11 ms·

FAANG + Microsoft + Uber + Airbnb hire thousands and thousands of engineers in the Valley and Seattle every year. 400K is L5-L6 salary (senior engineer, first l

• diminoten 8y ago
  I think you guys are agreeing with each other, right? L5-L6 isn't "average", is it? Most FAANGMUA employees are not managers/senior engineers.
  • marcell 8y ago
    I think 20-30% of Googlers are L5. If you're able to be hired at Google, you're able to make L5 within 2-4 years.
    • dmode 8y ago
      This. L5-L6 is not really that hard to get into if you have a few years of experience.
• CryoLogic 8y ago
  400k is an outlier for sr engineer or 1st level manager. Most all of them fall into 200-300/yr in the valley or Seattle at those companies.
  • dunpeal 8y ago
    400k is not unusual for a senior engineer working at big tech for several years in the Bay, Seattle, NYC, or even a city like LA. Base salary will be around 200K, and bonus would be another 200K. Can easily be 50-100K more than that on some years. Outlier would be 750K or more, which means the engineer is one of the most valuable members of the team.
    • toephu2 8y ago
      The median T5 Google eng does not have 200k base. (It's less than that) and lol bonus is not 200k. Bonus is 15% of base. Not sure where you are pulling your numbers from but Facebook is very similar. Most senior devs at big tech are not making 200k base (more like 150-190k). It is more like top 20% making that base. But base doesn't matter. The money is in the RSUs anyway.
      • dunpeal 8y ago
        I'm obviously including RSU in the "bonus" portion, in addition to cash. There are also companies who pay these kind of total bonus figures in cash, but in big tech it's typically paid in stocks. I'm pulling these numbers from direct contact with recruiters in these companies, and in some cases job offers. Incidentally, there's an anonymous reply from a Facebook engineer under one of my other comments in this thread. His total compensation last year was $450k.
        • toephu2 8y ago
          So? That's one engineer. I said top 20%. You act like the median engineer is pulling 400k at FB. They aren't.
          • dunpeal 8y ago
            The median employee at FB is making $240k. We can safely assume the median engineer is making more than that. I never claimed that median engineer is making $400k. This entire thread is about the senior engineers and their payout after 4-5 of working at a company like FB vs at a startup. If you could do good work as an engineer at a startup for 4-5 years, pulling $400k at FB is very realistic for you. With the median being $240k, it's not going to be a whole lot less. I'm not sure why you're trying to prove me wrong, but let's face facts: even that absolute median of $240k that includes non-engineers is better than what most engineers would pull at a startup. Bottom line: if you can stick it out as a senior engineer at a startup for the 4-5 years it takes your options to vest, then you can realistically pull $400k/yr at FB. Except at the startup, you'd make maybe $180k base, and your "bonus" would be your bottom-preference 0.01% equity that would almost certainly be worth 0.
  • eloisant 8y ago
    200-300/yr still doesn't get you less than winning the startup lottery as an early employee. So it's better to get that than risking getting only half.
• dunpeal 8y ago
  Most people who think of 400K (or even 200K in some previous discussions) as "outlier pay" are probably just not familiar with big tech pay and how much revenue they earn per engineer.
  • GordonS 8y ago
    > how much revenue they earn per engineer That does not necessarily correlate with salary. At least it doesn't outside of SV.
    • dunpeal 8y ago
      It correlates with how much a business will be ultimately willing to pay a developer, if they have to. If I'm making a $1M profit on you, I'll be willing to pay you up to a high fraction of this amount if I have to. Financially, even if I pay you $950K, I'm still making money. Assuming my business scales, I'd hire as many engineers like you as possible, and pay them the same. Why not? I'm making a profit for each one. Great deal for me. Of course, if you're willing to work for $100k, I'd rather pay you that instead. Hell, I'd rather you worked for me for free!
      • stealthmodeclan 8y ago
        If I'm making a $1M profit on you, I'll be willing to pay you up to a high fraction of this amount if I have to. Financially, even if I pay you $950K, I'm still making money. Where does the money come for dividends, taxes, and overhead? If there is enough supply of engineers at the same quality, no one will pay more.
        • dunpeal 8y ago
          Obviously, I'm keeping it simple. My point is, profit per engineer does have a lot to do with how much I'm willing to pay that engineer. I'd rather pay as little as possible, but if necessary, I'll pay almost as much as I make in profit, because I'd still be making money.
    • 8y ago
• dfabulich 8y ago
  400K is average L5-L6 total comp including salary, bonus, and RSUs. (A lot of folks in this thread seem to be confusing base salary with total comp.)
• vonmoltke 8y ago
  "Thousands and thousands" is an exaggeration, particularly considering the portion that is churn between them. There are over 3.87 million software developers in the US[1]. I would be shocked if even 10% of them are employed by the companies you mention Nationwide, let alone just in SV and Seattle. Of that, a minority pull down the massive TC you cite. I think that certainly qualifies as an outlier. Furthermore, the headcounts of the really big companies, particularly Amazon and Microsoft, are inflated by non-engineers. Citing them doesn't really say much. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering_demographics https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering_demogra...
• toephu2 8y ago
  Excuse me but the median senior software engineer at Microsoft does not make $400k/yr in TC. Same goes for AMZN. There are only a handful of companies that pay $400k/yr for senior software engineers and MSFT ain't one of them (facebook, and google do however). Go checkout Blind if you don't believe. Or ask your friend at MSFT. And like someone else said, first level managers are more like 250-350k range, not 400k, yes even at G and FB. Uber and Airbnb don't pay that much either. Sorry I don't count paper money as real money.
  • dmode 8y ago
    I didn't say median. I said it is L5-L6 comp, which doesn't make it a median as I assume most engineers will be in L1-L4 band. That said, it is not an outlier either. And won't be surprised is 20-30% of engineering and PM orgs are making that money. Also, Uber and Airbnb gives RSUs which are not paper money. I am confident that an IPO for both these companies are inevitable.
    • toephu2 8y ago
      RSU's in a company that hasn't gone public are not very liquid... not paper money, but definitely not worth face value. Take that value and cut it in half or 1/4.
      • dunpeal 8y ago
        Still a lot better than stock options in a startup that isn't even close to liquidity.
      • philsnow 8y ago
        You picked .5 or .25 as the multiplier. If it's still 2-5 years until a public offering, it's also quite possible for the multiplier to be closer to 1.5 or 2. Everybody has a different assessment of how likely each outcome is, so everybody has a different expected value.
  • _m96l 8y ago
    > There are only a handful of companies that pay $400k/yr for senior software engineers and MSFT ain't one of them (facebook, and google do however). None of the companies in top tier tech can afford to pay substantially less than any of its competitors. That's why they're "top tech". If what you said was true, and FB or Google paid a lot more than say MSFT or AMZN, then all the best senior engineers would eventually leave the latter for the former, and only the bottom talent will retain. Then the latter won't be top tech in any meaningful sense. In reality, FAANG are grouped together because they pay about the same and can compete with each other for the same level of talent. Other companies are in this category, just not as famous.
• ironjunkie 8y ago
  The other thing that people seem to forget is that a lot of people calculate their FAANG Total Comp with the value of the stock today, not on the day they were given to them. This simply because you could have yourself bought those stocks at the same price back in the days. You cannot include the increase as part of your total comp This in some case makes a huge difference, especially now, where all the tech stocks have gone to the moon. I believe that a lot of 400k$ packages would actually be no more than 250k$ if calculated correctly
  • dmode 8y ago
    FAANGS give you RSUs, which are cash equivalent. When I am referring to 400K, I am referring to "total cash in hand" at the end of the year. Generally the comp you get quoted when you get hired is $200K base + $200K in RSUs based on hire date's stock price. So in today's frothy stock market, you would at least earn $400K and possibly more.
    • ironjunkie 8y ago
      that's what I'm saying. I'm clarifying that the value of the RSU is when you got them at the time of the offer. Not at the time you sell it or vest it.
      • dmode 8y ago
        I see. But for most people, when they look at their W-2 they will see the total cash they earned.
        • ironjunkie 8y ago
          The stock could have gone down also. Total comp cannot take the upside of the stock. You could have invested in the same stock and receive the same upside also. This is part of the luck in being in the right company or pick the right stock. That's why Total comp should be the number you got with the information you got at the time of the offer
• aswanson 8y ago
  FAANGMUA. The acronyms just keep getting better.
  • onlyrealcuzzo 8y ago
    Can we go with FAANGAMU? It's like a Kangaroo, but with FAANGs.
  • philangist 8y ago
    The best one I've seen yet is GAANDU (Google, Amazon, AirBnb, Netflix, Dropbox and Uber). Apparently it means asshole in Hindi. https://www.teamblind.com/article/Breakdown-of-compensation-at-GAANDU-companies-JmcOTd6g https://www.teamblind.com/article/Breakdown-of-compensation-...
    • deleted 8y ago
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• rifung 8y ago
  I work at Google, used to work at Amazon, and had an offer from Microsoft. From my experience, Google/FB pay much more than Amazon and Microsoft if we're talking about total compensation so I think it's a little more rare than what you're saying. I don't think it's that easy to hit L5 either. My teammate is amazing and had like 8+ years at Microsoft before joining Google but was hired as an L4. For most SWEs, L5 would be the last level they ever reach in their entire career..
  • lossforajob 8y ago
    I keep hearing about the FAANG companies and I have to wonder what can I do to make my proactiveness pay off in getting into the running for job interviews? I feel like it's easier to get their attention as a CS student seeking internships than as a self-taught mid-level developer (which I am). I have interviewed on two separate occasions by Amazon, and only contacted by Microsoft (submitted some forms, but they never called me back). Both times, it was from an internal recruiter making first contact with me. But when I try to reach out to them first (applications or LinkedIn), nobody answers. Are these FAANG companies usually recruiting candidates on the basis of "don't contact us, we'll decide if we want to contact you"? Other than knowing an acquaintance that works in the company I see no other way to get into an interview more quickly.
    • patio11 8y ago
      No, they're voracious recruiting machines. It is certainly possible to get hired by writing into a webform; it's not a particularly effective way relative to others, but it works enough to justify them sending those leads to recruiters. Other than knowing an acquaintance that works in the company I see no other way to get into an interview more quickly. You should certainly cultivate an internal advocate. In no circumstance will that be worse than applying cold; it will often be better.
    • chillee 8y ago
      The Foobar coding challenge seems to work really for Google, for whatever reason. Go to Google and search "python list comprehension" in a bunch of different tabs. Make sure it's exactly that. If you have an extra 's', or if you do "list comprehension python", it's not gonna work. If you go through the first 3 levels, then they'll ask you to send in a resume. Admittedly, I only know results from the perspective of students, but I know several people who were initially rejected that got callbacks after finishing Foobar.
• deleted 8y ago
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• throwaway7551 8y ago
  Just to add another data point. I'm a Google L5, and make nowhere near $400K. My RSUs would have to quadruple in order to even get close to that. I think your idea of a normal L5-6 salary here is a vast overestimate.
  • freyir 8y ago
    Or you’re getting underpaid relative to your peers.
  • joshuamorton 8y ago
    Are you in an eng ladder and in the bay area? Because if not you're RSU grant is grossly low (since I'm an L3 who isn't fully refreshed and if my grant quadrupled, I'd be nearing 400K, and my grant isn't exceptionally high).
• KirinDave 8y ago
  $400k salary is decidedly not average for non-principle engineer salary at Amazon, Google, or Facebook. The thing is, part of my job lets me see some outlier salary data for AI jobs and uh, I see the extreme right end of the salaried with-benefits spectrum hit a base cash comp around $300 with bonuses to $400. Now, if we're talking, "With stock, benefits and maximum bonus included" then yes, $400k is high end but not absurd. And if you're talking a lot of work as a contractor I'd expect more.
• alfredallan1 8y ago
  Make a reasonable estimate - what do you think is the total number of people earning in the range of 400K at FAANGMUA? How about in terms of percentage of engineering staff? Do bear in mind that it takes almost 10 years of steady relevant experience to get to that level (L5+). As another commenter points out, 8 years of solid experince only made an L4.
  • scarmig 8y ago
    If you're hired into the role directly. Someone coming in straight from college can realistically expect L5 in 6-8 years. Back in the day, you used to get basically kicked out if it took longer than that. Even coming in as an L4, you can plausibly expect L5 in 2-3 years.
  • joejerryronnie 8y ago
    Here's how I've seen it work, and this is specifically relevant to Bay Area compensation (although it prob works the same in other markets, just scaled down). You come into either one of: - top tech company (i.e. FAANG) - high growth, public, mid-sized tech company (e.g. top enterprise cloud companies) Your base salary will be between maybe $130K - $160K. And not just for engineers, technical product/program/project managers make this as well. Your bonus will be 15-20% of your base, so another $20-30K, bringing your total comp minus RSUs to $150-200K. Your first RSU grant will prob be worth $100K per year once you start vesting. If you are a top 20% performer, you will get another grant within the next year or two. After you've been at the company for three or so years, you will have multiple RSU grants starting to vest. Once you stack these RSU grants on top of each other, your total comp can easily reach $400K for some period of time. A couple of caveats/risks with this comp structure - it seems companies are much more willing to throw more RSU's at you than a significant base salary increase. - as long as the markets are rewarding growth vs profitability, the RSU's will continue to flow - if the market crashes, the whole comp structure may crumble.
• cobookman 8y ago
  I'm looking at a Google internal self reported income form. Large majority make less than 400k. There's more l3 & l4 employees that. L5. And way less l6/l7 than l5. Also Uber and Airbnb don't offer liquid rsu. Nobody knows their ipo price and ipo valuation.
• zuhayeer 8y ago
  http://levels.fyi http://levels.fyi is a good tool for shedding light on some of these numbers