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A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Meat Cases
- honestoHeminway 8y agoI shall fight at land, air and sea, to not pay for thee.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- jonknee 8y ago> Cattlemen and dairy farmers are saddling up, and lawyering up, in response. The U.S. Cattlemen’s Association has petitioned the Agriculture Department to bar plant-based products from bearing labels that say “beef” or “meat,” with similar restrictions on meat grown from animal cells. Good luck with that.
- mc32 8y agoI’d like to add “milk” to that list. Some ground nuts or seeds emulsified in some liquid should not be called milk. Milk, in a food context, should refer to the substance produced by females of various mammalian species only.
- lower 8y agoIt's like this in the EU. You cannot sell 'soya milk'. Source (PDF): https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/jcms/p1_370368/fr/ https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/jcms/p1_370368/fr/
- taysic 8y agoInteresting - what do they call it there? I was in the EU a long while ago and I found only natural food stores usually contained soy/almond/etc milks but I don't remember what they were called or how they were marketed. Compare that to where I live in the Bay area and it seems to me that vegan products are actually crowding out other products in supermarkets. Esp when it comes to cookies/baked goods.
- detaro 8y agoIt's gotten much more common in normal supermarkets in the last few years, and is typically called -drink (yes, English, so Sojadrink, Mandeldrink, ...) or only a brand name and then labelled somewhere small as "milk replacement based on $plant"
- Retric 8y agoDictionary already disagrees with you. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/milk https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/milk 2 : a liquid resembling milk in appearance: such as a : the latex of a plant b : the contents of an unripe kernel of grain PS: This is a fairly old definition as milkweed for example comes from it's milk like sap.
- mc32 8y agoI thInk milkweed is different. Its named after it’s appearance, and not in an effort to usurp meaning and coopt.
- gbrown 8y agoAn effort to usurp meaning? How about an effort to use evocative language to describe important characteristics of a product? Seriously, why do you think the government should enforce a monopoly on a word which does a great job of describing "milky" substances? I think that's utterly foolish.
- eagletusk 8y agoHow can one know the intention of a plant?
- jonknee 8y agoThe other non-dairy milks at the grocery store are also named after their appearance. No one is trying to trick someone into drinking almond milk, the almond part is clearly labeled. But it's a white liquid used for many of the same things as dairy milk, it's not confusing to call it a milk. I also purchase almond flour and I have never been confused that it wasn't actually wheat.
- rm_-rf_slash 8y agoOr in the words of Lewis Black: “There’s no such thing as soy milk. Why? Because there’s no soy tit.”
- pacaro 8y agoNot all mammals have tits or nipples
- TaylorAlexander 8y agoWhy? I’m perfectly happy with the marketing of almond milk, cashew milk, and coconut milk as is. I’d rather people associate these things with something they’re familiar with so they’re comfortable trying them. The more we can stop relying on animal abuse for our food the better.
- pacaro 8y agoAnd almond milk has a long history in European cuisine. Partly because it could be consumed during lent, and partly because prior to pasteurization it was a milk that could be fresh without proximity to a dairy.
- koala_man 8y agoI'm happy with it as well, but imagine being a lactose intolerant seven year old with English as a second language trying to pick a milky beverage from: Almond, Banana, Coconut, Chocolate, Goat, Malt, Oat, Organic, 2%, Soy, Strawberry and Quinoa milk. This is why I don't think it's stupid to put the standard wording "May contain traces of milk" on a cartoon of milk.
- jodrellblank 8y agoIn your example, does the "milk" in "may contain traces of milk" include all the dictionary definition kinds of "milk"? arguing that "milk" is confusing so we should clarify it by saying the same word again, seems unhelpful to 7 year old ESL Lactose Timmy.
- koala_man 8y agoSorry for not being more clear. The argument is that even though it's easy for me to tell what's milk, I realize that it actually requires quite a bit of nutritional and cultural context, and that we should therefore consider not doing it. I also realize that it seems silly to put "may contain traces of milk" on a carton of milk, but we should still consider doing it for the same reason. Reserving "milk" for dairy products is not in itself sufficient because many dairy products don't use it ("cream", "kefir", "half&half"). The end goal is that Timmy should be able to look for a specific phrase on the nutritional info, rather than spending all day on the toilet because a bunch of nutritionally savvy and well educated native English speaking felt that it should be obvious. As a bonus, it makes NLP easier.
- macawfish 8y agoThere's a long history of calling nondairy plant substances milk. Milkweed. Milk of magnesia. Coconut milk. Milking it for what it's worth. So no thanks to that idea. Neither you nor the dairy industry are the boss of how people use language.
- Alex3917 8y ago> There's a long history of calling nondairy plant substances milk. Don't forget mushrooms! Stuff in the Lactarius genus are commonly called milky caps. It's actually a tradition to mess with mushroom beginners by asking them to put the sap from Lactarius piperatus on their tongues, because it's super spicy and burns a ton. But it's also the easiest way that you ID the mushroom and tell it apart from a couple look alikes.
- gbrown 8y agoThat goes for "meat" too - it was once a generic term for food, and is still used in the sense of "the edible part of something as distinguished from its covering". For example, "nut meat" is the edible center of nuts.
- koala_man 8y agoDeal. In return, meat products can also not not be misrepresented through labels like "ethically raised" or "humane".
- mc32 8y agoDone! I have no issue with truth in advertising so long as it’s neutral in does not seek to politicize something.
- cannonedhamster 8y agoDon't forget the numerous meat products already injected with red dyes to look fresher, "enhanced" with soy products, and all other kinds of shenanigans. This is clearly just the meat industry seeing vegetarianism become more mainstream and cutting into their profits and they don't like it.
- benatkin 8y agoThe word "mylk" was invented for this purpose.
- asciimo 8y agoWhile we're on the topic, it's criminal that other holdovers continue to be allowed. E.g., horsepower, film, glove box, "dialing" a number. The future is a very misleading place.
- DaiPlusPlus 8y agoI do actually store gloves in my car’s glovebox though.
- jl6 8y agoEvery word has a rich history which, if traced back far enough, will lead you to a source that is likely only figuratively related to what people currently understand it to mean. So we’re already in that future and we seem to cope alright.
- scythe 8y agoI object to the implication these labels give that the nut or seed in the title is actually responsible for the taste and texture of the beverage. With the exception of soymilk, nearly all of these products are sweetened xanthan gum milk with a tiny amount of [almonds/flaxseeds/macadamias/...] for flavor. A glass of "almond milk" contains, if you're lucky, about six to ten almonds. I have no qualms about the "milk" part, though.
- pacaro 8y agoYeah this is a little disturbing. If I make almond milk at home I probably use a cup of almonds to make a quart of almond milk, the commercial stuff is probably less than a quarter of that. It’s a good example of where the numbers don’t make sense. If you look at the price of the product and the price of almonds something just doesn’t add up
- grogenaut 8y agoHow are almonds processed for milk, how are they processed for consumption. If the latter requires a lot more handling then you may be wrong on the cost. Tho I Believe you things are not always obvious in industrial processes
- pacaro 8y agoYeah, it’s hard to know what the bulk price of almonds is on the industrial scale, and given that “raw” almonds in the US have to have been pasteurized, they’ve already had some processing. Another analysis is to compare with soy milk. At a local wholefoods: 32oz Soy milk. $1.99 1lb Soy beans. $1.99 32oz Almond milk. $1.99 1lb Raw Almonds. $6.99 That doesn’t tell us where the problem is, any of these prices could be being artificially inflated, but it’s pretty damning.
- scythe 8y agoIn order to make almond milk, almonds are ball-milled until the particle size reaches an average diameter of about 30 micrometers, which is fine enough to prevent a "grainy" feeling on the human tongue. If these ultrafine almond particles were to be suspended in water at a high enough concentration to mimic the thickness of milk, the resulting almond flavor would be overwhelming. This is described in the following patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/EP2476317A1/en https://patents.google.com/patent/EP2476317A1/en Instead, a small amount of ultrafine almond is suspended in water along with a tasteless long-chain polysaccharide, usually xanthan gum but occasionally other PS such as guar gum, psyllium mucilage or carob bean gum. Xanthan gum is the highest quality in any case. Source: I once considered trying to start a business around a tabletop ball mill for producing homemade nut milk, and similar assorted accessories. However, after some consideration, this is probably not viable. Fun fact: Hempseeds are extremely soft, and can be ground to an acceptable fineness by an ordinary blender. However, the resulting hemp milk has a strong flavor resembling undercooked eggplant. It may be suitable as a substitute for coconut in curries (not yet trialled).
- gbrown 8y agoI'm guessing you work in the dairy industry? Get over it - nobody is actually confusing dairy milk with almond milk, they're just buying different products over time.
- cgh 8y agoCalling it milk also encourages people to give these products to infants in the mistaken belief they are an acceptable substitute for real milk. Of course they aren't, as real milk is nutrient-dense and nut "milks" are essentially water unless they are fortified. Also, almond farming is remarkably water-hungry. 10% of California's water use is tied up in growing almonds.
- grogenaut 8y agoWon't someone please think of the children!!! Do you have any evidence of infant mortality or under nourishment because a parent mistook almond milk or other for formula or regular milk?
- undersuit 8y agoThere have been vegan couples keeping their children on a vegan diet. But I also think banning milk in the labeling of plant-milks is ridiculous. http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/11/08/child.starved/ http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/11/08/child.starved/
- cannonedhamster 8y agoAmazingly there have been non vegan couples that malnourished their children because they are stupid too. It's only a big deal because people like to hate on vegans. Stupid parents are stupid parents.
- jonknee 8y agoYou also shouldn't be hanging out in the dairy aisle if you're looking to feed an infant...
- undersuit 8y agoWhile people have fed their children plant-milks in an attempt to keep them vegetarian and the results on the kids are tragic, removing Milk from the names of plant-milks isn't going to save kids. If the parents can't research enough to know their children will not thrive on the nutrients in plant-milks(I would also advise against using regular milk as a comprehensive source of nutrients too) then those children will befall other tragedies because of their parent's; not because for a few years we were crazy enough to allow almond latex to be sold as almond milk.
- Someone1234 8y agoIf that were the definition then almost nothing on the shelf (inc. cow) would be considered "milk." Many people seem to be under the mistaken impression that in the US cow milk is simply squeezed out and bottled. Whereas in reality cow milk is pasteurized, homogenized, separated, and processed, then re-assembled. Meaning that cow milk in the US is completely artificial. If you've ever tried milk in the EU or straight from a cow you'd know they taste vastly differently to what is sold as "milk" on a US shelf.
- macawfish 8y agoDon't forget about the added sucralose!
- kevinslashslash 8y ago> produced by females of various mammalian species only. Like coconuts
- sdenton4 8y agoThe various food regulation bodies in the US are the definition of regulatory capture, so I fully expect that this would go through, where required labeling of gmo foods has failed...
- icelancer 8y agoBesides citing Taleb's screeds, there's no good reason to label them.
- emodendroket 8y agoSure there is. People have a right to know what they're buying, even if they make faulty decisions based on this information.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- pg_bot 8y agoThe FDA regulates the labeling of food and for obvious public health reasons (allergies) people are interested in having a commonly understood definition of food products. I wouldn't be surprised if the FDA doesn't send a strongly worded letter to these companies regarding their labeling to ensure that they are not misleading consumers. When it comes to plant based products it is likely they will win, when it comes to lab grown meat it's a bit of a gray area. As an example here is the FDA definition of peanut butter: https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=164.150&SearchTerm=peanut%20butter https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFR...
- frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago>Cattlemen and dairy farmers are saddling up, and lawyering up, in response. The U.S. Cattlemen’s Association has petitioned the Agriculture Department to bar plant-based products from bearing labels that say “beef” or “meat,” with similar restrictions on meat grown from animal cells. I understand their gripe with plant products, that sounds like deceptive advertising. But the lab-grown stuff is still meat. I think they're trying to take a yard here. >High-tech upstarts say the proposed labeling rules are a poor defense, pointing out that on a molecular level, plant-based meat products can contain the same amino acids, fats and minerals as animal flesh. >“People don’t get angry when you call your cellphone a phone,” said Ethan Brown, chief executive of Beyond Meat. Yes but if I try to buy a "computer" and you give me a phone, it's not a defense to tell me that it still has RAM and hard storage and a screen, etc. Veggies and tofu rolled into a patty may be a "burger" but it's not "meat" or "beef." >Jaime Athos, chief executive of the Tofurky Co., which sells imitation tofu-based roasts and patties, objects to any ban on the word “meat” in labels. Consumers hear tofu, he said, and “expect it to be bland or not meat-like.” Jaime, this is your advertising challenge. You don't just pretend your product is something else.
- ddppee 8y agoBut it's imitation meat. Why not call it meat. Are hotdogs deceptive advertising now too as they probably don't contain any dog meat?
- rdiddly 8y agoNor are they hot, until you heat them.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- frgtpsswrdlame 8y agoIt has to do with the understanding of the common consumer since they're who we're protecting here. Go ask most consumers what 'meat' means and they'll tell you (something like) it's the flesh of an animal. Ask them what 'beef' is and they'll tell you it's the flesh of a cow. Ask them what a 'hotdog' is and no one is going to tell you it's the flesh of a dog. The goal here is to make sure consumers know what it is they're buying. If I go to the store, am idly shopping and pick up something that looks like this [1] in the meat section and then get home and open it up and cook it and it's actually this [2] I'm going to feel taken. And rightfully so. [1] https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/59e9d405-24bb-431a-b98b-98dad89b63fc_1.b0de471a3ae195f19079b8a9c9542ed6.jpeg?odnHeight=450&odnWidth=450&odnBg=FFFFFF https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/59e9d405-24bb-431a-b98b-98d... [2] https://images.wsj.net/im-13668?width=1260&aspect_ratio=1.5 https://images.wsj.net/im-13668?width=1260&aspect_ratio=1.5
- rdiddly 8y agoA stampede is singular, so a stampede of meatless products overruns meat cases. Consider: Several eggs feel heavy. A box of eggs feels heavy. Syntax error. Edit after downvotes: English grammar is absolutely appropriate to talk about in a forum of people who learn and use languages for a living, especially when the offender is a publication of supposedly professional writers that indicates said professionalism unequivocally by use of a paywall.
- scythe 8y ago"A stampede" I get the cattle-based pun, but this is oversold. At the store I see a 200 foot display case with the large majority devoted to beef, pork and chicken and the fake meat over to one side, past the lamb/veal/"etc", taking up no more than 10% of the display case. Customers aren't stupid, and stores aren't either. We want meat; they know how to sell it to us.
- asciimo 8y agoHere's a video of Adam Savage trying the Impossible Burger prepared by the same chef in the WSJ video, Traci Des Jardins: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TF9bf9uKQQk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TF9bf9uKQQk Spoiler: he liked it.
- cdibona 8y agoWhen prepared well (I had the same burger from the same chef) the impossible burger is pretty burger like, though...more fibrous/long grained. When cooked anything above 'medium rare' they're no better or worse than any veggie patty.
- dmritard96 8y agoHave my doubts that this is as much a real issue as it is people upset over change. When I buy 'beefless beef crumbles', I'm not confused. I'd be willing to bet the number of people that are actually confused rounds to zero. As much as I love the idea of veggie based meat parity, its still not there so even if someone was confused once (which probably doesn't really happen), they won't be confused the second time. Also, at what point is the label about the content rather than the source? If I make an impossible burger thats indistinguishable from an animal product, does it matter that it came from plants? What if I clone cells from meat tissue into steaks? Is that meat? It still puts these guys out of business... Change hurts, but pretending this is a naming issue is just posturing by an industry that uses tons of land for grazing, for growing (multiple states in the midwest dedicated to corn for feed..., and has been shown to treat animals horribly. Why not just say 'what are we going to do' instead of some straw man about semantics and marketplace confusion that doesn't really hold water.
- frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago>When I buy 'beefless beef crumbles', I'm not confused. You don't think someone may buy this product believing that it's actually beef? It seems pretty easy to make that mistake to me. Besides if they described themselves as 'beefless beef crumbles' instead of 'beef crumbles beefy' it probably wouldn't be an issue. https://store.veganessentials.com/beyond-beef-crumbles-by-beyond-meat-p4226.aspx https://store.veganessentials.com/beyond-beef-crumbles-by-be... >If I make an impossible burger thats indistinguishable from an animal product, does it matter that it came from plants? If I make a chicken patty from a caged chicken that's indistinguishable from organic, free-range chickens, does it matter that it came from a cage? Can I sell it as 'organic, free range chicken patties'? Of course it matters. Consumers have a fundamental right to know what it is that they're buying. >Change hurts, but pretending this is a naming issue is just posturing by an industry that uses tons of land for grazing I'm not going to defend meat industry practices but pretending like this isn't about actual false advertising is wrong. Look at these products. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Beyond-Meat-Beast-Burger/137284038 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Beyond-Meat-Beast-Burger/13728403... https://www.walmart.com/ip/Beyond-Meat-Chicken-Grilled-Strip/119191370 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Beyond-Meat-Chicken-Grilled-Strip... These are being placed directly next to meat (you know, the animal flesh kind). This most definitely is an issue of false advertising.
- toomanybeersies 8y agoI'm not a vegetarian, but recently I've actually started eating these vegetarian burger patties that my local supermarket sells. They're made from beetroot, beans, and other vegetables. They don't really pretend to be meat, you definitely know you're eating a vege patty. I've actually discovered I prefer them to normal burger patties, they're cheaper too. I've never been big on mince/ground meat though, I've never really seen the point. I'm definitely not a fan of those fake meat products like quorn. They fall into some kind of uncanny valley [1] for food. They are like an inferior, more expensive version of meat. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- scruple 8y ago> I've never really seen the point. Historically it was so that the more unsavory cuts or pieces (think the brain, organs, intestine, etc...) and the smaller scraps and pieces of meat could be used. It's not all hamburgers. Meat loaf, steak tartare, meatballs, hashes, sausages, soups, etc... There's a number of other, non-hamburger, ways to eat ground meat that is different, unique, and interesting (from a culinary perspective, anyway).
- lhorie 8y agoAt the cafeteria at work, on burger days, meat and veggie patties are side-by-side, and it's easy to taste the contrast between them. I find it interesting that the meat burgers are these dry tasteless umami blobs presumably to try to conform to the "low-fat! low sodium!" narrative of how traditional food should be in order to be "healthy", but the veggie ones are so packed with seasoning that I question whether they are in fact healthy. I often end up getting one of each to balance things out.
- jongold 8y agoReminds me of The Butcher's Son in Berkeley - a completely vegan deli, with menu items advertised as if they were meat. I eat meat but it's one of my favorite spots in the Bay - along with the Impossible Burger finding it's way into restaurants I'm excited for more amazing vegan options so we can wean ourselves off meat. http://www.thebutchersveganson.com http://www.thebutchersveganson.com