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I have personally been moving to a more cash-based lifestyle after I realized that I used my card so often that my payment history could be used to construct a

I have personally been moving to a more cash-based lifestyle after I realized that I used my card so often that my payment history could be used to construct a reasonable map of my location history.

mdekkers 8y ago
location history and personality profile
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
michelledepeil 8y ago
I too have been using cash almost exclusively lately for this reason, unless it is not possible to pay with cash in a store, which is happening more and more frequently. Other benefits include: - Paying back other people is easy; - Shops are always lacking change, I can almost always pay with exact change; - Online takeaway shops charge for using their payment provider (% of the total order price) but don't make you pay for cash payments.
- nothrabannosir 8y ago
  > Online takeaway shops charge for using their payment provider (% of the total order price) but don't make you pay for cash payments. If I understand the ruling corretl, this has become illegal in the EU recently. JustEat.co.uk for example now charge a £0.50 fee for cash payments. I’m not sure how I feel about it tbh; I get that merchants were hiding service fees as card processing fees, but on the other hand we now have government mandated subsidising of credit cards by cash users. CC users get lots of benefits, such as, most importantly the power of chargebacks. You don’t get that with cash, but now you have to subsidise it, because the cost of those services is eventually passed on to the merchant, and thus to the customer.
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    If I understand the ruling corretl, this has become illegal in the EU recently. It's been against the rules (card network? clearinghouse? not sure) for a long time in the United States, too. But it still happens. As an example, a bookstore I was in a couple of weekends ago had a sign at the cash register notifying people that all transactions incur a 4% "customer service fee." There was a sign immediately below that one noting that there is a 4% discount for paying with cash. Where there's a will, there's a way.
    - icebraining 8y ago
      Visa and Mastercard used to prohibit it, but there was an antitrust lawsuit and I think the courts struck that down.
macintux 8y ago
Dave Ramsey encourages paying cash for everything because it "hurts" much more than using a card, encouraging more restraint. You really feel that stack of lovely bills leaving your hands.
- mjevans 8y ago
  I'd be much more apt to do that if prices for things were easier to pay for without handling many different sized coins or bills. It isn't hard to do the math, but it is difficult to hunt for the CORRECT coins. Also, in the US, why aren't all businesses required by law to just post the prices including all taxes and fees (but not discounts that might apply)?
  - macintux 8y ago
    I seem to recall someone getting in trouble for doing that but that could be a bogus memory. Certainly not everyone has to pay the taxes, so that may be one reason why they don’t most places.
ironjunkie 8y ago
I would love to do this, but not using a Credit card in the US also means leaving money on the table. For me on average, I get about 2.5% cashback (in the form of direct cashback, or miles and other goodies). I agree with you that it is problematic though and would love to have a better privacy solution.
- Paperweight 8y ago
  Keep in mind that that 2.5% gets deducted the final amount paid to the merchant. You may be fine with this, or you may feel a pang of guilt, depending on the merchant. :)
  - stronglikedan 8y ago
    I haven't been a merchant in a while, but I all I remember was a set transaction fee with an additional percentage of the purchase tacked on. The fees were dependent on the type of card, Visa, MC, Amex, & Discover, and had nothing to do with the card issuer. Do they really deduct the issuer's point scheme from the merchant account now? That seems like it would be difficult to manage, what with rolling point schemes and whatnot. Not to mention it would be near impossible for the merchant to keep balanced books if they don't know their costs per purchase until after they've been paid.
    - Paperweight 8y ago
      In Canada, rates vary per card and even vary right along with the variable reward schemes. https://www.cfib-fcei.ca/sites/default/files/pdf/5513.pdf https://www.cfib-fcei.ca/sites/default/files/pdf/5513.pdf Merchants aren't allowed to charge different prices for different payment methods, so there's an incentive for credit card issuers to maximise the rewards and quietly pass them along as fees to merchants! It's a huge injustice, IMO. A case was brought to the competition tribunal that would have made issuers notify cardholders that rewards are passed on as fees, but it was rejected. https://www.thebalancesmb.com/small-business-credit-card-2948242 https://www.thebalancesmb.com/small-business-credit-card-294... Some are as high as 3% - so merchants get charged $12 on a $400 transaction, vs. just 12 cents for Interac debit. So you can see why banks are pushing Visa/MC network debit cards now. EDIT: The EU stopped this nonsense by straight up capping interchange fees at 0.3%. Pretty sure Visa/MC are still doing just fine there :) http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-4585_en.htm http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-4585_en.htm
psergeant 8y ago
I’m generally pretty privacy conscious, but not about my location data. What worries you about that?
- Yetanfou 8y ago
  It is not just your location data which is collected and profiled but also your purchase history. The combination of these two is more than enough to make a detailed profile of who you are (as in 'what your habits are', they already know your name and address etc.) and whether you have anything 'interesting' on the go (visited the hospital, went to the drug store, bought more booze than your health care insurer thinks good for their bottom line, etc.). Payment processors sell this data to the likes of Facebook and Google who use it to make a more detailed profile. If you're fine with this, no problem, just use that bank card/Swish/Apple|Google|Samsung|whatever Pay. If you're not, cash is one of the ways of limiting your exposure to these practices.
  - Tijdreiziger 8y ago
    > Payment processors sell this data to the likes of Facebook and Google Source?
    - Yetanfou 8y ago
      https://www.technologyreview.com/s/607938/google-now-tracks-your-credit-card-purchases-and-connects-them-to-its-online-profile-of-you/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/607938/google-now-tracks-... "Of course, Google has been able to track your location using Google Maps for a long time. Since 2014, it has used that information to provide advertisers with information on how often people visit their stores. But store visits aren’t purchases, so, as Google said in a blog post on its new service for marketers, it has partnered with “third parties” that give them access to 70 percent of all credit and debit card purchases."
- Tijdreiziger 8y ago
  Nothing in particular, but I like the idea of keeping my private information to myself.
woolvalley 8y ago
So can your cell phone? That one is significantly worse.
- Tijdreiziger 8y ago
  I've turned off the Google 'location history' setting, and am considering disabling location completely unless I need it, in which case I'll manually enable it. The more radical option (which would also prevent any possible tracking by my provider) would be to forgo a cellphone entirely, but that doesn't seem practical in this day and age.
  - shpx 8y ago
    Your phone's location can be silently triangulated based on what cellphone towers can see your phone and the strength of the signal to them. This is being done and you can buy the data from LocationSmart. This was discussed on HN a few weeks ago [0]. This data was used in Italy to catch CIA agents after they extrajudicially extradited (so to speak) a terrorist[1] in 2003 https://youtu.be/BwGsr3SzCZc?t=7m2s https://youtu.be/BwGsr3SzCZc?t=7m2s. The whole talk is worth watching. The cost of storing this forever is negligible and going down. The government would be foolish or (in my opinion irrationally) principled not to hold on to this for the next 1,000 years. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17095667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17095667 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Mustafa_Osama_Nasr#Conviction_in_Italy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Mustafa_Osama_Nasr#Conv...
pbhjpbhj 8y ago
Why is that a problem?
- rando444 8y ago
  Some people enjoy privacy, others might want to run for public office some day.
jakelarkin 8y ago
some differences by region but most mobile phone companies get your location passively, store it and optionally hand it off to the government or sell it to interested corporate buyers.

I have personally been moving to a more cash-based lifestyle after I realized that I used my card so often that my payment history could be used to construct a reasonable map of my location history.

mdekkers 8y ago

location history and personality profile

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

michelledepeil 8y ago

I too have been using cash almost exclusively lately for this reason, unless it is not possible to pay with cash in a store, which is happening more and more frequently. Other benefits include: - Paying back other people is easy; - Shops are always lacking change, I can almost always pay with exact change; - Online takeaway shops charge for using their payment provider (% of the total order price) but don't make you pay for cash payments.

nothrabannosir 8y ago
> Online takeaway shops charge for using their payment provider (% of the total order price) but don't make you pay for cash payments. If I understand the ruling corretl, this has become illegal in the EU recently. JustEat.co.uk for example now charge a £0.50 fee for cash payments. I’m not sure how I feel about it tbh; I get that merchants were hiding service fees as card processing fees, but on the other hand we now have government mandated subsidising of credit cards by cash users. CC users get lots of benefits, such as, most importantly the power of chargebacks. You don’t get that with cash, but now you have to subsidise it, because the cost of those services is eventually passed on to the merchant, and thus to the customer.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  If I understand the ruling corretl, this has become illegal in the EU recently. It's been against the rules (card network? clearinghouse? not sure) for a long time in the United States, too. But it still happens. As an example, a bookstore I was in a couple of weekends ago had a sign at the cash register notifying people that all transactions incur a 4% "customer service fee." There was a sign immediately below that one noting that there is a 4% discount for paying with cash. Where there's a will, there's a way.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    Visa and Mastercard used to prohibit it, but there was an antitrust lawsuit and I think the courts struck that down.

macintux 8y ago

Dave Ramsey encourages paying cash for everything because it "hurts" much more than using a card, encouraging more restraint. You really feel that stack of lovely bills leaving your hands.

mjevans 8y ago
I'd be much more apt to do that if prices for things were easier to pay for without handling many different sized coins or bills. It isn't hard to do the math, but it is difficult to hunt for the CORRECT coins. Also, in the US, why aren't all businesses required by law to just post the prices including all taxes and fees (but not discounts that might apply)?
- macintux 8y ago
  I seem to recall someone getting in trouble for doing that but that could be a bogus memory. Certainly not everyone has to pay the taxes, so that may be one reason why they don’t most places.

ironjunkie 8y ago

I would love to do this, but not using a Credit card in the US also means leaving money on the table. For me on average, I get about 2.5% cashback (in the form of direct cashback, or miles and other goodies). I agree with you that it is problematic though and would love to have a better privacy solution.

Paperweight 8y ago
Keep in mind that that 2.5% gets deducted the final amount paid to the merchant. You may be fine with this, or you may feel a pang of guilt, depending on the merchant. :)
- stronglikedan 8y ago
  I haven't been a merchant in a while, but I all I remember was a set transaction fee with an additional percentage of the purchase tacked on. The fees were dependent on the type of card, Visa, MC, Amex, & Discover, and had nothing to do with the card issuer. Do they really deduct the issuer's point scheme from the merchant account now? That seems like it would be difficult to manage, what with rolling point schemes and whatnot. Not to mention it would be near impossible for the merchant to keep balanced books if they don't know their costs per purchase until after they've been paid.
  - Paperweight 8y ago
    In Canada, rates vary per card and even vary right along with the variable reward schemes. https://www.cfib-fcei.ca/sites/default/files/pdf/5513.pdf https://www.cfib-fcei.ca/sites/default/files/pdf/5513.pdf Merchants aren't allowed to charge different prices for different payment methods, so there's an incentive for credit card issuers to maximise the rewards and quietly pass them along as fees to merchants! It's a huge injustice, IMO. A case was brought to the competition tribunal that would have made issuers notify cardholders that rewards are passed on as fees, but it was rejected. https://www.thebalancesmb.com/small-business-credit-card-2948242 https://www.thebalancesmb.com/small-business-credit-card-294... Some are as high as 3% - so merchants get charged $12 on a $400 transaction, vs. just 12 cents for Interac debit. So you can see why banks are pushing Visa/MC network debit cards now. EDIT: The EU stopped this nonsense by straight up capping interchange fees at 0.3%. Pretty sure Visa/MC are still doing just fine there :) http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-4585_en.htm http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-4585_en.htm

psergeant 8y ago

I’m generally pretty privacy conscious, but not about my location data. What worries you about that?

Yetanfou 8y ago
It is not just your location data which is collected and profiled but also your purchase history. The combination of these two is more than enough to make a detailed profile of who you are (as in 'what your habits are', they already know your name and address etc.) and whether you have anything 'interesting' on the go (visited the hospital, went to the drug store, bought more booze than your health care insurer thinks good for their bottom line, etc.). Payment processors sell this data to the likes of Facebook and Google who use it to make a more detailed profile. If you're fine with this, no problem, just use that bank card/Swish/Apple|Google|Samsung|whatever Pay. If you're not, cash is one of the ways of limiting your exposure to these practices.
- Tijdreiziger 8y ago
  > Payment processors sell this data to the likes of Facebook and Google Source?
  - Yetanfou 8y ago
    https://www.technologyreview.com/s/607938/google-now-tracks-your-credit-card-purchases-and-connects-them-to-its-online-profile-of-you/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/607938/google-now-tracks-... "Of course, Google has been able to track your location using Google Maps for a long time. Since 2014, it has used that information to provide advertisers with information on how often people visit their stores. But store visits aren’t purchases, so, as Google said in a blog post on its new service for marketers, it has partnered with “third parties” that give them access to 70 percent of all credit and debit card purchases."
Tijdreiziger 8y ago
Nothing in particular, but I like the idea of keeping my private information to myself.

woolvalley 8y ago

So can your cell phone? That one is significantly worse.

Tijdreiziger 8y ago
I've turned off the Google 'location history' setting, and am considering disabling location completely unless I need it, in which case I'll manually enable it. The more radical option (which would also prevent any possible tracking by my provider) would be to forgo a cellphone entirely, but that doesn't seem practical in this day and age.
- shpx 8y ago
  Your phone's location can be silently triangulated based on what cellphone towers can see your phone and the strength of the signal to them. This is being done and you can buy the data from LocationSmart. This was discussed on HN a few weeks ago [0]. This data was used in Italy to catch CIA agents after they extrajudicially extradited (so to speak) a terrorist[1] in 2003 https://youtu.be/BwGsr3SzCZc?t=7m2s https://youtu.be/BwGsr3SzCZc?t=7m2s. The whole talk is worth watching. The cost of storing this forever is negligible and going down. The government would be foolish or (in my opinion irrationally) principled not to hold on to this for the next 1,000 years. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17095667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17095667 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Mustafa_Osama_Nasr#Conviction_in_Italy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Mustafa_Osama_Nasr#Conv...

pbhjpbhj 8y ago

Why is that a problem?

rando444 8y ago
Some people enjoy privacy, others might want to run for public office some day.

jakelarkin 8y ago

some differences by region but most mobile phone companies get your location passively, store it and optionally hand it off to the government or sell it to interested corporate buyers.