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Librarian wins surprise judgement against Equifax in small claims court
- jimhefferon 8y agoNice. Very Vermonty.
- jessamyn 8y agoI was happy with how this went and the coverage has been nice.
- alex_young 8y agoGood for you! I'm interested in your perspective on the small claims route vs. class action. It seems like a class action suit has the potential to have a larger impact on Equifax since the size of it would be so large, but it's sad to see individual amounts so low in most of them.
- jessamyn 8y agoI sort of feel "let a million lawsuits bloom" I think there's a usefulness in the death by 1000 cuts approach and I think there will be class action cases whether or not 100 or 1000 people decide to sue in small claims. I also think the schema is a little different (tho I am not a lawyer) so you can make somewhat different arguments and claims.
- freeopinion 8y agoIt would be so much more gratifying to see 50000 people sue individually and have Equifax have to staff 50000 individual cases. They could choose to defend for more than $5K per case win or lose, or they could just pay out $5K to each litigant. Equifax would beg for a class action where they get off for $500/litigant + a couple million to the winning attorneys.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- acchow 8y ago> Equifax would beg for a class action where they get off for $500/litigant + a couple million to the winning attorneys. But this plaintiff only got $600
- jessamyn 8y agoAnd they had to send a lawyer from Atlanta to Vermont which probably at least tripled that. Not saying it's not small change, just saying there are other costs.
- marcell 8y agoHow hard is this to replicate? Could anyone do it?
- jessamyn 8y agoAccess to the courts is something guaranteed by the Constitution (standard disclaimer about the shape THAT's in). Usually googling "File a small claims case" and your state name will get you started. Here are the steps. http://www.civillawselfhelpcenter.org/self-help/small-claims/suing-someone-in-small-claims/107-filing-your-small-claims-case http://www.civillawselfhelpcenter.org/self-help/small-claims...
- forapurpose 8y agoAnswered like a librarian - with a link to an actual useful, authoritative resource. Perhaps YC can hire one to chip in to each discussion (I started typing that sentence tongue-in-cheek, but now I'm thinking that it would be fantastic. Imagine someone who added useful, authoritative resources to each discussion - rather than my having to skim through the crowd-sourced noise looking for the signal).
- orthecreedence 8y agoI filed a small claim against a property management company that tried to screw me. It's actually really easy. It takes a while (I remember the wait time being about 6 months), and you have to pay $50-100 to file and have the court "serve" the defendant, but honestly that's a pretty small fee considering you have the entire weight of the US legal system backing you if you're successful.
- icebraining 8y agoIs the company liable for the fee if they lose?
- orthecreedence 8y agoGood question, I don't actually know. I think it's possible to make it part of the claim.
- plantsbeans 8y agoThis is not exactly related to your lawsuit, but I gather from your Twitter feed that these days, librarians are spending a lot of time helping people use computers and especially the Internet. I don't go to the library hardly ever these days, but I have heard of this phenomenon elsewhere, too.
- jessamyn 8y agoYep, it's a really useful thing libraries and librarians-without-libraries spend a lot of time doing. We're often good at teaching things that are poorly documented or that people assume "anyone can use." I'm a huge fan of tech and the people who build it but they're not always the best educators, y'know?
- mherdeg 8y agoDid you get any sense of whether or not Equifax intends to appeal the decision? There was some discussion about 6 months ago -- https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/7h9tn2/i_sued_equifax_and_won_they_filed_an_appeal_whats/ https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/7h9tn2/i_sued_... -- suggesting that it looked like their strategy might be to lose in small claims court but to appeal any decision against them. (And see also https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/7lz38l/tried_to_sue_equifax_for_data_breaches_just_got_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/7lz38l/tried_t... which seemed … more like it might be fan fiction rather than a real story.)
- jessamyn 8y agoThey sent me a W-9. I do not think they plan to appeal.
- un-devmox 8y agoWould it have been possible to bring up the stress and anxiety this data breach has caused? Personally, this has been the case.
- jessamyn 8y agoI definitely tried to (last year was such a shitty year!) but there wasn't a lot of traction for that. Maybe if I had brought in therapist bills and said "Reimburse me"
- blakesterz 8y agoYay! Congrats :-)
- pmoriarty 8y agoIs there a way we could see what your court filing looked like (with all the personal info redacted, of course)? I'm considering making a filing myself, and would like to use yours as a model (if that's allowed). Also, does anyone know if precedent matters in small claims court? Would a small claims court in California care that another small claims court in Vermont ruled a certain way in a similar case?
- jessamyn 8y agoI think I put the bulk of it on my Medium post you can read here. It was surprisingly not a lot of stuff. https://medium.com/@jessamyn/suing-equifax-in-small-claims-court-3f7c584e5717 https://medium.com/@jessamyn/suing-equifax-in-small-claims-c...
- jkaplowitz 8y agoI'm just a non-lawyer law geek (and former law student), but my understanding is: precedent does matter in small claims court to the same extent as in regular court, but rules of procedure and evidence are relaxed, the ability to appeal the judgment can be limited (not always zero), and the judges sometimes have less training than in regular courts. A lot of these specifics are determined by laws which vary by state, but I don't think any states formally take a different approach to precedent in small claims specifically. As for California vs Vermont, those are in different states and under the jurisdiction of different federal courts of appeals. Therefore the only directly binding judicial precedents shared between them would be from the US Supreme Court (and some from England at the time of US independence). However, if there's no controlling binding precedent, most courts would be willing to consider other states' sufficiently relevant judgments at a persuasive but non-binding level.
- pmoriarty 8y ago"if there's no controlling binding precedent, most courts would be willing to consider other states' sufficiently relevant judgments at a persuasive but non-binding level." It sounds like it could be useful to have some sort of database or clearinghouse of data breach cases won against Equifax in small claims court, so they can be referred to in one's filings as relevant judgements.
- SilasX 8y agoThe floodgates to open soon? >Though it’s unclear whether Equifax’s bottom line is being affected, news agencies across the country have reported a flurry of class action lawsuits and small claims court cases against the company in recent months. A Stanford University student made headlines nationwide when he created an online application that streamlined the process to file against the company, and some cases reportedly have been resolved against the company for up to $10,000 each.
- rectang 8y agoThere could be nothing more satisfying than seeing Equifax washed over by a tsunami of small claims cases. Is there a how-to out there for filing in small claims court against Equifax?
- syshum 8y agoDont worry, if it ever does effect equifax's bottom line the government will just award them more contracts.... Equifax is "too big to fail" and the government will ensure it does not
- NickM 8y agoI wouldn't be so sure about that. The phrase "too big to fail" referred to the idea that certain banks are so big that their failure would severely damage the economy, to the point that it was worth propping them up at all costs. Equifax is just a credit reporting agency though, and they're not the only big one that exists, so I doubt the loss of Equifax would cause enough collateral damage to justify a government intervention.
- syshum 8y agoIRS has already granted them millions in contracts Post Data Breach with more on the way > The phrase "too big to fail" referred to the idea that certain banks are so big Yes, thank you Mr Technicality for the explanation. The fact of the matter is Crony Capitalism existed before the bank bailouts and continues to exist, "Too big to fail" is more of a Meme now to refer to the concept of Government bailing out business, and does not refer to a point in history or a single act by government
- paulcole 8y agoFor anyone who doesn't know who Jessamyn West is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessamyn_West_(librarian) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessamyn_West_(librarian)
- kolpa 8y agoAnyone know what justifies this uncited claim: "best known as [...] and for her unconventional views on her profession" Everything librarian-related on that page (anti-censorship, pro-free-speech, pro-privacy) is standard librarian culture that I remember since I was young.
- jessamyn 8y agoWhen that article was originally written I think it had to do with coming out very strongly against the USA PATRIOT Act which seems like pretty standard stuff now but in the wake of 9/11 being really mouthy about it was less typical.
- bthrm 8y agoSo it’s not “a librarian”, but someone with lots of money, education, connections, time...
- rectang 8y ago> “I would go to dinner and they would say ‘Equifax! Crazy! Nothing you can do,’” she recalled. Exactly what we hear around here, too.
- craftyguy 8y agoShe only won compensation for identity insurance she had paid for. So, TBH, unless folks are willing to pay for identity insurance and give a lot of personal information to yet another damn company, there's still nothing the rest of us can do that don't want to do that other than wait around for our identity is stolen so we can sue for damages.. Edit: if you disagree, I'd love to hear how we can hit back. Because I've not found a way, nor seen anyone else do so in a way that doesn't require what West did in this article (paying for some service). Edit2: I misunderstood, she did not have to pay for insurance to win.
- jessamyn 8y agoI know this is nitpicking but I did not pay for any identity insurance. I said that if I had to, it would cost this amount and offered low end and high end costs for this. The judge decided to add these numbers together as if I had paid for it and awarded that to me (and I was clear about this in court, I did not fudge it to make it look like I had paid)
- craftyguy 8y agoI see, thanks for the clarification. That means pretty much anyone would have a chance of doing similar!
- insulanus 8y agoThank you. That is really important information; it means some justice can be had without paying back into the very industry that caused the mess in the first place.
- rosser 8y agoThe point is less what she won, than it is that she won.
- mxuribe 8y agoI love it when "the little guy/girl" wins! So, maybe this is a good strategy to put these big firms on notice: 1. Exert plenty of PR pressure to broadcast the wrong that big firm did. 2. Launch tons of small claims court cases. 3. Firms lose money flying paralegals (or other legal staff) around the country for small claims court appearances. 4. Or, these firms lose money paying out all these awards at small claims court. 5. Congress - seeing this widespread ire/angst and related court action - springs into action legislatively, and enacts laws to better protect citizens. LOL ok maybe that's too fantastically fictional. ;-)
- bilbo0s 8y ago"...5. Congress - seeing this widespread ire/angst and related court action - springs into action legislatively, and enacts laws to better protect citizens...." ...or they spring into action to enact laws to better protect Equifax. Which do you think is more likely?
- sattoshi 8y agoWhy would Congress do either of those things? Isn't it the judicial system working as intended?
- __jal 8y ago> Isn't it the judicial system working as intended? If you're a large firm who makes money by gossiping about people, you might be very concerned about it working as intended. They've successfully lobbied for an exception to libel law so you can't sue them for telling lies about you; buying a congressional pass as proof against this sort of responsibility is hardly a stretch.
- URSpider94 8y agoWhen the judicial system begins working too efficiently is exactly when the legislative branch often steps in. Think "tort reform" (make it harder for people to sue companies), the legislative immunity for gun manufacturers that immunizes them against product liability, and on the other side of the scale in my mind, the legal prohibition against suing vaccine manufacturers for side effects except through a special "vaccine court". The legislative branch acts like the game designer of a MMORPG - they are constantly looking at the balance of power and nerfing/buffing as they see fit - and often with what we might consider a distorted sense of "fairness".
- itissid 8y agoEquifax is one of those companies that had a shitty solution to a really important problem. Its like a parasite sucking up money and from its host and not giving any thing to it except a headache. Somehow people in multinational consumer companies and Credit Cards think this parasite should be allowed to exist. Its worth killing this parasite if only to gain a small shot at rethinking the solution to this important problem.
- kolpa 8y agoWhy are companies paying Equifax if it isn't providing value to them?
- duncan_bayne 8y agoIn a nutshell, that's difference between capitalism and corporatism / fascism.
- darepublic 8y agoGovernment regulation + monopoly
- rectang 8y agoEquifax provides plenty of value to companies. The problem is that their business model creates massive negative externalities which are borne by individuals who have no business relationship with them. Equifax is analogous to a gross polluter.
- OldHand2018 8y agoCompanies like Equifax provide some amount of value somewhere along the line. Better alternatives don't generally succeed in markets like these because those that bear the most cost are not the same as those that capitalize on the value. I can give you an example of an information market that seems to operate in the same manner: bond rating agencies. I took a class that was taught by a seasoned finance veteran and he told us a story about when he ran the municipal bond desk at his agency. As it turns out, at his and every other finance company he knew, nobody gave any credibility to bond ratings when deciding to invest. Why would they? He told about the time that he called up one of the [well-known] agencies to talk about the rating process and was surprised to discover that they had a grand total of 15 employees for municipal bond ratings. How are 15 people maintaining accurate ratings for the tens of thousands of municipal bonds??? How can they provide value commensurate to the amount they charge to rate a bond? Well, actually... They don't actually directly charge that much money. The big cost is borne by the city issuing the bond in the form of higher interest rates. But why would a city pay money to have a worthless rating that forces them to pay higher interest rates? If a city sells a municipal bond and nobody shows up to the sale, did they really sell a municipal bond? Access to the marketplace is the difference between not selling a bond and selling a bond at a high interest rate. The gatekeepers to the marketplace want to have reasonable confidence that the bond is not a scam and reasonable confidence that the bond was issued in good faith. They also do not want to be in the position of deciding which cities should have access to the marketplace. So they've made a simple rule: any bond that gets rated by an agency they recognize can have access to the marketplace. The "value" of the bond rating goes mainly to the companies that make up the marketplace. The "cost" of the bond rating is paid by cities issuing bonds.
- jacob019 8y agoWinning is one thing collecting is another. I wouldn't be surprised if Equifax appeals and she never gets paid. I hope she does though!
- jessamyn 8y agoThey sent me a W-9 to fill out. I think they might actually pay.
- jacob019 8y agoEncouraging. Please let us know if/when you get a check.
- tonyztan 8y agoI won against them in small claims in Atlanta, and they sent me a W-9. I refused to fill it out and they still paid, after I got a court order approving a lien against their property. The judgment was for less than $200 though. (17MS094034, Fulton County Magistrate Court, Georgia.)
- xkcd-sucks 8y agoWonder how it affected her credit rating
- jessamyn 8y agoSo far it is holding firm in the 800+ range. This was part of my deal, my credit rating is GOOD and I'd like to hold on to it.
- craftyguy 8y agoHow do others follow in your footsteps, if that's at all possible? IMHO winning a battle is exciting, but teaching others to win more battles is essential to winning the war.
- jessamyn 8y agoI feel like a lot of it is changing the discussion. Like not everyone has the money, time and effort to be able to do a small claims thing, but there are a lot of things you can do. Teaching people to pull their credit reports, teaching them about risk assessment (I talk briefly about threat models when I do an online privacy talk at public libraries and I think it's useful to help people figure out "where do I fit into all this?") and how to get more information that they can trust. And, for this audience especially, try to be supportive and helpful getting people to figure out how to keep their information more private in a way that works for them. Most people aren't techie and that's OK and is going to stay that way. Help them be better at the things they need to do, with good, well-sourced information, don't just holler at them because they write passwords down or don't know the different between their Apple ID and their laptop login. Encourage them to look at the structures that underlie the systems that they use every day (frex: Google is the world's largest advertising agency and that should figure in to personal decisions about how much to interact with them). Above all, don't just bitch on the internet! I mean, sure do some of that, but that should be the beginning of your work to try to help yourself and other people deal with the situations we're in, not the end.
- kolpa 8y agoThe crux: > Lewis issued a court order that found West was owed money to cover the cost of up to two years of payments to online identity protection services So Equifax was liable for the insurance/protection that West bought out of fear for her financial safety. This is a fascinating solution to the problem that general plaintiff cannot sue until after they have provable harm. Instead of waiting for a rare $XXX loss and then suing for recovery, many plaintiffs can pay $X for insurance/protection and then sue for that cost.
- seanp2k2 8y agoThe thing is, who do you think owns the identity protection companies, and what do you give you if they fail to protect your identity?
- rhizome 8y agoWhy is that "the thing?"
- burkaman 8y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17307809 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17307809 She did not actually buy insurance, she just told the court what insurance would cost her.
- rectang 8y agoFrom what I understand, this is a difficult claim to sustain because it can be argued as speculative. (See Jessamyn's own writeup.) Would it be stronger to pay for credit freezes and then sue to get that money back? And would it still take a multi-thousand-dollar chunk out of Equifax to respond?
- thesagan 8y agoIn this specific sense I’m not sure that the insurance itself is considered speculative, but merely a way to minimize/manage the possibility of potential damages in a reasonable way. If I’m not mistaken, her write up addresses speculation as potential damages as estimated before they could be realized in an uninsured situation, or otherwise taken up by insurers themselves. The insurance is another thing altogether—a tool to mitigate that real and known risk right now. (I’m on mobile so I only glanced at her post.) That said, IANAL or an actuary.
- nvr219 8y agoNice one!
- ggg9990 8y agoThe use of the word “librarian” here seems designed to evoke stereotypes of a short old computer illiterate lady who fought The Man and won. Jessamyn West is not that kind of librarian — see her Wikipedia bio for more detail. It would be not more accurate but perhaps more clear to say “Well-known author and activist wins case against Equifax.”
- windows_tips 8y agoLibraries were computerized long ago. Why would you have a stereotype of "a short old computer illiterate lady"?
- coldseattle 8y agoBecause he's prejudiced / a bigot?
- corobo 8y agoHonestly I had that stereotype loaded in mind myself too. I think it's probably because I've not been in a library since the days of librarians being short old computer illiterate people All my book needs were digitised long before our local library caught up, and then of course Amazon happened
- windows_tips 8y agoHow old are you?
- corobo 8y ago30 on the dot this year
- icebraining 8y agohttps://youtu.be/D9tP9fI2zbE?t=2m47s https://youtu.be/D9tP9fI2zbE?t=2m47s
- stordoff 8y ago
- lifeisstillgood 8y agoThe plaintiff (librarian) has a write up here - https://medium.com/@jessamyn/equifax-statement-for-small-claims-court-780d2608e752 https://medium.com/@jessamyn/equifax-statement-for-small-cla... and interestingly says they probably would have been better off if they had paid for credit monitoring and then asking for those dollars back. I do pay for that ... hmmm ...
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- spraak 8y agoNot to say one is better than another, but this guy got $7990 from his case https://blog.legalist.com/i-won-8-000-from-equifax-in-small-claims-court-heres-how-you-can-too-f0ce6925c079 https://blog.legalist.com/i-won-8-000-from-equifax-in-small-...
- craftyguy 8y agoSure, but the most important thing here is sticking it to equifax one way or another. They've yet to pay in any meaningful way for their fiasco (put nicely and shit).
- brownbat 8y agoKudos. The award seems familiar... a year of lifelock and identity protection, with other future damages still too speculative. Is lifelock sufficient to prevent malfeasance from stolen SSNs? I honestly don't know how effective it is, but it is part of the default post breach response. If it is sufficient, maybe the SSA should just be responsible for providing the equivalent to everyone. That way we can stop expecting unprotectable data to be protected. (Not to let Equifax off the hook, they were the point of failure in this case, but the system is also broken in aggregate.) Or, if lifelock doesn't work, we should stop pretending it does, and not be satisfied with it as a post breach measure, and not waste money on it either. Maybe SSA needs to ultimately move to some asymmetric solution like Estonia has. They've had a few bumps with that, but they're trying, and in comparison, we have basically no reasonable answer for situations that require revocation or private/public solutions. (Ie, your public SSN is the last four digits, and your private SSN is shared with almost everyone you transact with. Recommend a system like that to anyone studying information theory and you will get a drink thrown in your face.)
- URSpider94 8y agoNote, she won $5000, based on what she would have paid to subscribe to a raft of identity protection services. She did not in fact have to subscribe to any of those services to receive the award (and she stated elsewhere in this thread that she didn't do so).