribbon Menus) have no value to experienced users.

tyfon 8y ago
I second this, Office has become less and less usable over the years. They keep hiding features and menu items that I use and constantly move around what is not hidden. Libreoffice is a breath of fresh air for me to use. The only thing they have improved in the newer office is the intruduction of 64 bit excel so I can do large (100x100+) matrix operations without external plugins.
- slavik81 8y ago
  Most of LibreOffice is pretty good, but Impress is awful. Last month I put together a presentation. I wanted three slides with a few bullet points and a handful of images, but I gave up on Impress after encountering multiple different show-stopping bugs. The only good thing I can say about Impress is that every time it crashed, it successfully restored my editing state when I started it up again. I don't think anyone cares about that beast enough to maintain it properly. It should just be scrapped and its resources directed towards Calc and Writer
veddox 8y ago
LibreOffice is a pain if you want to do anything that looks remotely attractive. MS Office, unfortunately, wins hands down at that (and at general usability and power). Being unable to use MS Office was one of my big regrets of working on Linux for a long time. When I finally learnt LaTeX, that at least removed the need for Word ;-) (Although I still miss PowerPoint, LO Impress really doesn't impress me very much at all.)
- frostburg 8y ago
  How do you feel about the Beamer class for LaTeX? I suspect it's better than Impress (I strive to not actually prepare slideshows in life, but I don't always manage to).
  - veddox 8y ago
    I've dipped into it, but haven't had the opportunity to do much with it yet. My impression is that it's fantastic for preparing academic presentations (where it's all about the content and you want to be able to create some decent equations), but not necessarily what I would use to create a fancy product pitch or anything like that.
  - mehrdadn 8y ago
    Beamer is nice if you have a few weeks on your hands to spare. :P If you need to throw together a presentation for 3 days from now and you don't already know exactly what it should look like I wouldn't recommend it.
    - flukus 8y ago
      I rarely have to do presentations and know little of latex but gave beamer a try recently when I had a presentation to do. It's very simple syntax and I learned nearly everything I needed in a couple of hours. The last time I used powerpoint (several years ago) I found the learning curve much higher and even after I started getting the hang of things had to keep fighting it for stuff like code snippets. Throw in a makefile with an inotifywait watcher and you've got a WYSIWYG interface.
- Samon 8y ago
  Give WPS Office a go on Linux... it's been the most similar to MS Office I've found (in terms of both file format and UI).
- JanisL 8y ago
  I find that remarkjs (https://github.com/gnab/remark https://github.com/gnab/remark) has removed a big class of situations where I previously needed PowerPoint.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - IshKebab 8y ago
    And has the advantage that videos actually work reliably.
    - JanisL 8y ago
      This is an important point and a really big advantage as I've painfully found out over the years when videos have not worked as intended.
veddox 8y ago
> have no value to experienced users That's precisely his point: Experienced users deal well with open-source software, because much of that was designed with them in mind. But in all too many cases, it doesn't play well with pretty much everybody else.
- mrob 8y ago
  But office software is typically used in offices, and considering the enormous productivity gains from using it correctly, it makes sense for employers to either hire experienced users, or to train their inexperienced users. Tweaking the interface might help beginners feel more comfortable, but it won't make them work anywhere near as effectively as somebody who actually knows what they're doing.
- mehrdadn 8y ago
  > That's precisely his point: Experienced users deal well with open-source software, because much of that was designed with them in mind. I'd call myself experienced but I could never use Open/LibreOffice. It wasn't just the UI; they just couldn't even open MS Office documents without destroying half of their layouts.
  - ams6110 8y ago
    When did you last try it? That certainly was the case 10 years ago or so, but current versions of Libre office at least in my experience, do pretty well with Microsoft Word layouts. My other observation was that a lot of the "formatting" that I see in office documents is unnecessary and only there because the software makes it easy.
    - mehrdadn 8y ago
      > When did you last try it? That certainly was the case 10 years ago or so I tried it 5 minutes ago. Here's an example: https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1YHaKdXh2olSeVdX8ybhF1SG6fyDmDQV0 https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1YHaKdXh2olSeVdX8ybhF1SG6fyDm...
jacquesm 8y ago
I'd argue they have negative value to experienced users.
- veddox 8y ago
  I know plenty of professionals who work wonders with MS Office and who love working with it. Calling them all "unexperienced users" strikes me as pretty opinionated. Just because I would rather solve the task with R instead of Excel doesn't make me a more experienced user, it simply makes me an experienced open-source user rather than an experienced Microsoft user.
mehrdadn 8y ago
> MS Office was essentially feature-complete by Office 95 Were Excel data tables the same before 2007 (or was it 2010)? Right now they're very easy to use but not sure about earlier.
ksk 8y ago
>MS Office was essentially feature-complete by Office 95, Sorry but that comes across as a bit ignorant in my opinion. It seems to me you have never studied how non-programmer powerusers use excel/word/powerpoint. People are running their entire businesses on excel macros/ms access/and other cobbled-together systems. Heck, I don't think you could even do pivot tables till office 2007. That rules out a large chunk of the financial industry.

by mrob 8y ago

tyfon 8y ago

I second this, Office has become less and less usable over the years. They keep hiding features and menu items that I use and constantly move around what is not hidden. Libreoffice is a breath of fresh air for me to use. The only thing they have improved in the newer office is the intruduction of 64 bit excel so I can do large (100x100+) matrix operations without external plugins.

slavik81 8y ago
Most of LibreOffice is pretty good, but Impress is awful. Last month I put together a presentation. I wanted three slides with a few bullet points and a handful of images, but I gave up on Impress after encountering multiple different show-stopping bugs. The only good thing I can say about Impress is that every time it crashed, it successfully restored my editing state when I started it up again. I don't think anyone cares about that beast enough to maintain it properly. It should just be scrapped and its resources directed towards Calc and Writer

veddox 8y ago

LibreOffice is a pain if you want to do anything that looks remotely attractive. MS Office, unfortunately, wins hands down at that (and at general usability and power). Being unable to use MS Office was one of my big regrets of working on Linux for a long time. When I finally learnt LaTeX, that at least removed the need for Word ;-) (Although I still miss PowerPoint, LO Impress really doesn't impress me very much at all.)

frostburg 8y ago
How do you feel about the Beamer class for LaTeX? I suspect it's better than Impress (I strive to not actually prepare slideshows in life, but I don't always manage to).
- veddox 8y ago
  I've dipped into it, but haven't had the opportunity to do much with it yet. My impression is that it's fantastic for preparing academic presentations (where it's all about the content and you want to be able to create some decent equations), but not necessarily what I would use to create a fancy product pitch or anything like that.
- mehrdadn 8y ago
  Beamer is nice if you have a few weeks on your hands to spare. :P If you need to throw together a presentation for 3 days from now and you don't already know exactly what it should look like I wouldn't recommend it.
  - flukus 8y ago
    I rarely have to do presentations and know little of latex but gave beamer a try recently when I had a presentation to do. It's very simple syntax and I learned nearly everything I needed in a couple of hours. The last time I used powerpoint (several years ago) I found the learning curve much higher and even after I started getting the hang of things had to keep fighting it for stuff like code snippets. Throw in a makefile with an inotifywait watcher and you've got a WYSIWYG interface.
Samon 8y ago
Give WPS Office a go on Linux... it's been the most similar to MS Office I've found (in terms of both file format and UI).
JanisL 8y ago
I find that remarkjs (https://github.com/gnab/remark https://github.com/gnab/remark) has removed a big class of situations where I previously needed PowerPoint.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- IshKebab 8y ago
  And has the advantage that videos actually work reliably.
  - JanisL 8y ago
    This is an important point and a really big advantage as I've painfully found out over the years when videos have not worked as intended.

veddox 8y ago

> have no value to experienced users That's precisely his point: Experienced users deal well with open-source software, because much of that was designed with them in mind. But in all too many cases, it doesn't play well with pretty much everybody else.

mrob 8y ago
But office software is typically used in offices, and considering the enormous productivity gains from using it correctly, it makes sense for employers to either hire experienced users, or to train their inexperienced users. Tweaking the interface might help beginners feel more comfortable, but it won't make them work anywhere near as effectively as somebody who actually knows what they're doing.
mehrdadn 8y ago
> That's precisely his point: Experienced users deal well with open-source software, because much of that was designed with them in mind. I'd call myself experienced but I could never use Open/LibreOffice. It wasn't just the UI; they just couldn't even open MS Office documents without destroying half of their layouts.
- ams6110 8y ago
  When did you last try it? That certainly was the case 10 years ago or so, but current versions of Libre office at least in my experience, do pretty well with Microsoft Word layouts. My other observation was that a lot of the "formatting" that I see in office documents is unnecessary and only there because the software makes it easy.
  - mehrdadn 8y ago
    > When did you last try it? That certainly was the case 10 years ago or so I tried it 5 minutes ago. Here's an example: https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1YHaKdXh2olSeVdX8ybhF1SG6fyDmDQV0 https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1YHaKdXh2olSeVdX8ybhF1SG6fyDm...

jacquesm 8y ago

I'd argue they have negative value to experienced users.

veddox 8y ago
I know plenty of professionals who work wonders with MS Office and who love working with it. Calling them all "unexperienced users" strikes me as pretty opinionated. Just because I would rather solve the task with R instead of Excel doesn't make me a more experienced user, it simply makes me an experienced open-source user rather than an experienced Microsoft user.

mehrdadn 8y ago

> MS Office was essentially feature-complete by Office 95 Were Excel data tables the same before 2007 (or was it 2010)? Right now they're very easy to use but not sure about earlier.

ksk 8y ago

>MS Office was essentially feature-complete by Office 95, Sorry but that comes across as a bit ignorant in my opinion. It seems to me you have never studied how non-programmer powerusers use excel/word/powerpoint. People are running their entire businesses on excel macros/ms access/and other cobbled-together systems. Heck, I don't think you could even do pivot tables till office 2007. That rules out a large chunk of the financial industry.