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If Amazon ever faces a reckoning or crisis of some kind, it will because their marketplace product is totally out of control. Sellers have completely gamed sear

If Amazon ever faces a reckoning or crisis of some kind, it will because their marketplace product is totally out of control. Sellers have completely gamed search, ratings, reviews, everything and Amazon, by design, makes it really hard to tell if you're buying something "shipped and sold by Amazon" vs some other shady seller whose products are only being fulfilled by Amazon. I would say I'm more dissatisfied with things I buy from Amazon than almost any other merchant, and now I only buy things on Amazon if it's 1) either sold directly by Amazon (which is increasingly hard to find) or 2) really cheap and where questionable quality is not a concern. Egregious example: Type in "wireless headphones" and the top results look like what you'd find on a corner in Chinatown than a legitimate electronics store.

p49k 8y ago
Even items “shipped and sold by amazon” can often be counterfeit. Below is one example, but I’ve also read on HN of someone receiving a dangerous fake Apple adapter that was “sold and shipped by Amazon”, and I have personally bought shampoo from Amazon that I’m pretty certain was counterfeit. http://www.thefashionlaw.com/home/amazon-is-tricking-consumers-with-its-ships-from-and-sold-by-amazon-label-per-new-suit http://www.thefashionlaw.com/home/amazon-is-tricking-consume...
- bapbap 8y ago
  I've wondered if Amazon co-locates its own stock with that of Fulfillment By Amazon stock which would mean you could end up with anything as long as it looks similar and has the same SKU.
  - inapis 8y ago
    This is exactly what happens. Items from different sellers are mixed together and then randomly dispatched by Amazon under their own name.
    - bapbap 8y ago
      Ah, it makes sense to do so but I'd imagine this practice would affect consumer confidence in Sold by Amazon options given time.
      - skellera 8y ago
        It already is. As you can see by everyone here talking about it, it's beginning to cost them sales. I imagine there will be a big campaign by Amazon in some years from now about them "trying" to fix this problem.
    - coaxial 8y ago
      This is the reason why I quit buying anything from Amazon anymore if I can help it. They're not interested in fixing it. What I can't understand is this: even if they comingle, they must know which seller owns which item. If they didn't, how would they pay the right seller once a particular item is sold? And yet, there seems to be no accountability at all.
      - jjeaff 8y ago
        They don't need to know which product belongs to which seller, they only need to know how many. If someone clicks your listing and buys a product, they ship it from the commingled inventory and then pay you your share of the sale and deduct one from your inventory tally. Then, if the item they sent ends up being counterfeit, whether from your own stock, from another seller, or even from Amazon's own stock, they will take it out on your seller account for selling counterfeits.
        coaxial 8y ago
        So then how do they decide which of the comingled sellers got the sale? Round Robin? Random?
        bchallenor 8y ago
        The customer still ordered via the listing of a specific vendor, even if Amazon shipped from co-mingled stock.
  - usrusr 8y ago
    Probably because someone who has fulfilment speed as their bonus metric keeps prevailing over those with return rate as their bonus metric.
- dahdum 8y ago
  Absolutely true, bought an item sold and shipped from Amazon and received a broken counterfeit. They only let me return and would not replace with a real one, probably because they have no idea what they are selling anymore due to inventory mixing.
  - staticautomatic 8y ago
    Amazon's "inventory mixing" situation seems strikingly similar to the mixing problems in the commercial meat production industry [often identified as a significant factor in contamination investigations].
- Fej 8y ago
  Have any other retailers (especially those with similar "marketplaces" like Walmart and Newegg) implemented the commingling idea?
- skellera 8y ago
  This was happening with Ziess lens cleaners which is a HUGE deal because counterfeit lens cleaners don't use isopropyl alcohol to clean. They use ammonia (like windex) which destroys lens coatings. At least stores like Walmart (not counting their online which is a marketplace like Amazon) vet the in-store products.
- rladd 8y ago
  Even genuine goods sold by Amazon can be problematic. I bought a consumer-grade router sold by Amazon, and what arrived was an obsolete version that had not been produced for 4 years. They did accept it back though.
googaaplmsft 8y ago
> Sellers have completely gamed search, ratings, reviews, everything and Amazon, by design, makes it really hard to tell if you're buying something "shipped and sold by Amazon" vs some other shady seller whose products are only being fulfilled by Amazon I have to disagree with you on that. I've personally not had an issue seeing who the seller is, and to double check I went to Amazon, clicked on the very first thing, a moon lamp, and it clearly stated right under in-stock, who it was sold by and that it was being fulfilled by Amazon.
- dawhizkid 8y ago
  My point is the UI/UX for Amazon vs marketplace sellers is the same, and most customers are not as savvy or diligent as you or I to read the one line on the page that tells you the seller is Amazon or not. The fact that you even have to be that careful is a bad customer experience.
  - googaaplmsft 8y ago
    As far as UI/UX design is concerned, I'm kind of surprised Amazon doesn't favor themselves more. Though I guess in their mind any customer going through them is still a sale. Regardless, would a business want to sell on Amazon if they were treated second? > The fact that you even have to be that careful is a bad customer experience. This we can agree on, ideally Amazon would go through some evaluation process to determine that a seller is legitimate. Instead as far as I know they just let user reviews decide. Side note though, Amazon really needs some competition. I can't recall the last time I bought anything online (that needed to be shipped) that wasn't through Amazon. For example, I used to buy computer parts from sites like Newegg, but unless there's a particularly good deal I'm probably going to Amazon. Clothing? Amazon. I don't want to have Levis and Hanes shipped separately. Amazon is the Walmart of online retailers.
    - jstarfish 8y ago
      Amazon does have competition though. Ebay Stores have been around forever, and Walmart and others have now also entered the third-party marketplace game. But you can buy the same questionable goods they all peddle by buying directly from Alibaba and saving yourself the reseller markup. Shipping just takes longer.
Exuma 8y ago
https://www.fakespot.com/ https://www.fakespot.com/
- inapis 8y ago
  This only solves the problem somewhat. It’s accurate 80% of the time in my country but I shudder to think what would happen when it becomes really prominent.
oldcynic 8y ago
You can only trust "shipped and sold by Amazon" if you can be certain they are not using inventory co-mingling. Basically everyone's inventory for the same product are thrown into the same warehouse storage bin, so when you buy the item it's a lucky dip as to whose product is picked and put in the parcel. If another merchant is offering the same item on the listing I don't think it's possible to be certain. Does anyone know a way to be sure?
- CodeWriter23 8y ago
  Actually co-mingling in the same warehouse bin is of little to no benefit to Amazon. The benefit is derived by having the same item in different bins, which are in geographically diverse warehouse locations. Amazon saves big bucks by shipping from the most cost effective location in relation to the customer.
  - oldcynic 8y ago
    As far as ordering is concerned they are the same. How Amazon handle within a warehouse or across multiple doesn't change the effect to consumers: If FakeCo send 200 fake headphones to Amazon, co mingle, and Amazon have 800 genuine headphones: 80% of purchases from both Amazon and FakeCo will be genuine, and 20% fake. Amazon is effectively subsidising the counterfeiter and encourages legitimately good reviews for an entirely fraudulent supplier! If they're allocated to different warehouses then chances of fake may vary by which warehouse is nearest. In aggregate the effect is the same. It's no wonder reviews are so often such a confusing and contradictory mess.
  - petra 8y ago
    It's not about cheaper shipping - but also faster shipping. And where would Amazon be without faster shipping than their competitors ?
AJ007 8y ago
It’s the dangerous products that concern me more than the counterfeit ones. I’m more lenient than you, but yes there are huge category groups I won’t even bother trying to buy on Amazon. That list has been increasing, not shrinking. I still buy a lot from Amazon, but it’s probably more attributable to not going to physical retailers. This has made me more bullish about non-Amazon e-commerce.
- extralego 8y ago
  What examples of ‘dangerous items’ come to mind? (Not to suggest the list is short by any means. I’m just curious.) As an American company, and with so much power, and with the issue being so dispersed and untraceable, I imagine safety is not sufficient cause for regulation.
  - dawhizkid 8y ago
    Baby formula is a classic one. Electronics with flammable batteries.
  - ridgeguy 8y ago
    Counterfeit nutritional supplements. No way to tell what's really in them. Edited for clarity
    - Shikadi 8y ago
      That's true in grocery stores too though
      - woobar 8y ago
        What grocery store let random people stock their shelves?
        zrobotics 8y ago
        There is no oversight of supplements (at least in the US). You just have to trust the brand, because legally there's nothing stopping a supplement manufacturer from using entirely different ingredients from what is claimed.
extralego 8y ago
In addition to the issues mentioned above, I cancelled Prime when returns of Marketplace items started being handled by the merchants instead of Amazon, meaning the customer handles the return shipping cost, even for faulty or misrepresented products, and the merchant is ground zero for customer service.
- jjeaff 8y ago
  You may have to demand it, but I have never had to pay return shipping for a defective item on Amazon whether direct to Amazon or to a 3rd party. And I have purchased an unbelievable amount of stuff from Amazon.
  - extralego 8y ago
    I expect that requires a customer service call of unpredictable length, which includes an unsavory argument. This is a disgraceful way to live in my opinion.
    - cfadvan 8y ago
      It’s literally a 10 second series of clicks on the “orders” section of your account, no call required.
    - jjeaff 8y ago
      No, I have never called amazon. It's automatic. And in the rare case where the automatic option doesn't work, I use the live chat help.
goliatone 8y ago
I bought a pair of expensive Sony Bluetooth headphones from amazon. They shipped a pair that was refurbished, as in they had a crack and then had been glued together. Sent it back as for a replacement. A few months later that pair cracked in the exact same spot- and they were out of warranty at that time :/ Before buying I did not come across any reviews mentioning that issue. When mine cracked I did another search for reviews and came a ton of individuals on different forums complaining about the same problem, but did not find any reviews on Amazon mentioning that- by then- know issue. Bought directly from amazon...
bluedino 8y ago
eBay is every bit as terrible, and they also have worse browsing/searching
- vernie 8y ago
  Okay. What's your point?
- mikeash 8y ago
  eBay makes it much clearer what’s going on. There are some things I buy there with the full knowledge that it’s coming from some rando, probably in China. I limit what I buy there to products where that’s ok. With Amazon they make it look like many products are more than they really are.
- mrob 8y ago
  EBay doesn't have inventory co-mingling.
- cm2187 8y ago
  That's one of many problems. Fake buyers winning auctions with no intention to pay, fake buyers putting high bids seconds before the auction end to reveal everyone's bid limit, then cancelling the bid, then bidding £1 below the highest bid limit to max out bid limits. The UI is a train wreck with not a single page vaguely consistent with the others, not just the format, the content too (messages pending, items sold, etc).
  - jjeaff 8y ago
    I buy and sell a lot on eBay. I just always use buy it now. That solves all of your complaints above. (just make sure you require immediate payment). As for the UI, I agree on that. But Amazon's seller UI is a nightmare as well. Many listing features don't even have a UI and require a huge bloated Excel file upload.
Alex3917 8y ago
How is Bezos not in prison? Pretty much all of Amazon now consists of knowingly counterfeit products, many of which contain toxic materials or are fire hazards, with knowingly fake reviews. Not to mention all the illegal drugs he's selling. It's absolutely insane.
cs702 8y ago
> Type in "wireless headphones" and the top results look like what you'd find on a corner in Chinatown than a legitimate electronics store. This is the most apt, insightful description I've seen so far of what is evidently a growing problem for Amazon: more and more retail consumers no longer trust the merchandise being sold by Amazon. I write this as a longtime Amazon Prime member who, recently, for the first time ever, decided to buy a relatively inexpensive product (filters for a fairly expensive espresso machine) from a bricks-and-mortar retailer instead of Amazon, because I could not trust that the products listed for sale on Amazon were genuine (as opposed to knock-offs) or even the right kind (made with the right kind of silicon).
- Symbiote 8y ago
  I first stopped buying memory cards, camera batteries and so on from Amazon, after I received a counterfeit battery. Having found other retailers for those items, they now also benefit from other purchases. I haven't bought anything from Amazon for over two years. I've also told my parents not to use Amazon for electronics. They won't notice if they get a counterfeit charger that could burn their house down. It's unlikely, but not worth a $2 saving.
  - matwood 8y ago
    Even before Amazon became a problem, anything camera related I always ordered from B&H or Adorama. Camera equipment is just so ripe for fakes and grey market stuff.
    - astura 8y ago
      B&H openly sells grey market products. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/find/HelpCenter/USGrey.jsp https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/find/HelpCenter/USGrey.jsp Just to be clear, the only thing that's really wrong with grey market products is they don't come with a warranty. The are the same exact products you get on the white market.
      - matwood 8y ago
astura 8y ago
If I want cheap generic headphones I can go to monoprice and get something cheap but safe, legal, and decent quality - their $10 are surprising decent for what they are, throwaway headphones. If I want nicer headphones I can go to a brick and mortar retailer (or their online counterpart) and get a selection of curtailed products from known brands provided by known suppliers with all the information about the products listed with a good search so I can compare. I have a choice but I don't have to slog through dozens of private label brands or poorly listed products with missing or incorrect descriptions/information. Or irrelevant products listed in the wrong product category. If I go to Amazon I have to wade through pages of bad search results full of junky unsafe products from questionable sources (paradox of choice) with bad/missing information just to roll the dice that I don't get something counterfeit and/or unsafe. What purpose does Amazon service now in this situation?
- leephillips 8y ago
  What do you mean by "curtailed products"?
  - unreal37 8y ago
    curated.
    - astura 8y ago
      Yes, thank you, autocomplete fail. Basically, Best Buy doesn't just sell anything JoeBlow45 who created their account yesterday decides to dump on their site, they have real suppliers and they know what they are selling. And the listings don't end up like this: https://www.amazon.com/Paper-Illusions-Hearthstone-Colored-Wallpaper/dp/B00AQKEXB6 https://www.amazon.com/Paper-Illusions-Hearthstone-Colored-W... it's a listing for wallpaper but the pictures are for a Grateful Dead plush and another picture is a Grateful Dead poster.
      - jjeaff 8y ago
        >Best Buy doesn't just sell anything JoeBlow45 who created their account yesterday You might be surprised. Many big box sellers now include third party listings from anyone and everyone. I believe Best Buy discontinued this last year or so. But many still do. Newegg, Walmart, Sears, to name a few.
traviswingo 8y ago
I, too, have more and more frequently been running into these issues with Amazon. I've been extremely dissatisfied with my last handful of Amazon purchase - all of them were clearly used items that were being sold as "new." I can no longer tell if I'm going to buy something from Amazon or a legitimate Amazon seller or some random company. It's really a shame, because Amazon used to be such a great place and I'm still having problems purging my trust for them since its so heavily supported by the years of great service. Thankfully, many places now price match with Amazon, so the need to use them is becoming less and less.
natural219 8y ago
These all look totally fine to me? The top items have 1000s of reviews at 4.5+ rating. For a general query of "wireless headphones" without any other specifics this seems like a pretty damned good result page. If you're specifically looking for high-quality headphones, the $200 & Above option is right there in the sidebar. https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1_13?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=wireless+headphones&sprefix=wireless+head%2Caps%2C198&crid=1Q7I35RUTCDQ8 https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1_13?url=search-alia...
Twirrim 8y ago
Considering how often I heard the "Customer Obsession" (https://www.amazon.jobs/en/principles https://www.amazon.jobs/en/principles) principle come up in both technical and business decisions at Amazon, I'm completely baffled that the marketplace product remains, and shows no sign of intending to clean up its act. It's arguably wrecking intolerable damage to customer trust, the one thing that is supposed to be being held above all others there.
- s17n 8y ago
  It's because fashion brands don't want to let Amazon sell their products. Lax counterfeit enforcement is Amazon saying "you can do this the easy way or the hard way." Kind of like how Youtube couldn't figure out how to enforce copyright until the music industry started cutting deals with them. I fully support it, fuck fashion brands and their ridiculous manufactured exclusivity.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - walterbell 8y ago
    Same for eyeglass frames. It’s also a way of slowing Alibaba from growing US marketshare.
  - earenndil 8y ago
    > Kind of like how Youtube couldn't figure out how to enforce copyright until the music industry started cutting deals with them I mean, they still don't exactly know how to enforce copyright.
- guitarbill 8y ago
  Haha, two of those principles are literally "Earn Trust" and "Insist on the Highest Standards", neither of which is happening here.
dawnerd 8y ago
In fact many of the results are almost identical to searches on eBay. It’s a shame that just about the only stores that don’t have this problem are target and Best Buy as they don’t have third party merchant results.
- jjeaff 8y ago
  And best buy only removed their 3rd party listings in 2016
madeofpalk 8y ago
Is this only a problem in American Amazon, or does like UK Amazon also suffer from this? I ask because I recently started using Amazon since I moved to the UK and it's been fantastic. I haven't ran into any of these problems.
- oldcynic 8y ago
  Yes has happened to me and several friends from Amazon UK. If it's a suspect category I'll try and buy direct or another retailer to avoid the hassle of returns. UK & EU law places the legal liability on the retailer not the manufacturer. You will be able to return long after our US friends have been told it's outside the return window. Unfortunately UK seems to have accepted Amazon marketplace as platform rather than Amazon as retailer. "Sold by Amazon" should keep you within Sale of Goods Acts protection. Guardian have been running a few tests recently[0],[1]. Traditional large high street retailers will typically avoid this by checking you conform to safety standards and are genuine, before accepting you as a supplier. Then randomly checking until you eventually rate becoming a preferred or trusted supplier. So I have high trust of everywhere on the high street, even including Poundland. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/apr/27/amazon-site-awash-with-counterfeit-goods-despite-crackdown https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/apr/27/amazon-si... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/06/dangerous-fake-electrical-goods-sold-amazon-ebay-investigation https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/06/dangerous...
elithrar 8y ago
The “fulfilled” by distinction catches many an unawares shopper; legitimate merchants/manufacturers are also suffering revenue & brand damage too. I recently came across a case[1] where a set of Marshall headphones that usually retail at USD$249 were being sold at USD$96. Reviews seemed legit, but it wasn’t the first party seller. I reached out to Marshall over Twitter, and it looks like something has been done, but how does a manufacturer police this without dedicated staff? Amazon is undermining its customers (both you & I, and its merchants) by seemingly ignoring this. [1]: https://twitter.com/elithrar/status/1005606803118252032 https://twitter.com/elithrar/status/1005606803118252032
notabee 8y ago
That's not even getting in to the current mess of Amazon Logistics deliveries. I thought perhaps it was just my bad luck, but a quick search online shows that their attempt to save money on shipping by doing it themselves has comically bad results. Unreliable quality with unreliable delivery, but unfortunately some of my attempts to shop elsewhere have also had very bad results.

p49k 8y ago

Even items “shipped and sold by amazon” can often be counterfeit. Below is one example, but I’ve also read on HN of someone receiving a dangerous fake Apple adapter that was “sold and shipped by Amazon”, and I have personally bought shampoo from Amazon that I’m pretty certain was counterfeit. http://www.thefashionlaw.com/home/amazon-is-tricking-consumers-with-its-ships-from-and-sold-by-amazon-label-per-new-suit http://www.thefashionlaw.com/home/amazon-is-tricking-consume...

bapbap 8y ago
I've wondered if Amazon co-locates its own stock with that of Fulfillment By Amazon stock which would mean you could end up with anything as long as it looks similar and has the same SKU.
- inapis 8y ago
  This is exactly what happens. Items from different sellers are mixed together and then randomly dispatched by Amazon under their own name.
  - bapbap 8y ago
    Ah, it makes sense to do so but I'd imagine this practice would affect consumer confidence in Sold by Amazon options given time.
    - skellera 8y ago
      It already is. As you can see by everyone here talking about it, it's beginning to cost them sales. I imagine there will be a big campaign by Amazon in some years from now about them "trying" to fix this problem.
  - coaxial 8y ago
    This is the reason why I quit buying anything from Amazon anymore if I can help it. They're not interested in fixing it. What I can't understand is this: even if they comingle, they must know which seller owns which item. If they didn't, how would they pay the right seller once a particular item is sold? And yet, there seems to be no accountability at all.
    - jjeaff 8y ago
      They don't need to know which product belongs to which seller, they only need to know how many. If someone clicks your listing and buys a product, they ship it from the commingled inventory and then pay you your share of the sale and deduct one from your inventory tally. Then, if the item they sent ends up being counterfeit, whether from your own stock, from another seller, or even from Amazon's own stock, they will take it out on your seller account for selling counterfeits.
      - coaxial 8y ago
        So then how do they decide which of the comingled sellers got the sale? Round Robin? Random?
        bchallenor 8y ago
        The customer still ordered via the listing of a specific vendor, even if Amazon shipped from co-mingled stock.
- usrusr 8y ago
  Probably because someone who has fulfilment speed as their bonus metric keeps prevailing over those with return rate as their bonus metric.
dahdum 8y ago
Absolutely true, bought an item sold and shipped from Amazon and received a broken counterfeit. They only let me return and would not replace with a real one, probably because they have no idea what they are selling anymore due to inventory mixing.
- staticautomatic 8y ago
  Amazon's "inventory mixing" situation seems strikingly similar to the mixing problems in the commercial meat production industry [often identified as a significant factor in contamination investigations].
Fej 8y ago
Have any other retailers (especially those with similar "marketplaces" like Walmart and Newegg) implemented the commingling idea?
skellera 8y ago
This was happening with Ziess lens cleaners which is a HUGE deal because counterfeit lens cleaners don't use isopropyl alcohol to clean. They use ammonia (like windex) which destroys lens coatings. At least stores like Walmart (not counting their online which is a marketplace like Amazon) vet the in-store products.
rladd 8y ago
Even genuine goods sold by Amazon can be problematic. I bought a consumer-grade router sold by Amazon, and what arrived was an obsolete version that had not been produced for 4 years. They did accept it back though.

googaaplmsft 8y ago

> Sellers have completely gamed search, ratings, reviews, everything and Amazon, by design, makes it really hard to tell if you're buying something "shipped and sold by Amazon" vs some other shady seller whose products are only being fulfilled by Amazon I have to disagree with you on that. I've personally not had an issue seeing who the seller is, and to double check I went to Amazon, clicked on the very first thing, a moon lamp, and it clearly stated right under in-stock, who it was sold by and that it was being fulfilled by Amazon.

dawhizkid 8y ago
My point is the UI/UX for Amazon vs marketplace sellers is the same, and most customers are not as savvy or diligent as you or I to read the one line on the page that tells you the seller is Amazon or not. The fact that you even have to be that careful is a bad customer experience.
- googaaplmsft 8y ago
  As far as UI/UX design is concerned, I'm kind of surprised Amazon doesn't favor themselves more. Though I guess in their mind any customer going through them is still a sale. Regardless, would a business want to sell on Amazon if they were treated second? > The fact that you even have to be that careful is a bad customer experience. This we can agree on, ideally Amazon would go through some evaluation process to determine that a seller is legitimate. Instead as far as I know they just let user reviews decide. Side note though, Amazon really needs some competition. I can't recall the last time I bought anything online (that needed to be shipped) that wasn't through Amazon. For example, I used to buy computer parts from sites like Newegg, but unless there's a particularly good deal I'm probably going to Amazon. Clothing? Amazon. I don't want to have Levis and Hanes shipped separately. Amazon is the Walmart of online retailers.
  - jstarfish 8y ago
    Amazon does have competition though. Ebay Stores have been around forever, and Walmart and others have now also entered the third-party marketplace game. But you can buy the same questionable goods they all peddle by buying directly from Alibaba and saving yourself the reseller markup. Shipping just takes longer.

Exuma 8y ago

https://www.fakespot.com/ https://www.fakespot.com/

inapis 8y ago
This only solves the problem somewhat. It’s accurate 80% of the time in my country but I shudder to think what would happen when it becomes really prominent.

oldcynic 8y ago

You can only trust "shipped and sold by Amazon" if you can be certain they are not using inventory co-mingling. Basically everyone's inventory for the same product are thrown into the same warehouse storage bin, so when you buy the item it's a lucky dip as to whose product is picked and put in the parcel. If another merchant is offering the same item on the listing I don't think it's possible to be certain. Does anyone know a way to be sure?

CodeWriter23 8y ago
Actually co-mingling in the same warehouse bin is of little to no benefit to Amazon. The benefit is derived by having the same item in different bins, which are in geographically diverse warehouse locations. Amazon saves big bucks by shipping from the most cost effective location in relation to the customer.
- oldcynic 8y ago
  As far as ordering is concerned they are the same. How Amazon handle within a warehouse or across multiple doesn't change the effect to consumers: If FakeCo send 200 fake headphones to Amazon, co mingle, and Amazon have 800 genuine headphones: 80% of purchases from both Amazon and FakeCo will be genuine, and 20% fake. Amazon is effectively subsidising the counterfeiter and encourages legitimately good reviews for an entirely fraudulent supplier! If they're allocated to different warehouses then chances of fake may vary by which warehouse is nearest. In aggregate the effect is the same. It's no wonder reviews are so often such a confusing and contradictory mess.
- petra 8y ago
  It's not about cheaper shipping - but also faster shipping. And where would Amazon be without faster shipping than their competitors ?

AJ007 8y ago

It’s the dangerous products that concern me more than the counterfeit ones. I’m more lenient than you, but yes there are huge category groups I won’t even bother trying to buy on Amazon. That list has been increasing, not shrinking. I still buy a lot from Amazon, but it’s probably more attributable to not going to physical retailers. This has made me more bullish about non-Amazon e-commerce.

extralego 8y ago
What examples of ‘dangerous items’ come to mind? (Not to suggest the list is short by any means. I’m just curious.) As an American company, and with so much power, and with the issue being so dispersed and untraceable, I imagine safety is not sufficient cause for regulation.
- dawhizkid 8y ago
  Baby formula is a classic one. Electronics with flammable batteries.
- ridgeguy 8y ago
  Counterfeit nutritional supplements. No way to tell what's really in them. Edited for clarity
  - Shikadi 8y ago
    That's true in grocery stores too though
    - woobar 8y ago
      What grocery store let random people stock their shelves?
      - zrobotics 8y ago
        There is no oversight of supplements (at least in the US). You just have to trust the brand, because legally there's nothing stopping a supplement manufacturer from using entirely different ingredients from what is claimed.

extralego 8y ago

In addition to the issues mentioned above, I cancelled Prime when returns of Marketplace items started being handled by the merchants instead of Amazon, meaning the customer handles the return shipping cost, even for faulty or misrepresented products, and the merchant is ground zero for customer service.

jjeaff 8y ago
You may have to demand it, but I have never had to pay return shipping for a defective item on Amazon whether direct to Amazon or to a 3rd party. And I have purchased an unbelievable amount of stuff from Amazon.
- extralego 8y ago
  I expect that requires a customer service call of unpredictable length, which includes an unsavory argument. This is a disgraceful way to live in my opinion.
  - cfadvan 8y ago
    It’s literally a 10 second series of clicks on the “orders” section of your account, no call required.
  - jjeaff 8y ago
    No, I have never called amazon. It's automatic. And in the rare case where the automatic option doesn't work, I use the live chat help.

goliatone 8y ago

I bought a pair of expensive Sony Bluetooth headphones from amazon. They shipped a pair that was refurbished, as in they had a crack and then had been glued together. Sent it back as for a replacement. A few months later that pair cracked in the exact same spot- and they were out of warranty at that time :/ Before buying I did not come across any reviews mentioning that issue. When mine cracked I did another search for reviews and came a ton of individuals on different forums complaining about the same problem, but did not find any reviews on Amazon mentioning that- by then- know issue. Bought directly from amazon...

bluedino 8y ago

eBay is every bit as terrible, and they also have worse browsing/searching

vernie 8y ago
Okay. What's your point?
mikeash 8y ago
eBay makes it much clearer what’s going on. There are some things I buy there with the full knowledge that it’s coming from some rando, probably in China. I limit what I buy there to products where that’s ok. With Amazon they make it look like many products are more than they really are.
mrob 8y ago
EBay doesn't have inventory co-mingling.
cm2187 8y ago
That's one of many problems. Fake buyers winning auctions with no intention to pay, fake buyers putting high bids seconds before the auction end to reveal everyone's bid limit, then cancelling the bid, then bidding £1 below the highest bid limit to max out bid limits. The UI is a train wreck with not a single page vaguely consistent with the others, not just the format, the content too (messages pending, items sold, etc).
- jjeaff 8y ago
  I buy and sell a lot on eBay. I just always use buy it now. That solves all of your complaints above. (just make sure you require immediate payment). As for the UI, I agree on that. But Amazon's seller UI is a nightmare as well. Many listing features don't even have a UI and require a huge bloated Excel file upload.

Alex3917 8y ago

How is Bezos not in prison? Pretty much all of Amazon now consists of knowingly counterfeit products, many of which contain toxic materials or are fire hazards, with knowingly fake reviews. Not to mention all the illegal drugs he's selling. It's absolutely insane.

cs702 8y ago

> Type in "wireless headphones" and the top results look like what you'd find on a corner in Chinatown than a legitimate electronics store. This is the most apt, insightful description I've seen so far of what is evidently a growing problem for Amazon: more and more retail consumers no longer trust the merchandise being sold by Amazon. I write this as a longtime Amazon Prime member who, recently, for the first time ever, decided to buy a relatively inexpensive product (filters for a fairly expensive espresso machine) from a bricks-and-mortar retailer instead of Amazon, because I could not trust that the products listed for sale on Amazon were genuine (as opposed to knock-offs) or even the right kind (made with the right kind of silicon).

Symbiote 8y ago
I first stopped buying memory cards, camera batteries and so on from Amazon, after I received a counterfeit battery. Having found other retailers for those items, they now also benefit from other purchases. I haven't bought anything from Amazon for over two years. I've also told my parents not to use Amazon for electronics. They won't notice if they get a counterfeit charger that could burn their house down. It's unlikely, but not worth a $2 saving.
- matwood 8y ago
  Even before Amazon became a problem, anything camera related I always ordered from B&H or Adorama. Camera equipment is just so ripe for fakes and grey market stuff.
  - astura 8y ago
    B&H openly sells grey market products. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/find/HelpCenter/USGrey.jsp https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/find/HelpCenter/USGrey.jsp Just to be clear, the only thing that's really wrong with grey market products is they don't come with a warranty. The are the same exact products you get on the white market.
    - matwood 8y ago

astura 8y ago

If I want cheap generic headphones I can go to monoprice and get something cheap but safe, legal, and decent quality - their $10 are surprising decent for what they are, throwaway headphones. If I want nicer headphones I can go to a brick and mortar retailer (or their online counterpart) and get a selection of curtailed products from known brands provided by known suppliers with all the information about the products listed with a good search so I can compare. I have a choice but I don't have to slog through dozens of private label brands or poorly listed products with missing or incorrect descriptions/information. Or irrelevant products listed in the wrong product category. If I go to Amazon I have to wade through pages of bad search results full of junky unsafe products from questionable sources (paradox of choice) with bad/missing information just to roll the dice that I don't get something counterfeit and/or unsafe. What purpose does Amazon service now in this situation?

leephillips 8y ago
What do you mean by "curtailed products"?
- unreal37 8y ago
  curated.
  - astura 8y ago
    Yes, thank you, autocomplete fail. Basically, Best Buy doesn't just sell anything JoeBlow45 who created their account yesterday decides to dump on their site, they have real suppliers and they know what they are selling. And the listings don't end up like this: https://www.amazon.com/Paper-Illusions-Hearthstone-Colored-Wallpaper/dp/B00AQKEXB6 https://www.amazon.com/Paper-Illusions-Hearthstone-Colored-W... it's a listing for wallpaper but the pictures are for a Grateful Dead plush and another picture is a Grateful Dead poster.
    - jjeaff 8y ago
      >Best Buy doesn't just sell anything JoeBlow45 who created their account yesterday You might be surprised. Many big box sellers now include third party listings from anyone and everyone. I believe Best Buy discontinued this last year or so. But many still do. Newegg, Walmart, Sears, to name a few.

traviswingo 8y ago

I, too, have more and more frequently been running into these issues with Amazon. I've been extremely dissatisfied with my last handful of Amazon purchase - all of them were clearly used items that were being sold as "new." I can no longer tell if I'm going to buy something from Amazon or a legitimate Amazon seller or some random company. It's really a shame, because Amazon used to be such a great place and I'm still having problems purging my trust for them since its so heavily supported by the years of great service. Thankfully, many places now price match with Amazon, so the need to use them is becoming less and less.

natural219 8y ago

These all look totally fine to me? The top items have 1000s of reviews at 4.5+ rating. For a general query of "wireless headphones" without any other specifics this seems like a pretty damned good result page. If you're specifically looking for high-quality headphones, the $200 & Above option is right there in the sidebar. https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1_13?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=wireless+headphones&sprefix=wireless+head%2Caps%2C198&crid=1Q7I35RUTCDQ8 https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1_13?url=search-alia...

Twirrim 8y ago

Considering how often I heard the "Customer Obsession" (https://www.amazon.jobs/en/principles https://www.amazon.jobs/en/principles) principle come up in both technical and business decisions at Amazon, I'm completely baffled that the marketplace product remains, and shows no sign of intending to clean up its act. It's arguably wrecking intolerable damage to customer trust, the one thing that is supposed to be being held above all others there.

s17n 8y ago
It's because fashion brands don't want to let Amazon sell their products. Lax counterfeit enforcement is Amazon saying "you can do this the easy way or the hard way." Kind of like how Youtube couldn't figure out how to enforce copyright until the music industry started cutting deals with them. I fully support it, fuck fashion brands and their ridiculous manufactured exclusivity.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- walterbell 8y ago
  Same for eyeglass frames. It’s also a way of slowing Alibaba from growing US marketshare.
- earenndil 8y ago
  > Kind of like how Youtube couldn't figure out how to enforce copyright until the music industry started cutting deals with them I mean, they still don't exactly know how to enforce copyright.
guitarbill 8y ago
Haha, two of those principles are literally "Earn Trust" and "Insist on the Highest Standards", neither of which is happening here.

dawnerd 8y ago

In fact many of the results are almost identical to searches on eBay. It’s a shame that just about the only stores that don’t have this problem are target and Best Buy as they don’t have third party merchant results.

jjeaff 8y ago
And best buy only removed their 3rd party listings in 2016

madeofpalk 8y ago

Is this only a problem in American Amazon, or does like UK Amazon also suffer from this? I ask because I recently started using Amazon since I moved to the UK and it's been fantastic. I haven't ran into any of these problems.

oldcynic 8y ago
Yes has happened to me and several friends from Amazon UK. If it's a suspect category I'll try and buy direct or another retailer to avoid the hassle of returns. UK & EU law places the legal liability on the retailer not the manufacturer. You will be able to return long after our US friends have been told it's outside the return window. Unfortunately UK seems to have accepted Amazon marketplace as platform rather than Amazon as retailer. "Sold by Amazon" should keep you within Sale of Goods Acts protection. Guardian have been running a few tests recently[0],[1]. Traditional large high street retailers will typically avoid this by checking you conform to safety standards and are genuine, before accepting you as a supplier. Then randomly checking until you eventually rate becoming a preferred or trusted supplier. So I have high trust of everywhere on the high street, even including Poundland. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/apr/27/amazon-site-awash-with-counterfeit-goods-despite-crackdown https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/apr/27/amazon-si... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/06/dangerous-fake-electrical-goods-sold-amazon-ebay-investigation https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/06/dangerous...

elithrar 8y ago

The “fulfilled” by distinction catches many an unawares shopper; legitimate merchants/manufacturers are also suffering revenue & brand damage too. I recently came across a case[1] where a set of Marshall headphones that usually retail at USD$249 were being sold at USD$96. Reviews seemed legit, but it wasn’t the first party seller. I reached out to Marshall over Twitter, and it looks like something has been done, but how does a manufacturer police this without dedicated staff? Amazon is undermining its customers (both you & I, and its merchants) by seemingly ignoring this. [1]: https://twitter.com/elithrar/status/1005606803118252032 https://twitter.com/elithrar/status/1005606803118252032

notabee 8y ago

That's not even getting in to the current mess of Amazon Logistics deliveries. I thought perhaps it was just my bad luck, but a quick search online shows that their attempt to save money on shipping by doing it themselves has comically bad results. Unreliable quality with unreliable delivery, but unfortunately some of my attempts to shop elsewhere have also had very bad results.