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Yes but I see your comment as a rationale for an additional tariff that covers your circumstance. In what way would you punish China for their bad actions rega

Yes but I see your comment as a rationale for an additional tariff that covers your circumstance. In what way would you punish China for their bad actions regarding US technology?

johnmaguire2013 8y ago
Sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something. In this case, doing something (a) does not harm China, as intended, as they are still the only viable place to purchase these items, yet (b) actively harms business in the United States, as we are paying the additional cost ourselves.
- frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
  (a) I mean this tariff does definitely harm China. The reason they're the only viable place to purchase these items is because they're so cheap. Making them more expensive gives space for non-Chinese competitors to enter into business. (b) It actively harms some businesses, but also gives room for new companies to form where they wouldn't have been able to previously. It's wrong to claim this hurts 'business' in a broad sense. >Sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something. Perhaps but in this case better for who? It doesn't seem to me that - for most Americans - allowing the Chinese to steal our technology and then underprice our businesses with cheap labor is beneficial.
  - AFNobody 8y ago
    > Perhaps but in this case better for who? It doesn't seem to me that - for most Americans - allowing the Chinese to steal our technology and then underprice our businesses with cheap labor is beneficial. - China's labor prices are increasing faster than they are in the US. So fast in fact, people are automating factories in China and/or moving factories to other countries. - Every country _except_ the US will continue to buy those goods at the real market price. - This is just exporting US jobs to Mexico/Canada who will assemble and import into US via NAFTA. That is the best case. - Worst case this sets off a permanent trade war with China and the US is forced to sever ties with every potential "cut out" through which trade can flow. The US would need to knife all of its allies in the back and impose these tariffs on all nations for this to actually work. - The correct response to China's behavior was the TPP followed by multilateral action to punish China.
    - TooBrokeToBeg 8y ago
      > the TPP followed by multilateral action to punish China. So subserving the US to a more ludicrous IP extension (both in duration and power) from less totalitarian (than china) nations (but still more than the US) is the solution? Laughable and misguided.
  - devil_advocate 8y ago
    > The reason they're the only viable place to purchase these items is because they're so cheap. Making them more expensive gives space for non-Chinese competitors to enter into business. Is there any reason to believe that these new competitors will take IP more seriously? I understood one of the main reasons that China were a cheap manufacturing powerhouse is because they were happy to copy anything and everything. Won't this just blacklist one particular country, and give a boost to the next biggest country that's willing to disregard international IP? I don't see how this solves the problem at all. If I were another country that didn't take copyright seriously, I'd be laughing all the way to the bank right now. You mean I can get this big (points to China) before the U.S. decides to take action -- and that only if they have the most conservative president in the past several decades? Sign us up!
  - orwin 8y ago
    It does not harm china that much: It's too late for IP on old products, China is becoming more and more interesting for european "brain" (or US is less interesting, i don't know), and China education have caught up to western education (at least in STEM) during the last decade. The tariffs attack the wrong goods: Us manufacturers will still be buying them at 25% up, and chinese and europeans will sell finished products lower than manufacturers. And China can actually outsource the finishing touch of unfinished products in SW Asia or (even better for almost everyone) in Africa. Honestly i don't really care but i am interested on how India/Indonesia (and some african countries i hope) will take advantages of Trump policies. To me this is a good thing for the world, general "comfort" of several countries could rise thank to Trump. I know it's frowned upon here, but i like several move he made, including this, and how he made european countries closer.
  - systoll 8y ago
    > allowing the Chinese to steal our technology and then underprice our businesses with cheap labor [is not beneficial to most Americans] This tariff isn't preventing that, or punishing the Chinese companies involved. > The reason they're the only viable place to purchase these items is because they're so cheap. Making them more expensive gives space for non-Chinese competitors to enter into business. This tariff makes American assembly of Chinese components more expensive than it already is. Finished goods made in China are unaffected. For example, an assembled-in-china iPhone will stay the same, but the moment this comes into effect, the cost of making the Mac Pro in the US will go up substantially. To avoid this, apple can either: 1. Shift Mac Pro assembly to any other country. 2. Switch out all their suppliers and components to ensure that nothing comes from China. Most products have done #1 without the tariff. The tariff just makes it harder to justify keeping anything in the US.
- kinsomo 8y ago
  > (a) does not harm China, as intended, as they are still the only viable place to purchase these items, yet (b) actively harms business in the United States, as we are paying the additional cost ourselves. There's an important qualification: that's probably only true in the short or medium term. I believe the goal is that the higher cost would produce economic space for competitors to enter the market. Ironically, I believe the WTO rules allow for countries classified as "developing" (like China) to maintain high tariffs to develop local industry for precisely this reason.
  - curiousgal 8y ago
    >that's probably only true in the short or medium term Exactly, except there is no long term because the following administration will undo all of what the current one has done.
    - mistermann 8y ago
      Citation?
      - mistermann 8y ago
        Downvotes for asking someone for evidence of a guarantee of what someone is going to do in the future? I long for the days before HN became an ideological battleground.
jtmcmc 8y ago
a multilateral action like say a non terrible version of the TPP...

Yes but I see your comment as a rationale for an additional tariff that covers your circumstance. In what way would you punish China for their bad actions regarding US technology?

johnmaguire2013 8y ago

Sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something. In this case, doing something (a) does not harm China, as intended, as they are still the only viable place to purchase these items, yet (b) actively harms business in the United States, as we are paying the additional cost ourselves.

frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
(a) I mean this tariff does definitely harm China. The reason they're the only viable place to purchase these items is because they're so cheap. Making them more expensive gives space for non-Chinese competitors to enter into business. (b) It actively harms some businesses, but also gives room for new companies to form where they wouldn't have been able to previously. It's wrong to claim this hurts 'business' in a broad sense. >Sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something. Perhaps but in this case better for who? It doesn't seem to me that - for most Americans - allowing the Chinese to steal our technology and then underprice our businesses with cheap labor is beneficial.
- AFNobody 8y ago
  > Perhaps but in this case better for who? It doesn't seem to me that - for most Americans - allowing the Chinese to steal our technology and then underprice our businesses with cheap labor is beneficial. - China's labor prices are increasing faster than they are in the US. So fast in fact, people are automating factories in China and/or moving factories to other countries. - Every country _except_ the US will continue to buy those goods at the real market price. - This is just exporting US jobs to Mexico/Canada who will assemble and import into US via NAFTA. That is the best case. - Worst case this sets off a permanent trade war with China and the US is forced to sever ties with every potential "cut out" through which trade can flow. The US would need to knife all of its allies in the back and impose these tariffs on all nations for this to actually work. - The correct response to China's behavior was the TPP followed by multilateral action to punish China.
  - TooBrokeToBeg 8y ago
    > the TPP followed by multilateral action to punish China. So subserving the US to a more ludicrous IP extension (both in duration and power) from less totalitarian (than china) nations (but still more than the US) is the solution? Laughable and misguided.
- devil_advocate 8y ago
  > The reason they're the only viable place to purchase these items is because they're so cheap. Making them more expensive gives space for non-Chinese competitors to enter into business. Is there any reason to believe that these new competitors will take IP more seriously? I understood one of the main reasons that China were a cheap manufacturing powerhouse is because they were happy to copy anything and everything. Won't this just blacklist one particular country, and give a boost to the next biggest country that's willing to disregard international IP? I don't see how this solves the problem at all. If I were another country that didn't take copyright seriously, I'd be laughing all the way to the bank right now. You mean I can get this big (points to China) before the U.S. decides to take action -- and that only if they have the most conservative president in the past several decades? Sign us up!
- orwin 8y ago
  It does not harm china that much: It's too late for IP on old products, China is becoming more and more interesting for european "brain" (or US is less interesting, i don't know), and China education have caught up to western education (at least in STEM) during the last decade. The tariffs attack the wrong goods: Us manufacturers will still be buying them at 25% up, and chinese and europeans will sell finished products lower than manufacturers. And China can actually outsource the finishing touch of unfinished products in SW Asia or (even better for almost everyone) in Africa. Honestly i don't really care but i am interested on how India/Indonesia (and some african countries i hope) will take advantages of Trump policies. To me this is a good thing for the world, general "comfort" of several countries could rise thank to Trump. I know it's frowned upon here, but i like several move he made, including this, and how he made european countries closer.
- systoll 8y ago
  > allowing the Chinese to steal our technology and then underprice our businesses with cheap labor [is not beneficial to most Americans] This tariff isn't preventing that, or punishing the Chinese companies involved. > The reason they're the only viable place to purchase these items is because they're so cheap. Making them more expensive gives space for non-Chinese competitors to enter into business. This tariff makes American assembly of Chinese components more expensive than it already is. Finished goods made in China are unaffected. For example, an assembled-in-china iPhone will stay the same, but the moment this comes into effect, the cost of making the Mac Pro in the US will go up substantially. To avoid this, apple can either: 1. Shift Mac Pro assembly to any other country. 2. Switch out all their suppliers and components to ensure that nothing comes from China. Most products have done #1 without the tariff. The tariff just makes it harder to justify keeping anything in the US.
kinsomo 8y ago
> (a) does not harm China, as intended, as they are still the only viable place to purchase these items, yet (b) actively harms business in the United States, as we are paying the additional cost ourselves. There's an important qualification: that's probably only true in the short or medium term. I believe the goal is that the higher cost would produce economic space for competitors to enter the market. Ironically, I believe the WTO rules allow for countries classified as "developing" (like China) to maintain high tariffs to develop local industry for precisely this reason.
- curiousgal 8y ago
  >that's probably only true in the short or medium term Exactly, except there is no long term because the following administration will undo all of what the current one has done.
  - mistermann 8y ago
    Citation?
    - mistermann 8y ago
      Downvotes for asking someone for evidence of a guarantee of what someone is going to do in the future? I long for the days before HN became an ideological battleground.

jtmcmc 8y ago

a multilateral action like say a non terrible version of the TPP...