4 ms·

I have been in this exact place before. For the two of them, this day will be just about the worst of their lives. This is ordinarily when hard-core criminals

I have been in this exact place before. For the two of them, this day will be just about the worst of their lives. This is ordinarily when hard-core criminals are taken into custody. If their experience was like mine, they had to show up in front of a magistrate with their lawyers, plead not guilty, then go to a dungeon for about 30 minutes while they get handcuffed, fingerprinted, mugshotted, and DNA-swabbed. Then, off they go until trial. It's basically like being free, but you have to stay out of trouble and report all contacts with law enforcement. Being rich (or from money), they won't have to worry about federal defenders or CJA representation, which wouldn't be near as bad as dealing with a state-funded public defender. There's a small chance they'll have to go this route anyway, since the government can snatch the money in dispute and block you from spending your ill-gotten gains on high-priced legal representation. Don't let the "sticker price" fool you. They're not going to have to serve consecutive 20-year terms for what they're accused of, even if they take it to trial and get found guilty. They will probably get their first plea offers in about a year. Most people take the plea. In the event they refuse to plead guilty, trial will probably take about 2-3 years from today. Holmes will be offered, I'm guessing, about 6-9 months and a joint-and-several "money judgment" (restitution + forfeiture). Balwani, about 5 years and a joint-and-several "money judgment". This may be a package deal too, so Holmes may not be able to take it if Balwani won't. Why the discrepancy? The 28th amendment hasn't been ratified yet. Before my experience with this world, I would have been eager to join in the collective bloodlust, with the pitchfork-and-torch crowd clamoring for these overprivileged defendants to sit through a trial and rot in prison. Take it from me: I wouldn't put my worst enemy through even just the trial.

tptacek 8y ago
Given the forfeiture terms at the end of the indictment, it looks like they'll both be zeroed out if found guilty (which seems like a near certainty), regardless of how long they're kept in custody.
colordrops 8y ago
Re: "putting my worst enemy through", I don't know, this doesn't sound as bad as growing up in a war zone or even the ghetto, or getting waterboarded. Sounds like bureaucratic hell, but that's not even close to how bad things can get.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- madrox 8y ago
  Well, hopefully you wouldn't want to put your worst enemy through those things, either. Doesn't have to be the worst thing in the world for you to not wish it on someone.
  - colordrops 8y ago
    I believe in proportionate and fair punishment for crimes committed by anyone, let alone my worst enemy. Bureaucratic hell seems more than reasonable for the crimes committed by Theranos leadership. And I'm sure the trial won't be as bad as prison.
Matachines 8y ago
The craziest part of the justice system is how dependent on money it is. I am in a weekly support group for people with the same offense category as me, sometimes crimes not as bad as mine. Most of the members in this group are working class - hourly jobs, no savings, no emergency funds, government lawyers. They mostly had to serve time, had to register as offenders, have strict stipulations. Meanwhile I was able to borrow money from my parents, got a good lawyer, and all I have to do is check in with probation once a month for a few years.
- dempseye 8y ago
  What was the crime? I understand if you don't want to reveal that on here.
- EpicEng 8y ago
  This applies to everything in life ever. People with resources have better outcomes. I don't know how you solve for that no matter what systems you put into place.
smallgovt 8y ago
Can you expand on your experience with indictments like this? It rings true to me that, in general, the average person would have much more compassion for 'bad' people in 'bad' situations if they could live a day in their shoes.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- mchannon 8y ago
  [site redacted] Eerily similar experience, down to the charges and the 11 counts. I don't disagree, but the average person on a jury just does what the lady in the skirtsuit tells them to do so they can get out of there. Most people you want on a jury throw away their summons with zero risk to the practice.
  - paradroid 8y ago
    The dollar figures involved are three to four orders of magnitude greater in their case.
  - seibelj 8y ago
    I looked into your case a bit and I agree your sentence is unduly harsh. You fraudently redeemed rewards for a bunch of fake people and make $100k, I don’t feel like this warranted everything that happened to you and your family. Sucks to be made an example of :/
    - mchannon 8y ago
      I know you're trying to be nice, but I think you missed something. "Mr. Dufresne, you killed your wife and her lover, I don't feel like you should have gone to Shawshank."
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  I would have more compassion for bad people if they didn't do bad things.
- 8y ago
kyleblarson 8y ago
If only there were a way to avoid such an uncomfortable experience.
shawn 8y ago
This is ordinarily when hard-core criminals are taken into custody. It's basically like being free, but you have to stay out of trouble and report all contacts with law enforcement. There's a small chance they'll have to go this route anyway, since the government can snatch the money They're not going to have to serve consecutive 20-year terms for what they're accused of Holmes will be offered, I'm guessing, about 6-9 months and a joint-and-several "money judgment" (restitution + forfeiture). Balwani, about 5 years and a joint-and-several "money judgment". Take it from me: I wouldn't put my worst enemy through even just the trial. Quite an interesting contrast between what privileged rich people have to worry about vs poor. Nearly every one of those points are solely because you have money, not merit-based. I guess this is when the world proves what really matters.
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > Quite an interesting contrast between what privileged rich people have to worry about vs poor This is speculation. Let’s wait to see what is handed down. It was common thought on these forums just weeks ago that money and connections would buy Holmes out of an indictment.
  - shawn 8y ago
    It wasn’t entirely speculation, since he had firsthand experience.
- sharkweek 8y ago
  The most recent true crime documentary series on Netflix, 'The Staircase,' talks about this. The defendant, a wealthy individual, ends up paying around $750,000 out of pocket for his defense. He asks the question what this would have looked like if he was poor.
  - 21 8y ago
    I also bet that they didn't sent the SWAT team to arrest him with a no-knock warrant.
jonnycomputer 8y ago
you do the crime, you pay the time. look, this society will fall apart if its only the poor who will pay the price for flouting the law.
- anonymous5133 8y ago
  Often times the paying the time part causes far more destruction than intended. The cost to jail someone is huge and the criminal record that people get often forces them into a cycle of crime because they cant even get a legitimate job.
- jessaustin 8y ago
  "Will"? "If"? If Homes and Balwani had confined their predations to the general public, they'd still be free and wealthy. It's only because they also swindled some plutocrats that they're going to have to return most of their plunder.
wil421 8y ago
I feel like you are playing the victim in this situation. Tone is hard to read through text so please forgive me if I misread your factual statements based on your own experience. Both of these people fully deserve what’s coming to them. They lied to investors, they lied again to investors to keep the company afoalt, and above all they seriously jepordized medical results. It’s one thing to challenge status quo or even current regulations, a la Uber. To mess with people’s health or their perception of it is completely wrong. We should not minimize the situation. Again, I cannot tell your tone. I’ve been following this for a while and it was obvious what would happen from the moment the whistle was blown.
- mchannon 8y ago
  I am a victim, offering highly pertinent experiences to inform the opinions of the HN crowd. It doesn't matter if my tone offends your sensibilities. I feel like you're playing judge, jury, and executioner. Leave the pitchforks and torches for the judicial system in this country. What if they get found not guilty, or more likely (but still unlikely) the feds quietly drop the case?
  - tptacek 8y ago
    You were convicted both of a scheme where you bypassed OfficeMax's limits on the number of printer cartridges any one person could redeem, and for a separate scheme where you claimed the purchases of strangers as your own to cash in on their rebates. A lot of people here might disagree with how much prosecutorial attention was heaped on you, but "victim" is laying it on a bit thick. The new infographic is a nice touch.
    - mchannon 8y ago
      Tom, you're still not getting it. Falsified evidence. Not just falsified, but clearly in the case record falsified. Anyone can be a victim of that. Happens every day. Thanks for the backhanded compliment on the infographic; I wouldn't mind your following me around if you got your facts right.
mpweiher 8y ago
> Why the discrepancy? The 28th amendment hasn't been ratified yet. What do you mean with that? As far as I can tell, a 28th amendment hasn't even been proposed, although there is an urban legend about it that circulates in chain mails. However...even that fantasy amendment is about equal treatment of citizens and members of congress...not sure how that would apply. The closest I can see is that Holmes's mother was a congressional staffer, but that's (a) not her, but her mother and (b) not an actual member of congress and (c) the laws aren't actually different here(?) Puzzled.
- mchannon 8y ago
  Equal Rights Amendment. It's alive and well. Illinois just ratified it, and we need one more state to reach the magic number. As soon as the right wing of America realizes that men are sometimes discriminated against, we won't be waiting long until one more state legislature puts it over.
- throwawayjava 8y ago
  From context, I think parent was probably referred to the Equal Rights Amendment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Rights_Amendment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Rights_Amendment But yes, referring to a proposed amendment as "the 28th amendment" is very confusing, since there will always be multiple proposed amendments at any given point in time.
rsyntax 8y ago
What? Not a ounce of sympathy. What about the people they defraud and harassed on a daily basis to keep up the fraud?
throwawayjava 8y ago
Thanks for sharing your experience. Criminal justice is hard stuff. > Why the discrepancy? The 28th amendment hasn't been ratified yet. I predict Holmes gets at least as much time as Balwani, if not more. Why? Many of the most compelling causal explanations for the (very real and concerning) gender sentencing gap aren't applicable to this case. (On a related note, I had an exchange about gender gaps in sentencing with another HN user 3 months ago who was complaining how unfair it was that Holmes "is spending exactly zero days in prison" and got off with "a slap in the wrist" compared to Shkreli [1].) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16588351 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16588351
jessaustin 8y ago
I have a lot of sympathy for you, because I know that decent people are railroaded by federal prosecutors every day. That's not what's going on here. Prosecutors are attacking wealthy interests, not just defending them. (Since this is primarily a dispute among investors, wealthy interests are in opposition. Prosecutors have to choose a side, and they always choose the one farther up the pyramid.) It's actually pretty unlikely that Holmes and Balwani will lose all of their fancy properties, because that sort of scene also upsets the plutocrats. They'll just have to give back most of the millions they've squirreled away.
- mchannon 8y ago
  Sympathy is better than the other thing. The fact is that we don't know what actually happened, only what the government and media want us to know, even if it isn't so. They look guilty as hell, but so do innocent people. Trial by jury is better than trial by media, so I'll take the high road and reserve my judgment until then.
  - jessaustin 8y ago
    At least in this case the media has changed its mind, which seems rare? I remember when Therano-doubters were written off as sexists rather than skeptics. If they had a working product and a mere investor disagreement, I'd be as suspicious of the Feds as I usually am. In this case there is no sign of a functioning anything, and apparently they've broken rules about medical safety. Anyway, trial by jury is not great. If one can avoid it by appealing to the media, one definitely should do that.
shostack 8y ago
Interesting timing as Preet just had part 3 of his Criminal Justice mini-series as part of his amazing Stay Tuned podcast [1]. This episode focuses on the experience of a defendant Preet's office convicted of insider trading in the Galleon Group case. He speaks to the entire process, how he felt throughout it, etc. Highly recommended to everyone. [1] https://player.fm/series/series-2249929/criminal-justice-part-3-the-defendant https://player.fm/series/series-2249929/criminal-justice-par...

tptacek 8y ago

Given the forfeiture terms at the end of the indictment, it looks like they'll both be zeroed out if found guilty (which seems like a near certainty), regardless of how long they're kept in custody.

colordrops 8y ago

Re: "putting my worst enemy through", I don't know, this doesn't sound as bad as growing up in a war zone or even the ghetto, or getting waterboarded. Sounds like bureaucratic hell, but that's not even close to how bad things can get.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
madrox 8y ago
Well, hopefully you wouldn't want to put your worst enemy through those things, either. Doesn't have to be the worst thing in the world for you to not wish it on someone.
- colordrops 8y ago
  I believe in proportionate and fair punishment for crimes committed by anyone, let alone my worst enemy. Bureaucratic hell seems more than reasonable for the crimes committed by Theranos leadership. And I'm sure the trial won't be as bad as prison.

Matachines 8y ago

The craziest part of the justice system is how dependent on money it is. I am in a weekly support group for people with the same offense category as me, sometimes crimes not as bad as mine. Most of the members in this group are working class - hourly jobs, no savings, no emergency funds, government lawyers. They mostly had to serve time, had to register as offenders, have strict stipulations. Meanwhile I was able to borrow money from my parents, got a good lawyer, and all I have to do is check in with probation once a month for a few years.

dempseye 8y ago
What was the crime? I understand if you don't want to reveal that on here.
EpicEng 8y ago
This applies to everything in life ever. People with resources have better outcomes. I don't know how you solve for that no matter what systems you put into place.

smallgovt 8y ago

Can you expand on your experience with indictments like this? It rings true to me that, in general, the average person would have much more compassion for 'bad' people in 'bad' situations if they could live a day in their shoes.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
mchannon 8y ago
[site redacted] Eerily similar experience, down to the charges and the 11 counts. I don't disagree, but the average person on a jury just does what the lady in the skirtsuit tells them to do so they can get out of there. Most people you want on a jury throw away their summons with zero risk to the practice.
- paradroid 8y ago
  The dollar figures involved are three to four orders of magnitude greater in their case.
- seibelj 8y ago
  I looked into your case a bit and I agree your sentence is unduly harsh. You fraudently redeemed rewards for a bunch of fake people and make $100k, I don’t feel like this warranted everything that happened to you and your family. Sucks to be made an example of :/
  - mchannon 8y ago
    I know you're trying to be nice, but I think you missed something. "Mr. Dufresne, you killed your wife and her lover, I don't feel like you should have gone to Shawshank."
s73v3r_ 8y ago
I would have more compassion for bad people if they didn't do bad things.
8y ago

kyleblarson 8y ago

If only there were a way to avoid such an uncomfortable experience.

shawn 8y ago

This is ordinarily when hard-core criminals are taken into custody. It's basically like being free, but you have to stay out of trouble and report all contacts with law enforcement. There's a small chance they'll have to go this route anyway, since the government can snatch the money They're not going to have to serve consecutive 20-year terms for what they're accused of Holmes will be offered, I'm guessing, about 6-9 months and a joint-and-several "money judgment" (restitution + forfeiture). Balwani, about 5 years and a joint-and-several "money judgment". Take it from me: I wouldn't put my worst enemy through even just the trial. Quite an interesting contrast between what privileged rich people have to worry about vs poor. Nearly every one of those points are solely because you have money, not merit-based. I guess this is when the world proves what really matters.

JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> Quite an interesting contrast between what privileged rich people have to worry about vs poor This is speculation. Let’s wait to see what is handed down. It was common thought on these forums just weeks ago that money and connections would buy Holmes out of an indictment.
- shawn 8y ago
  It wasn’t entirely speculation, since he had firsthand experience.
sharkweek 8y ago
The most recent true crime documentary series on Netflix, 'The Staircase,' talks about this. The defendant, a wealthy individual, ends up paying around $750,000 out of pocket for his defense. He asks the question what this would have looked like if he was poor.
- 21 8y ago
  I also bet that they didn't sent the SWAT team to arrest him with a no-knock warrant.

jonnycomputer 8y ago

you do the crime, you pay the time. look, this society will fall apart if its only the poor who will pay the price for flouting the law.

anonymous5133 8y ago
Often times the paying the time part causes far more destruction than intended. The cost to jail someone is huge and the criminal record that people get often forces them into a cycle of crime because they cant even get a legitimate job.
jessaustin 8y ago
"Will"? "If"? If Homes and Balwani had confined their predations to the general public, they'd still be free and wealthy. It's only because they also swindled some plutocrats that they're going to have to return most of their plunder.

wil421 8y ago

I feel like you are playing the victim in this situation. Tone is hard to read through text so please forgive me if I misread your factual statements based on your own experience. Both of these people fully deserve what’s coming to them. They lied to investors, they lied again to investors to keep the company afoalt, and above all they seriously jepordized medical results. It’s one thing to challenge status quo or even current regulations, a la Uber. To mess with people’s health or their perception of it is completely wrong. We should not minimize the situation. Again, I cannot tell your tone. I’ve been following this for a while and it was obvious what would happen from the moment the whistle was blown.

mchannon 8y ago
I am a victim, offering highly pertinent experiences to inform the opinions of the HN crowd. It doesn't matter if my tone offends your sensibilities. I feel like you're playing judge, jury, and executioner. Leave the pitchforks and torches for the judicial system in this country. What if they get found not guilty, or more likely (but still unlikely) the feds quietly drop the case?
- tptacek 8y ago
  You were convicted both of a scheme where you bypassed OfficeMax's limits on the number of printer cartridges any one person could redeem, and for a separate scheme where you claimed the purchases of strangers as your own to cash in on their rebates. A lot of people here might disagree with how much prosecutorial attention was heaped on you, but "victim" is laying it on a bit thick. The new infographic is a nice touch.
  - mchannon 8y ago
    Tom, you're still not getting it. Falsified evidence. Not just falsified, but clearly in the case record falsified. Anyone can be a victim of that. Happens every day. Thanks for the backhanded compliment on the infographic; I wouldn't mind your following me around if you got your facts right.

mpweiher 8y ago

> Why the discrepancy? The 28th amendment hasn't been ratified yet. What do you mean with that? As far as I can tell, a 28th amendment hasn't even been proposed, although there is an urban legend about it that circulates in chain mails. However...even that fantasy amendment is about equal treatment of citizens and members of congress...not sure how that would apply. The closest I can see is that Holmes's mother was a congressional staffer, but that's (a) not her, but her mother and (b) not an actual member of congress and (c) the laws aren't actually different here(?) Puzzled.

mchannon 8y ago
Equal Rights Amendment. It's alive and well. Illinois just ratified it, and we need one more state to reach the magic number. As soon as the right wing of America realizes that men are sometimes discriminated against, we won't be waiting long until one more state legislature puts it over.
throwawayjava 8y ago
From context, I think parent was probably referred to the Equal Rights Amendment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Rights_Amendment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Rights_Amendment But yes, referring to a proposed amendment as "the 28th amendment" is very confusing, since there will always be multiple proposed amendments at any given point in time.

rsyntax 8y ago

What? Not a ounce of sympathy. What about the people they defraud and harassed on a daily basis to keep up the fraud?

throwawayjava 8y ago

Thanks for sharing your experience. Criminal justice is hard stuff. > Why the discrepancy? The 28th amendment hasn't been ratified yet. I predict Holmes gets at least as much time as Balwani, if not more. Why? Many of the most compelling causal explanations for the (very real and concerning) gender sentencing gap aren't applicable to this case. (On a related note, I had an exchange about gender gaps in sentencing with another HN user 3 months ago who was complaining how unfair it was that Holmes "is spending exactly zero days in prison" and got off with "a slap in the wrist" compared to Shkreli [1].) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16588351 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16588351

jessaustin 8y ago

I have a lot of sympathy for you, because I know that decent people are railroaded by federal prosecutors every day. That's not what's going on here. Prosecutors are attacking wealthy interests, not just defending them. (Since this is primarily a dispute among investors, wealthy interests are in opposition. Prosecutors have to choose a side, and they always choose the one farther up the pyramid.) It's actually pretty unlikely that Holmes and Balwani will lose all of their fancy properties, because that sort of scene also upsets the plutocrats. They'll just have to give back most of the millions they've squirreled away.

mchannon 8y ago
Sympathy is better than the other thing. The fact is that we don't know what actually happened, only what the government and media want us to know, even if it isn't so. They look guilty as hell, but so do innocent people. Trial by jury is better than trial by media, so I'll take the high road and reserve my judgment until then.
- jessaustin 8y ago
  At least in this case the media has changed its mind, which seems rare? I remember when Therano-doubters were written off as sexists rather than skeptics. If they had a working product and a mere investor disagreement, I'd be as suspicious of the Feds as I usually am. In this case there is no sign of a functioning anything, and apparently they've broken rules about medical safety. Anyway, trial by jury is not great. If one can avoid it by appealing to the media, one definitely should do that.

shostack 8y ago

Interesting timing as Preet just had part 3 of his Criminal Justice mini-series as part of his amazing Stay Tuned podcast [1]. This episode focuses on the experience of a defendant Preet's office convicted of insider trading in the Galleon Group case. He speaks to the entire process, how he felt throughout it, etc. Highly recommended to everyone. [1] https://player.fm/series/series-2249929/criminal-justice-part-3-the-defendant https://player.fm/series/series-2249929/criminal-justice-par...