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> Six current and former Fitbit employees were charged in a federal indictment Thursday filed in San Jose for allegedly being in possession of trade secrets sto

by koolba 8y ago

> Six current and former Fitbit employees were charged in a federal indictment Thursday filed in San Jose for allegedly being in possession of trade secrets stolen from competitor Jawbone, according to information from the Department of Justice. Wht makes this a criminal matter as opposed to a civil one?

wnevets 8y ago
Stealing is criminal?
- randyrand 8y ago
  Not all types of stealing is. IP theft is not criminal for instance.
williamscales 8y ago
Theft of trade secrets is a specific criminal offense: 18 U.S. Code § 1832 - Theft of trade secrets (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1832 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1832)
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- randyrand 8y ago
  What about release trade secretly publicly instead of stealing them?
  - pc86 8y ago
    Doesn't that still require theft? Stealing money from a bank and giving $100 to the next N people you see doesn't negate the fact that you stole the money from the bank. It just makes it harder for you to give it back.
    - randyrand 8y ago
      Just because one can make an analogy doesn't make it illegal. We'd have to read and understand the laws. But to your point: IMO theft is not a good analogy for this. It's not theft, its inflation. In the bank scenario the bank would still have a copy of the $100. And so would everyone else. It's true, copying money devalues it - just like openly spreading a secret does - so everyone has less than $100 inflation adjusted dollars. Theft is not a good term for this. I think the crime should be called "Spread of trade secrets"
- crispyambulance 8y ago
  It is a stretch. We're talking about a bunch of people in a failing company going to work for a competitor so they can continue their careers. Happens all the time and there's nothing wrong with it. Unfortunately, some aggressive entity in Jawbone has gotten busy filing lawsuits, there was one in 2016 against the same people that failed. I don't see what good it does NOW to go after these individuals criminally, nor is there mention on who has been pushing this. Jawbone was liquidated in 2017. Who, actually, cares at this point? What do they stand to gain with these charges?
  - pc86 8y ago
    > What do they stand to gain with these charges? A federal prosecutor gets to beef up their numbers by getting some well paid tech workers to settle out of court for a few years salary spread over a few decades of payments.
- geebee 8y ago
  Interesting, thanks. One thing, the penalty listed here says: (b) Any organization that commits any offense described in subsection (a) shall be fined not more than the greater of $5,000,000 or 3 times the value of the stolen trade secret to the organization, including expenses for research and design and other costs of reproducing the trade secret that the organization has thereby avoided. But the penalty discussed in the article is up to 10 years in prison $250,000 in fines. Is there a different statue at play here?
  - juki 8y ago
    Right above (b): > shall, except as provided in subsection (b), be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.
    - geebee 8y ago
      ah, so different penalties depending on whether it's an individual or an organization, but same statute. thanks.
1123581321 8y ago
Simply because there are federal laws criminalising industrial espionage itself beyond the component crimes of burglary, trespassing, etc. See the EEA, passed in the mid 90s, and some recent expansions of its powers.
em3rgent0rdr 8y ago
I don't know why you are being downvoted. That is a very legitimate question. I would think that since trade secret theft is really simply a violation of a private contract, that it should therefore simply be a civil offense. However, it seems that the people who made the U.S. Economic Espionage Act of 1996 [1] (which is what made theft of a trade secret a federal crime) and of The Defend Trade Secrets Act of 2016 [2] (which strengthened that) believe otherwise. From the title of those acts, I'd guess they argued it should be a federal crime because of the risk of foreign entities gaining US company knowledge and/or harm to US economy in general. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Espionage_Act_of_1996 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Espionage_Act_of_1996 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defend_Trade_Secrets_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defend_Trade_Secrets_Act
- citrablue 8y ago
  The timing is interesting, assuming it took a few years in draft before being voted to pass. According to a "Jose Canseco" like book called Confessions of an Economic Hit Man, the USSR would frequently attend international trade shows and directly purchase/bribe/steal technology from westerners. But only after the fall of the union did it become a criminal act for an American commit.[0] Then again, this was also the first period when technology really became ubiquitous. Perhaps it just reflects the spread of tech. [0] of course treason / violation of oath was a crime, I'm just curious if anyone more versed in history than I can provide more insight.
  - mattmanser 8y ago
    The late 80s were all hysteria about Japanese firms taking over America. You can see it in a lot of books and films from the era. There's a really quite odd film called Rising Sun with Sean Connery and Wesley Snipes that has corporate espionage as part of the plot. 1993 release, which was actually just after Japan's economy slowed down.
    - Spoom 8y ago
      The original Rising Sun book by Michael Crichton is a good read if you didn't know about it. Haven't seen the movie.
paulie_a 8y ago
Potentially because it could be considered a conspiracy? I can't say for sure but it would make sense. There is probably more information that will be released. I probably still have trade secrets from my previous employer stashed away on a hard drive that I forgot about. But I am not going to a competitor either so I am not concerned.
IncRnd 8y ago
Maybe because this isn't petty theft?
- function_seven 8y ago
  Not all IP theft is considered criminal, so OP is asking a legitimate question. Sometimes it's only civil, like patent infringement or trademark infringement. Other times it can be criminal, like trade secrets (only recently it appears?) and copyright violations.
  - IncRnd 8y ago
    Yes, I understood it to be a legitimate question. That is why I gave a legitimate answer. The difference between civil and criminal theft is where there is a criminal statute covering the theft that the prosecutor believes was broken.
    - function_seven 8y ago
      I'm not sure what petty theft has to do with any of this, though. That's also a crime, and isn't related to the question of whether this issue is a criminal one or purely civil.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
ModernMech 8y ago
I would guess because whatever group of politicians drafted whatever laws are relevant here were given money by corporations who would very much have liked to criminalize the possession of their secrets. Locking up your competitors is great for business.
alfredallan1 8y ago
theft == crime.
- cobbzilla 8y ago
  I just stole your idea. theft != crime
  - abiox 8y ago
    > I just stole your idea. i feel like this may be a category error; it's not clear that "idea" is something which can "be stolen". at least not in a way that seems similar to (for example) having your car stolen.
    - cobbzilla 8y ago
      subtlety, a lost, and now down-voted, art.
  - alfredallan1 8y ago
    As much I hate to admit it, I have no proof that it was infact my idea. So there’s not a damn thing I can do about it :( But, if I had in fact patented a practical implementation of my abstract idea, or my idea itself was about a practical implementation of a thing and it was patented, and you stole it, we’d have loads of fun doing a tango dance at the local courthouse. Assuming of course that I could afford the lawyer to dance on my behalf, considering my terrible dancing skills.
emodendroket 8y ago
If I had to guess it'd be the existence of a criminal statute penalizing the behavior

by koolba 8y ago

wnevets 8y ago

Stealing is criminal?

randyrand 8y ago
Not all types of stealing is. IP theft is not criminal for instance.

williamscales 8y ago

Theft of trade secrets is a specific criminal offense: 18 U.S. Code § 1832 - Theft of trade secrets (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1832 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1832)

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
randyrand 8y ago
What about release trade secretly publicly instead of stealing them?
- pc86 8y ago
  Doesn't that still require theft? Stealing money from a bank and giving $100 to the next N people you see doesn't negate the fact that you stole the money from the bank. It just makes it harder for you to give it back.
  - randyrand 8y ago
    Just because one can make an analogy doesn't make it illegal. We'd have to read and understand the laws. But to your point: IMO theft is not a good analogy for this. It's not theft, its inflation. In the bank scenario the bank would still have a copy of the $100. And so would everyone else. It's true, copying money devalues it - just like openly spreading a secret does - so everyone has less than $100 inflation adjusted dollars. Theft is not a good term for this. I think the crime should be called "Spread of trade secrets"
crispyambulance 8y ago
It is a stretch. We're talking about a bunch of people in a failing company going to work for a competitor so they can continue their careers. Happens all the time and there's nothing wrong with it. Unfortunately, some aggressive entity in Jawbone has gotten busy filing lawsuits, there was one in 2016 against the same people that failed. I don't see what good it does NOW to go after these individuals criminally, nor is there mention on who has been pushing this. Jawbone was liquidated in 2017. Who, actually, cares at this point? What do they stand to gain with these charges?
- pc86 8y ago
  > What do they stand to gain with these charges? A federal prosecutor gets to beef up their numbers by getting some well paid tech workers to settle out of court for a few years salary spread over a few decades of payments.
geebee 8y ago
Interesting, thanks. One thing, the penalty listed here says: (b) Any organization that commits any offense described in subsection (a) shall be fined not more than the greater of $5,000,000 or 3 times the value of the stolen trade secret to the organization, including expenses for research and design and other costs of reproducing the trade secret that the organization has thereby avoided. But the penalty discussed in the article is up to 10 years in prison $250,000 in fines. Is there a different statue at play here?
- juki 8y ago
  Right above (b): > shall, except as provided in subsection (b), be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.
  - geebee 8y ago
    ah, so different penalties depending on whether it's an individual or an organization, but same statute. thanks.

1123581321 8y ago

Simply because there are federal laws criminalising industrial espionage itself beyond the component crimes of burglary, trespassing, etc. See the EEA, passed in the mid 90s, and some recent expansions of its powers.

em3rgent0rdr 8y ago

I don't know why you are being downvoted. That is a very legitimate question. I would think that since trade secret theft is really simply a violation of a private contract, that it should therefore simply be a civil offense. However, it seems that the people who made the U.S. Economic Espionage Act of 1996 [1] (which is what made theft of a trade secret a federal crime) and of The Defend Trade Secrets Act of 2016 [2] (which strengthened that) believe otherwise. From the title of those acts, I'd guess they argued it should be a federal crime because of the risk of foreign entities gaining US company knowledge and/or harm to US economy in general. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Espionage_Act_of_1996 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Espionage_Act_of_1996 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defend_Trade_Secrets_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defend_Trade_Secrets_Act

citrablue 8y ago
The timing is interesting, assuming it took a few years in draft before being voted to pass. According to a "Jose Canseco" like book called Confessions of an Economic Hit Man, the USSR would frequently attend international trade shows and directly purchase/bribe/steal technology from westerners. But only after the fall of the union did it become a criminal act for an American commit.[0] Then again, this was also the first period when technology really became ubiquitous. Perhaps it just reflects the spread of tech. [0] of course treason / violation of oath was a crime, I'm just curious if anyone more versed in history than I can provide more insight.
- mattmanser 8y ago
  The late 80s were all hysteria about Japanese firms taking over America. You can see it in a lot of books and films from the era. There's a really quite odd film called Rising Sun with Sean Connery and Wesley Snipes that has corporate espionage as part of the plot. 1993 release, which was actually just after Japan's economy slowed down.
  - Spoom 8y ago
    The original Rising Sun book by Michael Crichton is a good read if you didn't know about it. Haven't seen the movie.

paulie_a 8y ago

Potentially because it could be considered a conspiracy? I can't say for sure but it would make sense. There is probably more information that will be released. I probably still have trade secrets from my previous employer stashed away on a hard drive that I forgot about. But I am not going to a competitor either so I am not concerned.

IncRnd 8y ago

Maybe because this isn't petty theft?

function_seven 8y ago
Not all IP theft is considered criminal, so OP is asking a legitimate question. Sometimes it's only civil, like patent infringement or trademark infringement. Other times it can be criminal, like trade secrets (only recently it appears?) and copyright violations.
- IncRnd 8y ago
  Yes, I understood it to be a legitimate question. That is why I gave a legitimate answer. The difference between civil and criminal theft is where there is a criminal statute covering the theft that the prosecutor believes was broken.
  - function_seven 8y ago
    I'm not sure what petty theft has to do with any of this, though. That's also a crime, and isn't related to the question of whether this issue is a criminal one or purely civil.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]

ModernMech 8y ago

I would guess because whatever group of politicians drafted whatever laws are relevant here were given money by corporations who would very much have liked to criminalize the possession of their secrets. Locking up your competitors is great for business.

alfredallan1 8y ago

theft == crime.

cobbzilla 8y ago
I just stole your idea. theft != crime
- abiox 8y ago
  > I just stole your idea. i feel like this may be a category error; it's not clear that "idea" is something which can "be stolen". at least not in a way that seems similar to (for example) having your car stolen.
  - cobbzilla 8y ago
    subtlety, a lost, and now down-voted, art.
- alfredallan1 8y ago
  As much I hate to admit it, I have no proof that it was infact my idea. So there’s not a damn thing I can do about it :( But, if I had in fact patented a practical implementation of my abstract idea, or my idea itself was about a practical implementation of a thing and it was patented, and you stole it, we’d have loads of fun doing a tango dance at the local courthouse. Assuming of course that I could afford the lawyer to dance on my behalf, considering my terrible dancing skills.

emodendroket 8y ago

If I had to guess it'd be the existence of a criminal statute penalizing the behavior