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Study: Today’s dads are engaging more with their kids

176 points by kevindeasis 8y ago

andrewclunn 8y ago
Gosh, even as an engaged father myself, pointed BS propaganda likes this makes me want to tell "Jon McBride" that he's a sorry excuse for a man, turning on his own gender for click bait and cheap validation. EDIT - Let me be clear. Pointed adjectives like "negative" with no explanation definitely point to the "toxic masculinity" narrative. And this line: "There are many ways to be a man — being a “tough guy” is associated with poor parenting, which can negatively affect children." is pure dribble.
philipkglass 8y ago
My dad lost his job when I was 7 years old and my sister was 5. He went through 5 years of un- and under-employment. It was harrowing for him and my mom. But he also said in his later years that he would not have been there to see his kids growing up if he'd maintained the steady career progression that he originally expected. I have many fond memories of doing things with my dad during those years. He showed me how to start programming the family Commodore 64 [1]. We did experiments from books of science fair projects -- not for science fairs, just to satisfy my curiosity. We went on camping and fishing trips during summers and school vacations. When I visited friends' houses their dads didn't show up until later in the evening. They were also usually too tired from work to play or work on projects with us like my dad did when I had friends over. I wouldn't wish involuntary unemployment on anyone. My family was lucky that my dad found steady salaried work again before the savings account was completely drained. The stress could have broken a weaker marriage. But I also got something from my dad's extra availability that I wouldn't even have known to miss until adulthood otherwise. Kids will remember and cherish extra engagement with them, whether the time you put in is planned or not. [1] I partially credit my own career to his early help with programming. My friends growing up used 8 bit home computers too. But they didn't have dads working through the C64 Programmer's Reference Guide with them. They learned just enough to load/run software and I learned to write my own. I know that some kids can just pick up a teach-yourself book and learn simple programming on their own. 9-year-old me couldn't. I needed help from my dad. (Thanks, Dad. I miss you.)
- patrickdavey 8y ago
  That's a really lovely story, thanks for sharing it. Wish I could upvote twice :)
- 52-6F-62 8y ago
  You were very lucky in more ways than the one. That's a great story, though. Those kinds of memories and meaning in your work are priceless. My father was overworking most of the time due to his career as a pipefitter for Imperial Oil. He spent two terms unemployed— once when we moved to our small SW Ontario town (long story why), and another during an illness that lasted about a year. Because my mother had left her career in insurance to look after us, our college savings were depleted (the last thing they touched to make payments). I don't remember the times he was unemployed very much. Much of my family was ill at the same time he was and I spent a lot of time looking after them (with my thoroughly tough mother)— otherwise he was driving an 2-3 hours round-trip to the union hall every day to try and find contract work. So I didn't see much of the guy when I was young, and when I did he was exhausted and often cranky. There were some great moments in there, and he still taught me as much as he could while I was there, but I'm just remarking on the work and unemployment and family time thing. Funnily, I got into programming because my mother had an [name I don't remember] 80286 from her work as an insurance analyst and I dug right into that machine. Then the internet finally came to town... .. Really, thanks for sharing that.
  - philipkglass 8y ago
    You were very lucky in more ways than the one. Most definitely. I get a bit of existential vertigo when I think about how much of my often-happy life has depended on luck. It intensifies when I consider how many of those lucky circumstances were determined before my birth.
    - 52-6F-62 8y ago
      Existential vertigo— I’m going to have to remember that term
Karishma1234 8y ago
I believe that is a side effect of increased productivity and prosperity but is this study conditioned on the children having dads in first place? Because I believe single mother phenomenon is on a rapid rise in USA. What about children who dont know their dads ?
- ksenzee 8y ago
  They were studying fathers, so their denominator was fathers, not children. There's plenty of research showing that fathers make a big difference in their children's lives and happiness. From what I can tell this study doesn't speak to that one way or the other.
  - Karishma1234 8y ago
    My point has been that even though fathers are spending more time with children on an average all children are receiving lesser fatherly attention on an average. May be fathers who love children are staying in marriage thus giving a bias to the whole study.
    - bobwaycott 8y ago
      Many of us fathers who spend a lot of time with our children are single.
    - dsnuh 8y ago
      > all children are receiving lesser fatherly attention on an average Provide some facts to back up this claim. > May be fathers who love children are staying in marriage It sounds like you are saying that fathers that leave marriages don't love their children? Is that what you are saying?
      - Karishma1234 8y ago
        > It sounds like you are saying that fathers that leave marriages don't love their children? Is that what you are saying? There is this excellent tool called google that can help you get all the numbers. You should consider using it Sir. Check this resource: http://www.fathers.com/statistics-and-research/the-extent-of-fatherlessness/ http://www.fathers.com/statistics-and-research/the-extent-of... Let us just consider African Americans. around 70% of Black children born last year did not have a father. Are you saying these people loved the children and yet for some unknown reason would not be present to take care of the child or provide child support ? As of today 1 in 3 children in USA are growing up in a household without a father. Are these fathers spending time with their kids ? You tell me.
delbel 8y ago
I was trying to understand andrewclunn now dead comment below. Basically he was saying there was no need for the author of the article (not the study) to write "toxic masculinity" narrative. When I clicked on the PDF, to scan for the word "toxic" I was unable to open the PDF. Did the author of the article Jon McBride artificially put this narrative spin on the study? If so, I don't understand why somebody would do this. Studies like this bring us wonderful news, there is no need to add negative connotation. Sure the tone of andrewclunn comment is debatable, but given he is a father, I think he is entitled to be upset about this because I am also. What do you think HN.
- evilantnie 8y ago
  I don't see the comment you're referring to, but McBride was quoting one of the authors of the study. Technically this isn't "spin", Toxic Masculinity and Hegemonic Masculinity are both fields of study in psychology having to do with promotion of dominance and violence. I think both fields influenced this study. It looks like they developed a Parent-Child-Conflict scale that included spanking, hitting, or threatening physical harm to measure some of this, but the study is much more broader than just this.
  - mi100hael 8y ago
    Spanking is considered to be a "toxic" display of masculinity these days?
    - zxcmx 8y ago
      It’s against the law in New Zealand for example. You may restrain a child for their safety but the use of force for “parental correction” is treated as assault and can be prosecuted. The police are encouraged to apply discretion.
      - germinalphrase 8y ago
        Generally speaking, It is not illegal in the US unless you leave visible marks (e.g. bruises). Even then, it would be reported but little action would be taken unless there are additional issues with the child’s safety. It is still common in many places for a “whooping” to be used to keep kids in line.
rconti 8y ago
My employer just increased their family leave from 12 weeks to 20 weeks, which is a great perk. These days nobody seems to differentiate from maternity vs paternity leave, which is a great idea because, aside from the value it provides fathers, it also gets rid of the idea that the mother should get more time because mothers should be more involved. (alas, you can argue that it ignores the physical sacrifices the mother makes, but as long as there is parity by raising men's leave up rather than reducing a woman's leave, who can argue with it?) I don't have kids but I've often thought if I could get 6-12 months off for having a kid it would change the equation from impossible burden to work around to actually a pleasurable experience to learn/grow/bond/etc.
- monocasa 8y ago
  Additionally, equal paternity leave is a great thing for women's rights too. When employers will see the same leave for their employees when they have a child regardless of gender, then there's less of a rational reason to discriminate against women in the hiring process.
  - GuiA 8y ago
    This is very important. I once worked for the CEO of a startup who told me that he was hesitant to hire women because if they got pregnant “it’d totally screw us over”.
    - CalRobert 8y ago
      This CEO should suffer legal consequences.
      - Simon_says 8y ago
        No, we should change the law on maternity leave.
      - to_bpr 8y ago
        If a startup is running on tight runway then female staff getting pregnant could be massively detrimental. In many civilized parts of the world, a female employee getting pregnant will mean disruption during the pregnancy to accommodate doctor's visits and health issues, and then months of paid leave PLUS having to pay to backfill their position with a temp, plus the costs of recruiting and ramping up said temp. That's a huge hit for an early stage startup to take.
camelCaseOfBeer 8y ago
Seems legit but I can't be the only person who raised an eyebrow at the fact this study originated from BYU, imagining the researchers surveying a bunch of dorks in cargo shorts at a church picnic. Don't judge me, I'm enitled to my snortling.
NDizzle 8y ago
I left the bay area in 2013 when my third kid was born. I'm about 110 miles north now. I expected that as I withdrew from long office hours, replacing it with remote work, my income stagnate (or go down). The opposite happened - my income has actually gone up steadily. Towards the point of this topic - I have been able to spend a lot of time with my kids. We walk (or bike) to and from school, I coach sports, and I'm able to see all of the recitals, performances, and various events. My kids are age 12, 7, and 5 for those wondering. I do work quite a bit, but the work is performed at odd hours, and not during prime family hours. It helps to find companies that is geared towards projects and your performance over the long or medium term, rather than people who want to see butts-in-chairs when they are at the office. I encourage everyone to try to replace their commutes with more time with loved ones. Move your working hours around, if at all possible.
- ktross 8y ago
  I’m a newly single parent, and I’ve been considering my options in regards to remote work. Are you employed full time by a single company or do you find freelance work? The challenge and time investment of finding new clients constantly has me leaning away from freelancing. I haven’t yet been able to find a full time position that’s flexible enough (results based) though.
  - liveoneggs 8y ago
    I have a "regular" (9-5) remote job and a wife who works full time. Working from home has been very helpful for childcare activities. I pick up my kids at 2-3 pm and then get a babysitter for the afternoons while I am still working until 5ish. This ends up being, basically, just a late lunch. If things go south with my babysitter the kids can play or watch tv while I finish up the day and it's not a big deal to occasionally do. I would try to get a stable/full-time job at a family friendly company, but that's just me all the time. Health care is expensive.
  - NDizzle 8y ago
    A little of both. I do the minimum number of full time hours to get insurance benefits, and then I have a part time job at another tech company. Both of those things are very rare. It took me some time to work things out between the two entities. I did have some time to work on pet projects and freelance-style (usually free) projects prior to the kids starting sports.
epx 8y ago
I am the 'good cop' here in da house :D
eiji 8y ago
Study: Today’s moms are engaging less with their kids
pcmoney 8y ago
I’m a relatively new dad so maybe the novelty just hasn’t worn off but I can’t understand fathers who don’t interact with their kids. I do it as much as I can, it’s the best. Not always easy but always good.
- LeifCarrotson 8y ago
  I'm a new dad too, but my father is a 30-year veteran of fatherdom, with the benefit of some new experience as a grandfather thrown in. He and I recently had a heart-to-heart about this. He lamented that he didn't spend more time with me when I was an infant, a toddler, and a kid - he left that to my mother, due to a socially conditioned view of tasks like changing diapers as her responsibility. He still has an instinct to ask my mother whenever my son needs something, and I remind him "No, Dad, I can cook/bandage/clean/change that. We don't need to ask Grandma to take care of it. Why don't you cook up a few of your famous hamburgers and I'll get the boy ready for dinner?" - and he's still a bit hesitant to watch his grandson when grandma's not home. But through his hindsight, he agrees that (1) the novelty doesn't wear off, it changes way too fast, (2) do it as much as you can, because time is limited, and (3) it definitely is the best. Though you may get a reprise as a grandparent someday, which is possibly even better because you can send them home with new noisy toys after they've been spoiled and are on a sugar high.
  - pcmoney 8y ago
    Thanks for the input, I am very thankful we have less pressure in our culture to follow traditional father roles. Not that those fathers were uncaring but they were expected to be a bit more removed and constrained than we are today. One thing is for sure is that time definitely goes by twice as fast!
TangoTrotFox 8y ago
Something I find bemusing are the never ending slew of studies that aim to evangelize 'new ideas' in parenting and child rearing contrasted against the negative changes in outcomes of children and young adults in the US today. Children and young adults in the US today are, compared to decades past, suffering sharp spikes in mental illness, obesity, as well as performing relatively worse academically and even exhibiting lower average IQ. It seems that something we have done or changed has resulted in an incredibly negative change in developmental outcomes. Yet there simultaneously seems to be no little to no effort to see what we were doing so well before, or what we're doing so poorly now in. Instead studies such this one instead seek to constantly demonize past practice and evangelize for new change for reasons that seem to be almost exclusively driven by ideological bias. Or shall we simply remain in denial?
- XorNot 8y ago
  Maybe it's the rise of all these men who use weasel words rather then presenting their argument and responding to criticism?
  - TangoTrotFox 8y ago
    This is perhaps the point. In science critiquing ideas is not what you do, at least beyond ensuring that they are logically consistent. Instead, you critique results. Relativity is something that, intuitively, sounds completely foolish and plainly absurd. Yet it is absolutely and completely correct, so far as we can currently determine. Or take penicillin - that treating infections with something that emerges as a byproduct of the blue green rot in decaying matter is a good idea is something that would run contrary to any person of any sensibility - and indeed, its utilization was actually neglected for many years after its discovery due to the presumption that such an illogical result simply could not be correct. In the social sciences this point has been lost since the inability to perform meaningful tests means all we're left with are ideas. Yet we can see quantifiable changes in society in the longrun over time and many of the views evangelized within the paper have certainly become more common place - with the authors going so far as to label them "the new ideals". Yet the results we can measure have been absolutely atrocious. But there seems to be little to no interest in consider why this may be. Instead it's onward to ever more new ideas supported by little more than intuition and studies that increasingly often cannot even be replicated built upon other studies that can't be replicated. And even this study builds upon that house of cards stating that previous studies trying to link what they linked were unsuccessful, yet with their 'new and improved' method of qualifying masculinity, they were able to finally show a link.
intothemild 8y ago
My parents were both teachers, I got a lot of time with them as such.. However my dad was just never interested in really spending time with us, other than a good 5 minutes then he was bored and wanted to do his thing. I spent A LOT of time with my mum, she taught me programming, and after a while I was teaching her newer stuff. My mum was the real MVP, my passion for everything comes from my mother. My father however.. well he would talk about loving to play games like pacman and galaga as a kid, but wouldn't play games with me.. Later after smartphones and facebook, he now just disappears completely. Now I'm a father, the difference is huge, I play with my daughter, I teach her stuff.. Recently I decided to build her first computer (shes 2, same age as I was when I first got to use a computer) .. so we together restored a Macintosh Classic, and upgraded it with modern components https://cherubini.casa/macintosh-classic-948301f14cbd https://cherubini.casa/macintosh-classic-948301f14cbd
- rahimnathwani 8y ago
  I'm curious which activities she's found most interesting, and most able to do. My son will be 2 in a few months.
- jordanmoconnor 8y ago
  Love this project! My son is turning two in August, and he loves smashing the keyboard on my laptop. Having a dedicated PC for him would be fun. And he'd love to help build it, I'm sure.
leethargo 8y ago
I feel like the article is pushing a false dichotomy between being a "tough guy" and caring for his children. Why can't I be warm, understanding and available to my children and still be a "tough guy" (with "toxic masculinity") towards strangers, or colleagues, or my team mates in the soccer club? After all, there is a very different level of trust within the family.
cs02rm0 8y ago
One of my earlier memories is my dad going away to GW1. And when it wasn't war it was training or night flying or exchanges or just on standby while we were away. After my dad left the air force he worked in Saudi for 10 years or so, during which I spent much of my time in boarding schools. Conversely I work from home and see my kids all the time, albeit they're still younger than my own memories. Only last week I had to two days work in London, about 3 hours commute each way, but I came home rather than stay in a hotel. It's rare we don't all sleep under the same roof. I don't see my dad as having negative masculine attributes though, or myself as being any better. He was often used as a threat by my mother when we were misbehaving, but more often than not we were just pleased to see each other when he came home. I'm proud of him and the decisions he made, he did the best for his family often to his own detriment and the choices I was able to make just weren't available to him. At 6'5 there reverse is also true, or I'd have been doing all I could to follow the same path.
- CalRobert 8y ago
  Sorry if I'm obtuse but I guess it's because that's too tall for the air force?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - friesen 8y ago
    Cockpits have maximum height limits. It varies by plane model.
  - cs02rm0 8y ago
    Yeah. At the time at least (this is also UK) you had to be under 6'1 for fast jets and although in theory you could be up to 6'4 for the big slow stuff or rotary wing initially they wouldn't know what aircraft type you'd be streamed for, so everyone had to be meet the lower height limit. I wasn't particularly interested in anything other than the fast jets either. That said, I was also told the measurement that really mattered was the thigh length (jokes about losing kneecaps against the canopy if you ejected). So you could potentially still be accepted if you were a little over 6'1 but carried more of your height in your torso and a doctor measured your thigh length as being below a limit. I figured I was way over though and my legs don't look particularly short for my height.
ratnakarsays 8y ago
and I think it's a good thing
ponderatul 8y ago
I don't want to take away from the results from the study. But it would be a great area to study the relationship between men and interaction with women, especially those displaying toxic femininity, in the context of fatherhood. Don't know if anyone coined the term toxic femininity, but it should obviously be a field of study, just as toxic masculinity is.
- Angostura 8y ago
  What would 'toxic femininity' look like?
  - belorn 8y ago
    If toxic masculinity is defined by exaggerated gender role behavior that is a negative for the individual and society, then toxic femininity should be defined in the exact same terms. Female gender role is strongly associated with motherhood and personal appearance so toxic femininity could for example be exaggeration of those aspects. Two examples would be possessiveness of children and the abuse of plastic surgery. The question is why people are using such gendered terms that so easily get perceived as derogatory if all we want is to a term to help discussions around exaggerated gender role behavior that causes negative effects. Personally I avoid using both and see those that do as pushing an agenda rather than addressing the core issue that we have gender roles and those have a negative impact on society.
  - ponderatul 8y ago
    You've probably seen it, there are certainly examples. Emotional manipulation of the husband, emotional manipulation of the child about the husband. I mean there are a lot of things someone displaying this type of behaviour, can do to hurt the relationship between the father and the child, even if she is the mother of the child.
- to_bpr 8y ago
  >Don't know if anyone coined the term toxic femininity, but it should obviously be a field of study Current Western society has placed women so high up on a pedestal that publicly leveling criticism at the gender in any aspect is detrimental to one's career and social standing. You're being flagged and downvoted for merely suggesting that not everything about femininity is positive. Let that sink in.
amelius 8y ago
Hypothesis: Today's dads behave more like kids, compared to previous generations. I mean, 40 year olds dress like teenagers (sneakers, t-shirt, jeans, sometimes a cap), they often have the same hobbies as teenagers (e.g. video gaming), and responsibility is low because there is a high level of social security.
- to_bpr 8y ago
  Interesting point. I don't think behaving more like kids is something confined to dads, or even men as a whole either. It seems modern adults are maturing far more slowly or even showing some signs of regression now. I don't have anything to compare it with, but grown men burning their evenings in front of a games console, playing games aimed at children, and grown women slathering pictures of themselves all over social media in an attempt to garner attention and social acceptance, with both groups seeming to want to be their kids' "buddies" more than ever, doesn't seem to be a positive direction for things to go in. Who knows. I may be bah humbugging here. I'm young enough that I can't reasonably say "in my day adults were adults!", just that the direction things appear to be going in (socially, and as role models for children) does not appear to be promising.
  - pavel_lishin 8y ago
    > I may be bah humbugging here. You are. Two things: 1. How is spending (not burning) an evening in front of the console any worse than spending it in front of the TV? 2. You're painting with a really, really broad brush there. Some grown men play a lot of video games, and some women post a lot on social media, but not all of them do, and in any case, I'm not entirely sure what the problem with socializing online is.
    - to_bpr 8y ago
      1: I'm not advocating in favour of spending it front of the TV. Both are a waste. 2: The damage being done by social media and the rise in narcissism, toward society at large, towards children and towards mental health, is pretty well documented at this point.
carc1n0gen 8y ago
I consider myself lucky that my dad had less conventional work hours. He would leave for work around 6:30 in the morning, and be home by 4. He was always able to help me with my homework, and do other activities.
chiefalchemist 8y ago
Simple question: But is this a positive? For the dads? The moms? And most importantly, the kids? More is more. More is not better.
- TheBeardKing 8y ago
  I don't imagine these kids growing up saying "I wish my dad hadn't spent so much time with me." Maybe in the helicopter parent sense, but an increase in quality time with your dad doesn't necessarily mean a decrease in independent play, or child-led play. If it does, then I would likely be concerned as there is mounting evidence that decreasing independence is not good for kids.
  - chiefalchemist 8y ago
    Whether the kids would say that or not is (semi) irrelevant to my point. You are a by-product of your parents. What you've learned from them - about life, as well as a model of parenting - often carries forward. The problem is this: you wanting to share what you've learned doesn't mean what you learned is worth sharing. In short, for some percentage of these kids, this increase could be bad news. The question is: How many? And in what way?
dreamache 8y ago
I run my own internet based business teaching full stack dev out of a bedroom converted to an office. My 2 daughters (5 & 8) are homeschooled. It can be extremely challenging at times trying to work, but I am able to be in their life a lot more than your average dad. I flew out to Cali to record a course last year and it was my first time away from my family for a few days. Before leaving, I thought it was going to be awesome to take a break from them. I realized just how damn attached I was to them during that time. I never experienced home sickness like that before. I was like a little baby.
ravenstine 8y ago
Although it's worrying if it's partly due to women being less involved with their children, on the face of it, I believe this is a good thing for both fathers and their children. Largely, I think it's a sign of the times. My generation's fathers came from an era where "hard work" was still considered a necessity for happiness. My own father as well as most of those of people I know work and worked very hard. Technology, the economy, and society changed significantly from the time that our fathers grew up to when we grew up, and we sons saw our fathers work countless hours, leaving us to wonder how life is even worth living if it's made up of overtime hours and a series of useless meetings. Despite my father being the type to overachieve in the workplace, I would not wish that kind of lifestyle on him. I know a lot of men my age who saw their fathers work slavishly and realized that it's not worth it for them to spend their early life working to promote someone else's excessive success. I'm sure there are women out there who feel the same about their labor in contrast to that of their fathers, although women are also working more than ever(outside of the home) so it's not as much their issue as that of men and their rapidly changing role in society.
- waisbrot 8y ago
  On average, child-care is so heavily tilted toward women that for many, doing a bit less would be good for their health. Also, it's not zero-sum -- parents can both be involved at the same time -- but I also enjoy the times when my wife is not around and my kids give me all the attention.

176 points by kevindeasis 8y ago

Gosh, even as an engaged father myself, pointed BS propaganda likes this makes me want to tell "Jon McBride" that he's a sorry excuse for a man, turning on his own gender for click bait and cheap validation. EDIT - Let me be clear. Pointed adjectives like "negative" with no explanation definitely point to the "toxic masculinity" narrative. And this line: "There are many ways to be a man — being a “tough guy” is associated with poor parenting, which can negatively affect children." is pure dribble.

philipkglass 8y ago

My dad lost his job when I was 7 years old and my sister was 5. He went through 5 years of un- and under-employment. It was harrowing for him and my mom. But he also said in his later years that he would not have been there to see his kids growing up if he'd maintained the steady career progression that he originally expected. I have many fond memories of doing things with my dad during those years. He showed me how to start programming the family Commodore 64 [1]. We did experiments from books of science fair projects -- not for science fairs, just to satisfy my curiosity. We went on camping and fishing trips during summers and school vacations. When I visited friends' houses their dads didn't show up until later in the evening. They were also usually too tired from work to play or work on projects with us like my dad did when I had friends over. I wouldn't wish involuntary unemployment on anyone. My family was lucky that my dad found steady salaried work again before the savings account was completely drained. The stress could have broken a weaker marriage. But I also got something from my dad's extra availability that I wouldn't even have known to miss until adulthood otherwise. Kids will remember and cherish extra engagement with them, whether the time you put in is planned or not. [1] I partially credit my own career to his early help with programming. My friends growing up used 8 bit home computers too. But they didn't have dads working through the C64 Programmer's Reference Guide with them. They learned just enough to load/run software and I learned to write my own. I know that some kids can just pick up a teach-yourself book and learn simple programming on their own. 9-year-old me couldn't. I needed help from my dad. (Thanks, Dad. I miss you.)

patrickdavey 8y ago
That's a really lovely story, thanks for sharing it. Wish I could upvote twice :)
52-6F-62 8y ago
You were very lucky in more ways than the one. That's a great story, though. Those kinds of memories and meaning in your work are priceless. My father was overworking most of the time due to his career as a pipefitter for Imperial Oil. He spent two terms unemployed— once when we moved to our small SW Ontario town (long story why), and another during an illness that lasted about a year. Because my mother had left her career in insurance to look after us, our college savings were depleted (the last thing they touched to make payments). I don't remember the times he was unemployed very much. Much of my family was ill at the same time he was and I spent a lot of time looking after them (with my thoroughly tough mother)— otherwise he was driving an 2-3 hours round-trip to the union hall every day to try and find contract work. So I didn't see much of the guy when I was young, and when I did he was exhausted and often cranky. There were some great moments in there, and he still taught me as much as he could while I was there, but I'm just remarking on the work and unemployment and family time thing. Funnily, I got into programming because my mother had an [name I don't remember] 80286 from her work as an insurance analyst and I dug right into that machine. Then the internet finally came to town... .. Really, thanks for sharing that.
- philipkglass 8y ago
  You were very lucky in more ways than the one. Most definitely. I get a bit of existential vertigo when I think about how much of my often-happy life has depended on luck. It intensifies when I consider how many of those lucky circumstances were determined before my birth.
  - 52-6F-62 8y ago
    Existential vertigo— I’m going to have to remember that term

Karishma1234 8y ago

I believe that is a side effect of increased productivity and prosperity but is this study conditioned on the children having dads in first place? Because I believe single mother phenomenon is on a rapid rise in USA. What about children who dont know their dads ?

ksenzee 8y ago
They were studying fathers, so their denominator was fathers, not children. There's plenty of research showing that fathers make a big difference in their children's lives and happiness. From what I can tell this study doesn't speak to that one way or the other.
- Karishma1234 8y ago
  My point has been that even though fathers are spending more time with children on an average all children are receiving lesser fatherly attention on an average. May be fathers who love children are staying in marriage thus giving a bias to the whole study.
  - bobwaycott 8y ago
    Many of us fathers who spend a lot of time with our children are single.
  - dsnuh 8y ago
    > all children are receiving lesser fatherly attention on an average Provide some facts to back up this claim. > May be fathers who love children are staying in marriage It sounds like you are saying that fathers that leave marriages don't love their children? Is that what you are saying?
    - Karishma1234 8y ago
      > It sounds like you are saying that fathers that leave marriages don't love their children? Is that what you are saying? There is this excellent tool called google that can help you get all the numbers. You should consider using it Sir. Check this resource: http://www.fathers.com/statistics-and-research/the-extent-of-fatherlessness/ http://www.fathers.com/statistics-and-research/the-extent-of... Let us just consider African Americans. around 70% of Black children born last year did not have a father. Are you saying these people loved the children and yet for some unknown reason would not be present to take care of the child or provide child support ? As of today 1 in 3 children in USA are growing up in a household without a father. Are these fathers spending time with their kids ? You tell me.

delbel 8y ago

I was trying to understand andrewclunn now dead comment below. Basically he was saying there was no need for the author of the article (not the study) to write "toxic masculinity" narrative. When I clicked on the PDF, to scan for the word "toxic" I was unable to open the PDF. Did the author of the article Jon McBride artificially put this narrative spin on the study? If so, I don't understand why somebody would do this. Studies like this bring us wonderful news, there is no need to add negative connotation. Sure the tone of andrewclunn comment is debatable, but given he is a father, I think he is entitled to be upset about this because I am also. What do you think HN.

evilantnie 8y ago
I don't see the comment you're referring to, but McBride was quoting one of the authors of the study. Technically this isn't "spin", Toxic Masculinity and Hegemonic Masculinity are both fields of study in psychology having to do with promotion of dominance and violence. I think both fields influenced this study. It looks like they developed a Parent-Child-Conflict scale that included spanking, hitting, or threatening physical harm to measure some of this, but the study is much more broader than just this.
- mi100hael 8y ago
  Spanking is considered to be a "toxic" display of masculinity these days?
  - zxcmx 8y ago
    It’s against the law in New Zealand for example. You may restrain a child for their safety but the use of force for “parental correction” is treated as assault and can be prosecuted. The police are encouraged to apply discretion.
    - germinalphrase 8y ago
      Generally speaking, It is not illegal in the US unless you leave visible marks (e.g. bruises). Even then, it would be reported but little action would be taken unless there are additional issues with the child’s safety. It is still common in many places for a “whooping” to be used to keep kids in line.

rconti 8y ago

My employer just increased their family leave from 12 weeks to 20 weeks, which is a great perk. These days nobody seems to differentiate from maternity vs paternity leave, which is a great idea because, aside from the value it provides fathers, it also gets rid of the idea that the mother should get more time because mothers should be more involved. (alas, you can argue that it ignores the physical sacrifices the mother makes, but as long as there is parity by raising men's leave up rather than reducing a woman's leave, who can argue with it?) I don't have kids but I've often thought if I could get 6-12 months off for having a kid it would change the equation from impossible burden to work around to actually a pleasurable experience to learn/grow/bond/etc.

monocasa 8y ago
Additionally, equal paternity leave is a great thing for women's rights too. When employers will see the same leave for their employees when they have a child regardless of gender, then there's less of a rational reason to discriminate against women in the hiring process.
- GuiA 8y ago
  This is very important. I once worked for the CEO of a startup who told me that he was hesitant to hire women because if they got pregnant “it’d totally screw us over”.
  - CalRobert 8y ago
    This CEO should suffer legal consequences.
    - Simon_says 8y ago
      No, we should change the law on maternity leave.
    - to_bpr 8y ago
      If a startup is running on tight runway then female staff getting pregnant could be massively detrimental. In many civilized parts of the world, a female employee getting pregnant will mean disruption during the pregnancy to accommodate doctor's visits and health issues, and then months of paid leave PLUS having to pay to backfill their position with a temp, plus the costs of recruiting and ramping up said temp. That's a huge hit for an early stage startup to take.

camelCaseOfBeer 8y ago

Seems legit but I can't be the only person who raised an eyebrow at the fact this study originated from BYU, imagining the researchers surveying a bunch of dorks in cargo shorts at a church picnic. Don't judge me, I'm enitled to my snortling.

NDizzle 8y ago

I left the bay area in 2013 when my third kid was born. I'm about 110 miles north now. I expected that as I withdrew from long office hours, replacing it with remote work, my income stagnate (or go down). The opposite happened - my income has actually gone up steadily. Towards the point of this topic - I have been able to spend a lot of time with my kids. We walk (or bike) to and from school, I coach sports, and I'm able to see all of the recitals, performances, and various events. My kids are age 12, 7, and 5 for those wondering. I do work quite a bit, but the work is performed at odd hours, and not during prime family hours. It helps to find companies that is geared towards projects and your performance over the long or medium term, rather than people who want to see butts-in-chairs when they are at the office. I encourage everyone to try to replace their commutes with more time with loved ones. Move your working hours around, if at all possible.

ktross 8y ago
I’m a newly single parent, and I’ve been considering my options in regards to remote work. Are you employed full time by a single company or do you find freelance work? The challenge and time investment of finding new clients constantly has me leaning away from freelancing. I haven’t yet been able to find a full time position that’s flexible enough (results based) though.
- liveoneggs 8y ago
  I have a "regular" (9-5) remote job and a wife who works full time. Working from home has been very helpful for childcare activities. I pick up my kids at 2-3 pm and then get a babysitter for the afternoons while I am still working until 5ish. This ends up being, basically, just a late lunch. If things go south with my babysitter the kids can play or watch tv while I finish up the day and it's not a big deal to occasionally do. I would try to get a stable/full-time job at a family friendly company, but that's just me all the time. Health care is expensive.
- NDizzle 8y ago
  A little of both. I do the minimum number of full time hours to get insurance benefits, and then I have a part time job at another tech company. Both of those things are very rare. It took me some time to work things out between the two entities. I did have some time to work on pet projects and freelance-style (usually free) projects prior to the kids starting sports.

epx 8y ago

I am the 'good cop' here in da house :D

eiji 8y ago

Study: Today’s moms are engaging less with their kids

pcmoney 8y ago

I’m a relatively new dad so maybe the novelty just hasn’t worn off but I can’t understand fathers who don’t interact with their kids. I do it as much as I can, it’s the best. Not always easy but always good.

LeifCarrotson 8y ago
I'm a new dad too, but my father is a 30-year veteran of fatherdom, with the benefit of some new experience as a grandfather thrown in. He and I recently had a heart-to-heart about this. He lamented that he didn't spend more time with me when I was an infant, a toddler, and a kid - he left that to my mother, due to a socially conditioned view of tasks like changing diapers as her responsibility. He still has an instinct to ask my mother whenever my son needs something, and I remind him "No, Dad, I can cook/bandage/clean/change that. We don't need to ask Grandma to take care of it. Why don't you cook up a few of your famous hamburgers and I'll get the boy ready for dinner?" - and he's still a bit hesitant to watch his grandson when grandma's not home. But through his hindsight, he agrees that (1) the novelty doesn't wear off, it changes way too fast, (2) do it as much as you can, because time is limited, and (3) it definitely is the best. Though you may get a reprise as a grandparent someday, which is possibly even better because you can send them home with new noisy toys after they've been spoiled and are on a sugar high.
- pcmoney 8y ago
  Thanks for the input, I am very thankful we have less pressure in our culture to follow traditional father roles. Not that those fathers were uncaring but they were expected to be a bit more removed and constrained than we are today. One thing is for sure is that time definitely goes by twice as fast!

TangoTrotFox 8y ago

Something I find bemusing are the never ending slew of studies that aim to evangelize 'new ideas' in parenting and child rearing contrasted against the negative changes in outcomes of children and young adults in the US today. Children and young adults in the US today are, compared to decades past, suffering sharp spikes in mental illness, obesity, as well as performing relatively worse academically and even exhibiting lower average IQ. It seems that something we have done or changed has resulted in an incredibly negative change in developmental outcomes. Yet there simultaneously seems to be no little to no effort to see what we were doing so well before, or what we're doing so poorly now in. Instead studies such this one instead seek to constantly demonize past practice and evangelize for new change for reasons that seem to be almost exclusively driven by ideological bias. Or shall we simply remain in denial?

XorNot 8y ago
Maybe it's the rise of all these men who use weasel words rather then presenting their argument and responding to criticism?
- TangoTrotFox 8y ago
  This is perhaps the point. In science critiquing ideas is not what you do, at least beyond ensuring that they are logically consistent. Instead, you critique results. Relativity is something that, intuitively, sounds completely foolish and plainly absurd. Yet it is absolutely and completely correct, so far as we can currently determine. Or take penicillin - that treating infections with something that emerges as a byproduct of the blue green rot in decaying matter is a good idea is something that would run contrary to any person of any sensibility - and indeed, its utilization was actually neglected for many years after its discovery due to the presumption that such an illogical result simply could not be correct. In the social sciences this point has been lost since the inability to perform meaningful tests means all we're left with are ideas. Yet we can see quantifiable changes in society in the longrun over time and many of the views evangelized within the paper have certainly become more common place - with the authors going so far as to label them "the new ideals". Yet the results we can measure have been absolutely atrocious. But there seems to be little to no interest in consider why this may be. Instead it's onward to ever more new ideas supported by little more than intuition and studies that increasingly often cannot even be replicated built upon other studies that can't be replicated. And even this study builds upon that house of cards stating that previous studies trying to link what they linked were unsuccessful, yet with their 'new and improved' method of qualifying masculinity, they were able to finally show a link.

intothemild 8y ago

My parents were both teachers, I got a lot of time with them as such.. However my dad was just never interested in really spending time with us, other than a good 5 minutes then he was bored and wanted to do his thing. I spent A LOT of time with my mum, she taught me programming, and after a while I was teaching her newer stuff. My mum was the real MVP, my passion for everything comes from my mother. My father however.. well he would talk about loving to play games like pacman and galaga as a kid, but wouldn't play games with me.. Later after smartphones and facebook, he now just disappears completely. Now I'm a father, the difference is huge, I play with my daughter, I teach her stuff.. Recently I decided to build her first computer (shes 2, same age as I was when I first got to use a computer) .. so we together restored a Macintosh Classic, and upgraded it with modern components https://cherubini.casa/macintosh-classic-948301f14cbd https://cherubini.casa/macintosh-classic-948301f14cbd

rahimnathwani 8y ago
I'm curious which activities she's found most interesting, and most able to do. My son will be 2 in a few months.
jordanmoconnor 8y ago
Love this project! My son is turning two in August, and he loves smashing the keyboard on my laptop. Having a dedicated PC for him would be fun. And he'd love to help build it, I'm sure.

leethargo 8y ago

I feel like the article is pushing a false dichotomy between being a "tough guy" and caring for his children. Why can't I be warm, understanding and available to my children and still be a "tough guy" (with "toxic masculinity") towards strangers, or colleagues, or my team mates in the soccer club? After all, there is a very different level of trust within the family.

cs02rm0 8y ago

One of my earlier memories is my dad going away to GW1. And when it wasn't war it was training or night flying or exchanges or just on standby while we were away. After my dad left the air force he worked in Saudi for 10 years or so, during which I spent much of my time in boarding schools. Conversely I work from home and see my kids all the time, albeit they're still younger than my own memories. Only last week I had to two days work in London, about 3 hours commute each way, but I came home rather than stay in a hotel. It's rare we don't all sleep under the same roof. I don't see my dad as having negative masculine attributes though, or myself as being any better. He was often used as a threat by my mother when we were misbehaving, but more often than not we were just pleased to see each other when he came home. I'm proud of him and the decisions he made, he did the best for his family often to his own detriment and the choices I was able to make just weren't available to him. At 6'5 there reverse is also true, or I'd have been doing all I could to follow the same path.

CalRobert 8y ago
Sorry if I'm obtuse but I guess it's because that's too tall for the air force?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- friesen 8y ago
  Cockpits have maximum height limits. It varies by plane model.
- cs02rm0 8y ago
  Yeah. At the time at least (this is also UK) you had to be under 6'1 for fast jets and although in theory you could be up to 6'4 for the big slow stuff or rotary wing initially they wouldn't know what aircraft type you'd be streamed for, so everyone had to be meet the lower height limit. I wasn't particularly interested in anything other than the fast jets either. That said, I was also told the measurement that really mattered was the thigh length (jokes about losing kneecaps against the canopy if you ejected). So you could potentially still be accepted if you were a little over 6'1 but carried more of your height in your torso and a doctor measured your thigh length as being below a limit. I figured I was way over though and my legs don't look particularly short for my height.

ratnakarsays 8y ago

and I think it's a good thing

ponderatul 8y ago

I don't want to take away from the results from the study. But it would be a great area to study the relationship between men and interaction with women, especially those displaying toxic femininity, in the context of fatherhood. Don't know if anyone coined the term toxic femininity, but it should obviously be a field of study, just as toxic masculinity is.

Angostura 8y ago
What would 'toxic femininity' look like?
- belorn 8y ago
  If toxic masculinity is defined by exaggerated gender role behavior that is a negative for the individual and society, then toxic femininity should be defined in the exact same terms. Female gender role is strongly associated with motherhood and personal appearance so toxic femininity could for example be exaggeration of those aspects. Two examples would be possessiveness of children and the abuse of plastic surgery. The question is why people are using such gendered terms that so easily get perceived as derogatory if all we want is to a term to help discussions around exaggerated gender role behavior that causes negative effects. Personally I avoid using both and see those that do as pushing an agenda rather than addressing the core issue that we have gender roles and those have a negative impact on society.
- ponderatul 8y ago
  You've probably seen it, there are certainly examples. Emotional manipulation of the husband, emotional manipulation of the child about the husband. I mean there are a lot of things someone displaying this type of behaviour, can do to hurt the relationship between the father and the child, even if she is the mother of the child.
to_bpr 8y ago
>Don't know if anyone coined the term toxic femininity, but it should obviously be a field of study Current Western society has placed women so high up on a pedestal that publicly leveling criticism at the gender in any aspect is detrimental to one's career and social standing. You're being flagged and downvoted for merely suggesting that not everything about femininity is positive. Let that sink in.

amelius 8y ago

Hypothesis: Today's dads behave more like kids, compared to previous generations. I mean, 40 year olds dress like teenagers (sneakers, t-shirt, jeans, sometimes a cap), they often have the same hobbies as teenagers (e.g. video gaming), and responsibility is low because there is a high level of social security.

to_bpr 8y ago
Interesting point. I don't think behaving more like kids is something confined to dads, or even men as a whole either. It seems modern adults are maturing far more slowly or even showing some signs of regression now. I don't have anything to compare it with, but grown men burning their evenings in front of a games console, playing games aimed at children, and grown women slathering pictures of themselves all over social media in an attempt to garner attention and social acceptance, with both groups seeming to want to be their kids' "buddies" more than ever, doesn't seem to be a positive direction for things to go in. Who knows. I may be bah humbugging here. I'm young enough that I can't reasonably say "in my day adults were adults!", just that the direction things appear to be going in (socially, and as role models for children) does not appear to be promising.
- pavel_lishin 8y ago
  > I may be bah humbugging here. You are. Two things: 1. How is spending (not burning) an evening in front of the console any worse than spending it in front of the TV? 2. You're painting with a really, really broad brush there. Some grown men play a lot of video games, and some women post a lot on social media, but not all of them do, and in any case, I'm not entirely sure what the problem with socializing online is.
  - to_bpr 8y ago
    1: I'm not advocating in favour of spending it front of the TV. Both are a waste. 2: The damage being done by social media and the rise in narcissism, toward society at large, towards children and towards mental health, is pretty well documented at this point.

carc1n0gen 8y ago

I consider myself lucky that my dad had less conventional work hours. He would leave for work around 6:30 in the morning, and be home by 4. He was always able to help me with my homework, and do other activities.

chiefalchemist 8y ago

Simple question: But is this a positive? For the dads? The moms? And most importantly, the kids? More is more. More is not better.

TheBeardKing 8y ago
I don't imagine these kids growing up saying "I wish my dad hadn't spent so much time with me." Maybe in the helicopter parent sense, but an increase in quality time with your dad doesn't necessarily mean a decrease in independent play, or child-led play. If it does, then I would likely be concerned as there is mounting evidence that decreasing independence is not good for kids.
- chiefalchemist 8y ago
  Whether the kids would say that or not is (semi) irrelevant to my point. You are a by-product of your parents. What you've learned from them - about life, as well as a model of parenting - often carries forward. The problem is this: you wanting to share what you've learned doesn't mean what you learned is worth sharing. In short, for some percentage of these kids, this increase could be bad news. The question is: How many? And in what way?

dreamache 8y ago

I run my own internet based business teaching full stack dev out of a bedroom converted to an office. My 2 daughters (5 & 8) are homeschooled. It can be extremely challenging at times trying to work, but I am able to be in their life a lot more than your average dad. I flew out to Cali to record a course last year and it was my first time away from my family for a few days. Before leaving, I thought it was going to be awesome to take a break from them. I realized just how damn attached I was to them during that time. I never experienced home sickness like that before. I was like a little baby.

ravenstine 8y ago

Although it's worrying if it's partly due to women being less involved with their children, on the face of it, I believe this is a good thing for both fathers and their children. Largely, I think it's a sign of the times. My generation's fathers came from an era where "hard work" was still considered a necessity for happiness. My own father as well as most of those of people I know work and worked very hard. Technology, the economy, and society changed significantly from the time that our fathers grew up to when we grew up, and we sons saw our fathers work countless hours, leaving us to wonder how life is even worth living if it's made up of overtime hours and a series of useless meetings. Despite my father being the type to overachieve in the workplace, I would not wish that kind of lifestyle on him. I know a lot of men my age who saw their fathers work slavishly and realized that it's not worth it for them to spend their early life working to promote someone else's excessive success. I'm sure there are women out there who feel the same about their labor in contrast to that of their fathers, although women are also working more than ever(outside of the home) so it's not as much their issue as that of men and their rapidly changing role in society.

waisbrot 8y ago
On average, child-care is so heavily tilted toward women that for many, doing a bit less would be good for their health. Also, it's not zero-sum -- parents can both be involved at the same time -- but I also enjoy the times when my wife is not around and my kids give me all the attention.