9 ms·

Bing Maps Streetside Imagery Now Integrated into OpenStreetMap iD Editor

272 points by wangyjx 8y ago

shmerl 8y ago
That's really nice!
seibelj 8y ago
Microsoft continues to make me want to like them, it’s strange
- chii 8y ago
  > it’s strange it's not. They've lost their dominant position (mind-share wise at least) and is clamouring to get it back. Google, on the other hand, has gained a dominant position, and got complacent lately; and people are starting to lose faith in them. But in the end, the goal is to ensure they have good PR.
- rch 8y ago
  You don't need to like them, just continue to hold the stock you bought when Ballmer stepped down. It will probably be obvious when it's time to sell.
beefsack 8y ago
Regardless of the motivations behind doing this (cynics could easily suggest it is a direct attack on Google Maps) this is great news for both OSM and the broader mapping ecosystem. The data OSM provides is immensely valuable and enables some really empowering applications.
- ggg9990 8y ago
  Of course it’s an attack on Google Maps, and that’s a good thing. People should be happy to have Microsoft’s help in fighting Google because Google is much scarier than Microsoft these days.
  - partiallypro 8y ago
    Google is scarier than Microsoft was even in its peak. Google controls most of the world's information, can shape thoughts with search algorithms, can destroy businesses (including competitors) with changes in ad policies, bid processes and search algorithms. Microsoft at its peak could threaten suppliers and some competitors...Google can practically destroy any company/person in any vertical if it so chose.
    - 49bc 8y ago
      > Google can practically destroy any company/person in any vertical if it so chose. Yet they don't. So either they're not as scary as "Microsoft was even at its peak", or maybe they're not as powerful as you make them out to be.
      - sgtmas2006 8y ago
        Do we know this? It is not possible truly to know one way or another at a complete level, although it is unlikely. Saying they are not this powerful is, well, simply not true. It is not possible without creating a huge skunk-works internal project binding people to secrecy. Google doesn't have the power to bind people to secrecy in the same way that say, the CIA, FBI, or NSA do. It does not mean that they do not have the capability of doing these things.
      - vezycash 8y ago
        The key difference btw Google and Microsoft is this: If MS harmed you, you'd know. If Google intends to harm you, it looks like a stroke of bad luck. All they have to do is hide the tree (you the person they intend to harm) within the forest (thousands of other sites/businesses) affected by the same policy change. You could go months without finding out. And if you ever do, it's extremely difficult to prove foul play.
      - raesene9 8y ago
        What makes you say they haven't? There have been many stories of search algorithm changes hurting businesses http://www.smeinsider.com/2015/06/23/google-is-ruining-small-businesses-with-algorithm-change/ http://www.smeinsider.com/2015/06/23/google-is-ruining-small... for one
- rmc 8y ago
  It's not new. MS allows the OSM community to trace from Bing aerial imagery since 2010! And from 2007 till 2011 Yahoo allowed tracing from their aerial imagery. These have been very very helpful to OSM. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bing_Maps https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bing_Maps https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Yahoo!_Aerial_Imagery https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Yahoo!_Aerial_Imagery
api_or_ipa 8y ago
Is this just a case of this uneasy friendliness that MS has had recently toward the open ecosystem, or is MS trying to play a big-league game to combat Google Map's dominance?
- alienallys 8y ago
  It's both. Microsoft is all in on cloud services and infrastructure. They want full ecosystem for Azure customers, and GeoAPIs are important for many users. Next, with upcoming HoloLens they want devs to create some amazing real-time lens apps.
- eksemplar 8y ago
  Microsoft is big in the public sector in Europe, as in, really really big. Open street map is big in the public sector in Europe, as in really really big. It’s probably not related, but who knows.
- maxerickson 8y ago
  Microsoft gave OSM permission to use their aerial imagery for tracing in November 2010. If you look at this as a continuation of that it isn't terribly recent.
iancarroll 8y ago
This title seems inaccurate. The article makes it sound like the data is just retrieved, from Microsoft, when using a specific editor. OSM doesn’t actually have the data nor are they are distributing it.
- steve19 8y ago
  Yes, I don't believe they are licensing the data. (edit: my mistake, there is a license of sorts, see the comment below)
  - maxerickson 8y ago
    It's a narrow license, allowing the imagery to be used to verify information being added to OSM: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/pull/5050#issuecomment-397102559 https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/pull/5050#issuecomment-3... Question 3 is the interesting part giving some examples of how they expect it to be used and an example of how it shouldn't be used.
- alasdair_ 8y ago
  Exactly. The title is pretty bad. All they are doing is displaying the data in one particular editor. It's like displaying google streetmaps in another window when you edited open streetmaps - there is no "contribution" of data at all.
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    This is not true. What you described would violate Google’s copyright on their mapping data (or the copyright owner they’ve licensed it from, depending on the data).
    - boise 8y ago
      this +100000. The huge-ness of this contribution to making openstreetmap better is underscored by the fact that you're not allowed to do this with Google Street View (Section 10) https://developers.google.com/maps/terms https://developers.google.com/maps/terms
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
bprasanna 8y ago
Commitment to make things right, seems to be on track for Microsoft! Great going
- Piskvorrr 8y ago
  It does seem genuine...but the fear of another SCO-like submarine lingers.
simula67 8y ago
Good news. These types of data intensive apps ( Google search, Google Maps etc ) are one of the greatest threats to the open web because they make it very painful to switch to an alternate provider. Keeping this type of data open ( along with open data interchange formats ) could improve competition in service providers
- sidr 8y ago
  It's actually trivially easy to switch from Google search and maps, just type in a different URL or change a setting on your browser. It's only "hard" because the alternatives are just not as good. The fact the the alternatives have to work so hard to stay competitive might suggest that open data intensive apps just aren't as good of a model for delivering quality content. We've seen this play out before with the iOS and Mac OS X hatred before tech folks turned from hating MS to Apple to now, Google/FB.
sidcool 8y ago
Although the only reason MS is doing this to undermine Google, it's a win for open source. Competition helps.
gasull 8y ago
Is there a good Android app using OSM that will give me public transportation directions in the main cities of the world? Until them I'm stuck with Google Maps.
- Brakenshire 8y ago
  Moovit uses OpenStreetMap to generate its map tiles, Citymapper uses it for its walking and perhaps cycling directions. OSMAnd has quite good tools for visualising public transport routes, for instance you can plot subway routes on top of the street map, and you can select bus stops, see the buses stopping there, then select the route and see its full path and all stops mapped.
- trystero 8y ago
  Transportr is an alternative, but it's still a long way to go to compete with Google Maps, Citymapper and the like. https://transportr.grobox.de/ https://transportr.grobox.de/
- Piskvorrr 8y ago
  I think Maps.Me did something in that direction - but well, the quality of the underlying data varies wildly. Google can (and IMHO does) periodically pay for licensing the transport data, OSM doesn't do that (for cost and license compatibility, amongst other things). Not all PT authorities are amenable to open data :(
  - PkBuzios 8y ago
    They are starting. You can get routing for Underground in some cities. But if you check OSM there is a lot of data. I think that all what is missing is a algorithm to make the routing.
    - Piskvorrr 8y ago
      As an OSM contributor, I beg to differ. "Just an algorithm" needs to take into account all the different ways in which the data is input, guess at possible transfers (again, stops might be mapped, but are they reachable from each other?), and that's before we get to the issue of stale data (infrastructure might be mapped, but the line numbering and routing changes at a moment's notice). So yeah, it looks easy at first glance.
afeezaziz 8y ago
I am operating a fleet of vehicles that have multiple cameras on them. I would like to contribute to an open source community that can have work with OSM, freely. Is there an option for this? Other than mapillary.
- maxerickson 8y ago
  There's OpenStreetCam, but it isn't a whole lot different than Mapillary. I think it will be a while before there is a community project accepting many gigabytes of photos every day.
  - ris 8y ago
    Many years ago (before the advent of OpenStreetCam or Mapillary) I proposed a federated scheme where various entities could obtain their own dirt-cheap http hosting (backblaze?) and simply submit indexes (or make available in an easily discoverable fashion) of the image metadata for centralized tools to pull together, but this was dismissed as lunacy. I still don't think it would be too tricky to do and would nicely decouple the fundamental storage/hosting problem from all the other problems that might need solving. What I thought was particularly interesting was how EXIF data tends to be near the beginning of a JFIF file which could allow "cheap" bulk scanning of jpeg metadata by using http 1.1 ranges.... who knows.
- efsavage 8y ago
  Why not Mapillary?

272 points by wangyjx 8y ago

shmerl 8y ago

That's really nice!

seibelj 8y ago

Microsoft continues to make me want to like them, it’s strange

chii 8y ago
> it’s strange it's not. They've lost their dominant position (mind-share wise at least) and is clamouring to get it back. Google, on the other hand, has gained a dominant position, and got complacent lately; and people are starting to lose faith in them. But in the end, the goal is to ensure they have good PR.
rch 8y ago
You don't need to like them, just continue to hold the stock you bought when Ballmer stepped down. It will probably be obvious when it's time to sell.

beefsack 8y ago

Regardless of the motivations behind doing this (cynics could easily suggest it is a direct attack on Google Maps) this is great news for both OSM and the broader mapping ecosystem. The data OSM provides is immensely valuable and enables some really empowering applications.

ggg9990 8y ago
Of course it’s an attack on Google Maps, and that’s a good thing. People should be happy to have Microsoft’s help in fighting Google because Google is much scarier than Microsoft these days.
- partiallypro 8y ago
  Google is scarier than Microsoft was even in its peak. Google controls most of the world's information, can shape thoughts with search algorithms, can destroy businesses (including competitors) with changes in ad policies, bid processes and search algorithms. Microsoft at its peak could threaten suppliers and some competitors...Google can practically destroy any company/person in any vertical if it so chose.
  - 49bc 8y ago
    > Google can practically destroy any company/person in any vertical if it so chose. Yet they don't. So either they're not as scary as "Microsoft was even at its peak", or maybe they're not as powerful as you make them out to be.
    - sgtmas2006 8y ago
      Do we know this? It is not possible truly to know one way or another at a complete level, although it is unlikely. Saying they are not this powerful is, well, simply not true. It is not possible without creating a huge skunk-works internal project binding people to secrecy. Google doesn't have the power to bind people to secrecy in the same way that say, the CIA, FBI, or NSA do. It does not mean that they do not have the capability of doing these things.
    - vezycash 8y ago
      The key difference btw Google and Microsoft is this: If MS harmed you, you'd know. If Google intends to harm you, it looks like a stroke of bad luck. All they have to do is hide the tree (you the person they intend to harm) within the forest (thousands of other sites/businesses) affected by the same policy change. You could go months without finding out. And if you ever do, it's extremely difficult to prove foul play.
    - raesene9 8y ago
      What makes you say they haven't? There have been many stories of search algorithm changes hurting businesses http://www.smeinsider.com/2015/06/23/google-is-ruining-small-businesses-with-algorithm-change/ http://www.smeinsider.com/2015/06/23/google-is-ruining-small... for one
rmc 8y ago
It's not new. MS allows the OSM community to trace from Bing aerial imagery since 2010! And from 2007 till 2011 Yahoo allowed tracing from their aerial imagery. These have been very very helpful to OSM. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bing_Maps https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bing_Maps https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Yahoo!_Aerial_Imagery https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Yahoo!_Aerial_Imagery

api_or_ipa 8y ago

Is this just a case of this uneasy friendliness that MS has had recently toward the open ecosystem, or is MS trying to play a big-league game to combat Google Map's dominance?

alienallys 8y ago
It's both. Microsoft is all in on cloud services and infrastructure. They want full ecosystem for Azure customers, and GeoAPIs are important for many users. Next, with upcoming HoloLens they want devs to create some amazing real-time lens apps.
eksemplar 8y ago
Microsoft is big in the public sector in Europe, as in, really really big. Open street map is big in the public sector in Europe, as in really really big. It’s probably not related, but who knows.
maxerickson 8y ago
Microsoft gave OSM permission to use their aerial imagery for tracing in November 2010. If you look at this as a continuation of that it isn't terribly recent.

iancarroll 8y ago

This title seems inaccurate. The article makes it sound like the data is just retrieved, from Microsoft, when using a specific editor. OSM doesn’t actually have the data nor are they are distributing it.

steve19 8y ago
Yes, I don't believe they are licensing the data. (edit: my mistake, there is a license of sorts, see the comment below)
- maxerickson 8y ago
  It's a narrow license, allowing the imagery to be used to verify information being added to OSM: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/pull/5050#issuecomment-397102559 https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/pull/5050#issuecomment-3... Question 3 is the interesting part giving some examples of how they expect it to be used and an example of how it shouldn't be used.
alasdair_ 8y ago
Exactly. The title is pretty bad. All they are doing is displaying the data in one particular editor. It's like displaying google streetmaps in another window when you edited open streetmaps - there is no "contribution" of data at all.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  This is not true. What you described would violate Google’s copyright on their mapping data (or the copyright owner they’ve licensed it from, depending on the data).
  - boise 8y ago
    this +100000. The huge-ness of this contribution to making openstreetmap better is underscored by the fact that you're not allowed to do this with Google Street View (Section 10) https://developers.google.com/maps/terms https://developers.google.com/maps/terms

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

bprasanna 8y ago

Commitment to make things right, seems to be on track for Microsoft! Great going

Piskvorrr 8y ago
It does seem genuine...but the fear of another SCO-like submarine lingers.

simula67 8y ago

Good news. These types of data intensive apps ( Google search, Google Maps etc ) are one of the greatest threats to the open web because they make it very painful to switch to an alternate provider. Keeping this type of data open ( along with open data interchange formats ) could improve competition in service providers

sidr 8y ago
It's actually trivially easy to switch from Google search and maps, just type in a different URL or change a setting on your browser. It's only "hard" because the alternatives are just not as good. The fact the the alternatives have to work so hard to stay competitive might suggest that open data intensive apps just aren't as good of a model for delivering quality content. We've seen this play out before with the iOS and Mac OS X hatred before tech folks turned from hating MS to Apple to now, Google/FB.

sidcool 8y ago

Although the only reason MS is doing this to undermine Google, it's a win for open source. Competition helps.

gasull 8y ago

Is there a good Android app using OSM that will give me public transportation directions in the main cities of the world? Until them I'm stuck with Google Maps.

Brakenshire 8y ago
Moovit uses OpenStreetMap to generate its map tiles, Citymapper uses it for its walking and perhaps cycling directions. OSMAnd has quite good tools for visualising public transport routes, for instance you can plot subway routes on top of the street map, and you can select bus stops, see the buses stopping there, then select the route and see its full path and all stops mapped.
trystero 8y ago
Transportr is an alternative, but it's still a long way to go to compete with Google Maps, Citymapper and the like. https://transportr.grobox.de/ https://transportr.grobox.de/
Piskvorrr 8y ago
I think Maps.Me did something in that direction - but well, the quality of the underlying data varies wildly. Google can (and IMHO does) periodically pay for licensing the transport data, OSM doesn't do that (for cost and license compatibility, amongst other things). Not all PT authorities are amenable to open data :(
- PkBuzios 8y ago
  They are starting. You can get routing for Underground in some cities. But if you check OSM there is a lot of data. I think that all what is missing is a algorithm to make the routing.
  - Piskvorrr 8y ago
    As an OSM contributor, I beg to differ. "Just an algorithm" needs to take into account all the different ways in which the data is input, guess at possible transfers (again, stops might be mapped, but are they reachable from each other?), and that's before we get to the issue of stale data (infrastructure might be mapped, but the line numbering and routing changes at a moment's notice). So yeah, it looks easy at first glance.

afeezaziz 8y ago

I am operating a fleet of vehicles that have multiple cameras on them. I would like to contribute to an open source community that can have work with OSM, freely. Is there an option for this? Other than mapillary.

maxerickson 8y ago
There's OpenStreetCam, but it isn't a whole lot different than Mapillary. I think it will be a while before there is a community project accepting many gigabytes of photos every day.
- ris 8y ago
  Many years ago (before the advent of OpenStreetCam or Mapillary) I proposed a federated scheme where various entities could obtain their own dirt-cheap http hosting (backblaze?) and simply submit indexes (or make available in an easily discoverable fashion) of the image metadata for centralized tools to pull together, but this was dismissed as lunacy. I still don't think it would be too tricky to do and would nicely decouple the fundamental storage/hosting problem from all the other problems that might need solving. What I thought was particularly interesting was how EXIF data tends to be near the beginning of a JFIF file which could allow "cheap" bulk scanning of jpeg metadata by using http 1.1 ranges.... who knows.
efsavage 8y ago
Why not Mapillary?