4 ms·

How many tech workers would like their terms of employment, including compensation, to be decided by negotiations between a union and a company?

influx 8y ago
Can you imagine pay, promotion, and assignment by seniority instead of skill? Doesn't sound very appealing to me.
- walshemj 8y ago
  I don't know where you get that idea from its not my experience working as an M&P grade in a unionised company in the UK.
  - mark_edward 8y ago
    Don't worry, the American Enterprise Institute and other business groups have produced plenty of educational material on how unions work.
  - djrogers 8y ago
    > I don't know where you get that idea from Virtually every union in the US > its not my experience working as an M&P grade in a unionised company in the UK. Yeah. Tesla isn't based in the UK, nor are the wroker in question here.
    - walshemj 8y ago
      Actually worked at place with professional unions in the USA? And I suspect the vast majority of imported H1b's would love a seniority "buggins turn" system.
- vkou 8y ago
  This is not a necessary requirement for a union. It is quite possible to charter a union which does not make any seniority expectations of their employer. You can, for instance form a union, whose sole purpose is bargaining for pay bands in a company with well-defined job roles. You can form a union that only fights 'arbitrary' dismissal of employees for their political views. You can form a union that only negotiates working conditions, and overtime rules and rates. Pointing at the worst example of a union, and claiming that they are fundamentally broken is like me pointing at the worst employer you can imagine, and claiming that corporations are fundamentally broken. Unions are democratic organizations, employers are authoritarian ones. You can decide what direction your union should go.
neffy 8y ago
I can recommend it. The way it works in civilised countries is that you can still attempt to negotiate your terms, however the union negotiates annual across the board increases, and critically circulates reliable information on what the salary ranges and compensation packages are. Which as you might imagine, makes it much easier to effectively negotiate. They also provide additional insurances for things like glasses, funding for education, and a range of subsidised country cottages with outdoor hot tubs for summer holidays. Seriously, you guys are missing out.
- nickik 8y ago
  Yeah because every country with unions is automatically civilized and gets all these things.
- adventured 8y ago
  And here we are, US tech workers dramatically out-earn all other nations except for Switzerland. The average programmer in the US earns 30% more than they do in Norway (a particularly rich nation); and ~75% more than in Sweden. Apparently the way your 'civilized' nations work, is they pay labor a lot less. France, infamous for their powerful unions, has enjoyed annual wage growth about 80% lower than the US over the last 20 years, leaving them trailing horribly behind the US on wages. The US median full-time income is higher than all nations on earth except for three (Norway, Switzerland, Australia). Your recommendation is for US labor to earn a lot less. If you were right, the union-friendly nations would dramatically out-earn US labor. Nearly without exception, the exact opposite is true.
  - neffy 8y ago
    I've worked in the USA as a developer. I wouldn't do it again for any amount of money. Money is an imperfect measure of total value. The total value to me of my comfortable home, full medical insurance regardless of employment status, short commuting distance, 7 weeks of paid holiday, well I won't bore you with all the details. Just the amount of time saved in not having to argue with US medical insurance companies about fully insured bills, is worth it to me. So yes, I'll take civilisation - when I add it all up, I not only earn more here, but I actually have some spare time to spend it in.
privacypoller 8y ago
How many tech workers are highly-specialized interchangeable resources to be utilized in the highest margin capacity until uneconomic? About that many.
mikestew 8y ago
How many tech workers would stand before a judge in court and let another person represent their interests? I'm probably about as skilled at negotiating terms of my employment as I am at arguing law. Oh, I think I'm good at it, but I'll bet a union rep would laugh at my naivety. But it would appear that many tech workers not only overestimate their negotiating skills, they also think that a tech workers union would work exactly like the U. A. W. (compensation based on seniority, et. al.), as if "union" allows no other option.
- kjksf 8y ago
  Really bad analogy. A lawyer that you hired and pay for represents your interest 100%. A union rep represents union interest first and then your interest. But if union interest is at odd with your interest, you loose 100%. For example when GM hit hard times UAW agreed to firing all UAW members in California factory, the one that Tesla then bought and is operating. As you might imagine, none of the UAW members that lost their jobs wanted that outcome. But it didn't matter what those thousands of UAW members wanted. UAW agreed to that deal with GM to save jobs of UAW members in Detroit. See e.g. https://solidarity-us.org/atc/146/p2793/ https://solidarity-us.org/atc/146/p2793/
  - mikestew 8y ago
    It apparently bears repeating: the U. A. W. is not the only union model out there. It could even be argued that it is one of the worst, hence the reason I specifically called them out.
logfromblammo 8y ago
Count me in. So far, the difference I have noticed between union and non-union areas is this: in the heavily unionized locales, all work done is very expensive, but it is also mostly done correctly; in the lightly unionized locales, work is inexpensive, but is slipshod, and without any express or implied warranty. Both take at least twice as long as you think should be necessary, but the union guys will at least show up and pretend to work, while the non-union guys will just ghost. I want to be the guy that shows up and (eventually) does it right, while three other guys stand around and watch. I'd rather not be the guy that cannot meaningfully engage with the work, because the pay is peanuts, and I could get fired just for sneezing wrong. I (and my ancestors) have a deep-rooted desire to be able to dig in my heels and give someone an earful (or page-full, as it were) whenever they are about to do something stupid and involve me in it. I don't feel like "at will" employment gives me that option. If I speak truth to power, I can get fired.
- kjksf 8y ago
  How does employer's inability to fire for sub-par performance leads to better work from employees? Who is this magical employer that exhibits those contradictory traits: * super harsh, fires workers for sneezing * doesn't fire workers for not working
  - logfromblammo 8y ago
    Sounds like my previous employer, except replace "sneezing" with "suggesting process improvements and a reading list" and replace "not working" with "exploiting the current process to look busy without getting much actual work done". In that case, recognizing that I was a problem for office politics, the three seniors and the PM booted me off the project, and my employer then fired me in the next minute, for not being attached to a project. There are employers out there that pull this crap. You don't have to work if you know the right people. You can't make waves if you don't.

influx 8y ago

Can you imagine pay, promotion, and assignment by seniority instead of skill? Doesn't sound very appealing to me.

walshemj 8y ago
I don't know where you get that idea from its not my experience working as an M&P grade in a unionised company in the UK.
- mark_edward 8y ago
  Don't worry, the American Enterprise Institute and other business groups have produced plenty of educational material on how unions work.
- djrogers 8y ago
  > I don't know where you get that idea from Virtually every union in the US > its not my experience working as an M&P grade in a unionised company in the UK. Yeah. Tesla isn't based in the UK, nor are the wroker in question here.
  - walshemj 8y ago
    Actually worked at place with professional unions in the USA? And I suspect the vast majority of imported H1b's would love a seniority "buggins turn" system.
vkou 8y ago
This is not a necessary requirement for a union. It is quite possible to charter a union which does not make any seniority expectations of their employer. You can, for instance form a union, whose sole purpose is bargaining for pay bands in a company with well-defined job roles. You can form a union that only fights 'arbitrary' dismissal of employees for their political views. You can form a union that only negotiates working conditions, and overtime rules and rates. Pointing at the worst example of a union, and claiming that they are fundamentally broken is like me pointing at the worst employer you can imagine, and claiming that corporations are fundamentally broken. Unions are democratic organizations, employers are authoritarian ones. You can decide what direction your union should go.

neffy 8y ago

I can recommend it. The way it works in civilised countries is that you can still attempt to negotiate your terms, however the union negotiates annual across the board increases, and critically circulates reliable information on what the salary ranges and compensation packages are. Which as you might imagine, makes it much easier to effectively negotiate. They also provide additional insurances for things like glasses, funding for education, and a range of subsidised country cottages with outdoor hot tubs for summer holidays. Seriously, you guys are missing out.

nickik 8y ago
Yeah because every country with unions is automatically civilized and gets all these things.
adventured 8y ago
And here we are, US tech workers dramatically out-earn all other nations except for Switzerland. The average programmer in the US earns 30% more than they do in Norway (a particularly rich nation); and ~75% more than in Sweden. Apparently the way your 'civilized' nations work, is they pay labor a lot less. France, infamous for their powerful unions, has enjoyed annual wage growth about 80% lower than the US over the last 20 years, leaving them trailing horribly behind the US on wages. The US median full-time income is higher than all nations on earth except for three (Norway, Switzerland, Australia). Your recommendation is for US labor to earn a lot less. If you were right, the union-friendly nations would dramatically out-earn US labor. Nearly without exception, the exact opposite is true.
- neffy 8y ago
  I've worked in the USA as a developer. I wouldn't do it again for any amount of money. Money is an imperfect measure of total value. The total value to me of my comfortable home, full medical insurance regardless of employment status, short commuting distance, 7 weeks of paid holiday, well I won't bore you with all the details. Just the amount of time saved in not having to argue with US medical insurance companies about fully insured bills, is worth it to me. So yes, I'll take civilisation - when I add it all up, I not only earn more here, but I actually have some spare time to spend it in.

privacypoller 8y ago

How many tech workers are highly-specialized interchangeable resources to be utilized in the highest margin capacity until uneconomic? About that many.

mikestew 8y ago

How many tech workers would stand before a judge in court and let another person represent their interests? I'm probably about as skilled at negotiating terms of my employment as I am at arguing law. Oh, I think I'm good at it, but I'll bet a union rep would laugh at my naivety. But it would appear that many tech workers not only overestimate their negotiating skills, they also think that a tech workers union would work exactly like the U. A. W. (compensation based on seniority, et. al.), as if "union" allows no other option.

kjksf 8y ago
Really bad analogy. A lawyer that you hired and pay for represents your interest 100%. A union rep represents union interest first and then your interest. But if union interest is at odd with your interest, you loose 100%. For example when GM hit hard times UAW agreed to firing all UAW members in California factory, the one that Tesla then bought and is operating. As you might imagine, none of the UAW members that lost their jobs wanted that outcome. But it didn't matter what those thousands of UAW members wanted. UAW agreed to that deal with GM to save jobs of UAW members in Detroit. See e.g. https://solidarity-us.org/atc/146/p2793/ https://solidarity-us.org/atc/146/p2793/
- mikestew 8y ago
  It apparently bears repeating: the U. A. W. is not the only union model out there. It could even be argued that it is one of the worst, hence the reason I specifically called them out.

logfromblammo 8y ago

Count me in. So far, the difference I have noticed between union and non-union areas is this: in the heavily unionized locales, all work done is very expensive, but it is also mostly done correctly; in the lightly unionized locales, work is inexpensive, but is slipshod, and without any express or implied warranty. Both take at least twice as long as you think should be necessary, but the union guys will at least show up and pretend to work, while the non-union guys will just ghost. I want to be the guy that shows up and (eventually) does it right, while three other guys stand around and watch. I'd rather not be the guy that cannot meaningfully engage with the work, because the pay is peanuts, and I could get fired just for sneezing wrong. I (and my ancestors) have a deep-rooted desire to be able to dig in my heels and give someone an earful (or page-full, as it were) whenever they are about to do something stupid and involve me in it. I don't feel like "at will" employment gives me that option. If I speak truth to power, I can get fired.

kjksf 8y ago
How does employer's inability to fire for sub-par performance leads to better work from employees? Who is this magical employer that exhibits those contradictory traits: * super harsh, fires workers for sneezing * doesn't fire workers for not working
- logfromblammo 8y ago
  Sounds like my previous employer, except replace "sneezing" with "suggesting process improvements and a reading list" and replace "not working" with "exploiting the current process to look busy without getting much actual work done". In that case, recognizing that I was a problem for office politics, the three seniors and the PM booted me off the project, and my employer then fired me in the next minute, for not being attached to a project. There are employers out there that pull this crap. You don't have to work if you know the right people. You can't make waves if you don't.