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If true, that's both sad and stupid. I've learned so much from my more senior engineers 10-20-30yrs older than me; everything from the "craft" of writing softwa

If true, that's both sad and stupid. I've learned so much from my more senior engineers 10-20-30yrs older than me; everything from the "craft" of writing software, to better ways of debugging, to more practical software engineering methods, hell to how to deal with the business side. I can't imagine anyone with any real knowledge would can them. The only valid reason to can older engineers is to reduce labor costs by both getting higher paid employees off the books and keep around the 23yr olds who will work 60hrs a week.

giancarlostoro 8y ago
Keeping the juniors might not always be the best. You might find out just how much hand holding they got from seniors and reap the "benefits" then.
- api 8y ago
  Something very similar happens when companies outsource to lower skilled much cheaper overseas engineers. I'm not aware of a single example of that where the company hasn't lost ground as a result. But hey it looks good on a spreadsheet.
  - martinald 8y ago
    On the converse side I think there are dozens of startups who've made awesome products using remote developers which wouldn't have been able to get started/got to MVP paying SF engineering salaries.
    - aNoob7000 8y ago
      That's fine for a startup when everything is being built from the ground up. A company that's been around for 20,30,40+ years the old folks have a lot of domain knowledge that has been built up that no amount of documentation and technical savvy is going to overcome.
- Alex3917 8y ago
  > Keeping the juniors might not always be the best. The real issue is that the government isn't putting CEOs in prison for creating software with security issues, so companies are able to reduce their expenses by shifting the costs of bad software onto the general public.
  - jpadkins 8y ago
    do you really want to live in a world where founders can be put in jail for writing insecure code?
    - Alex3917 8y ago
      Yes. People can go to prison for malpractice in other areas, like medicine or civil engineering, why should software development be any different?
      - SamReidHughes 8y ago
        Because mind your own business, that's why. Or do you want to force the software industry overseas?
        sir_kin 8y ago
        I'd rather people be held accountable for what they create, especially when it involves me, my stuff, or my data. I'd rather firms like Equifax be regulated into the ground than get a free pass due to scaremongering. (coincidentally, Equifax is in an industry that will NEVER be forced overseas.)
        SamReidHughes 8y ago
        All you want is a scapegoat for your bloodlust.
      - arbie 8y ago
        Software comes with an EULA typically indemnifying the creator from any negative effects of using the software.
headmelted 8y ago
It's still not right, but if the cuts were targeted based on age I do wonder how much it would really be to do with salary/overtime versus protecting their position over the long term. I'd expect for a tech company in Intel's position they'd be more concerned about the brain drain caused by a retiring workforce over the next 10-15 years, especially if many of those cuts would be expected to land at a resurgent AMD in the near term.
wastedhours 8y ago
I'd be interested to see how the break down of technical vs managerial is in those layoffs - could it be that older workers have been "promoted" out of technical roles into business roles that are easier to cull?
Waterluvian 8y ago
I've very much experienced both sides of it. Older engineers who have so much valuable wisdom, and older engineers who are stuck in tech 10 years ago, getting pretty upset about why we are bothering to use ES6 features at all. I'd hate to lose the former.
- jesseryoung 8y ago
  Agreed, I've had mentors who were decades my senior that provided me both with engineering advice as well as solid professional advice. Unfortunately, I've worked with plenty more individuals in the previous category than the former. Maybe it's got something to do with my industry (medical) but it seems like a lot of the senior engineers in this field have just lost motivation or have moved their focus elsewhere. Knowledge and experience only get you so far, it's useless if you can't (or won't) do anything with it.
  - SOLAR_FIELDS 8y ago
    Hopefully it's easy to tell. I once interviewed a guy from a very large computer manufacturer with 12 years of "software development" experience who couldn't write a single line of code when prompted.
    - Waterluvian 8y ago
      I badly want to spend a single summer at a company where you can gain experience as a developer without actually knowing anything. I bet it's a bloated bureaucracy. I want to understand that.

giancarlostoro 8y ago

Keeping the juniors might not always be the best. You might find out just how much hand holding they got from seniors and reap the "benefits" then.

api 8y ago
Something very similar happens when companies outsource to lower skilled much cheaper overseas engineers. I'm not aware of a single example of that where the company hasn't lost ground as a result. But hey it looks good on a spreadsheet.
- martinald 8y ago
  On the converse side I think there are dozens of startups who've made awesome products using remote developers which wouldn't have been able to get started/got to MVP paying SF engineering salaries.
  - aNoob7000 8y ago
    That's fine for a startup when everything is being built from the ground up. A company that's been around for 20,30,40+ years the old folks have a lot of domain knowledge that has been built up that no amount of documentation and technical savvy is going to overcome.
Alex3917 8y ago
> Keeping the juniors might not always be the best. The real issue is that the government isn't putting CEOs in prison for creating software with security issues, so companies are able to reduce their expenses by shifting the costs of bad software onto the general public.
- jpadkins 8y ago
  do you really want to live in a world where founders can be put in jail for writing insecure code?
  - Alex3917 8y ago
    Yes. People can go to prison for malpractice in other areas, like medicine or civil engineering, why should software development be any different?
    - SamReidHughes 8y ago
      Because mind your own business, that's why. Or do you want to force the software industry overseas?
      - sir_kin 8y ago
        I'd rather people be held accountable for what they create, especially when it involves me, my stuff, or my data. I'd rather firms like Equifax be regulated into the ground than get a free pass due to scaremongering. (coincidentally, Equifax is in an industry that will NEVER be forced overseas.)
        SamReidHughes 8y ago
        All you want is a scapegoat for your bloodlust.
    - arbie 8y ago
      Software comes with an EULA typically indemnifying the creator from any negative effects of using the software.

headmelted 8y ago

It's still not right, but if the cuts were targeted based on age I do wonder how much it would really be to do with salary/overtime versus protecting their position over the long term. I'd expect for a tech company in Intel's position they'd be more concerned about the brain drain caused by a retiring workforce over the next 10-15 years, especially if many of those cuts would be expected to land at a resurgent AMD in the near term.

wastedhours 8y ago

I'd be interested to see how the break down of technical vs managerial is in those layoffs - could it be that older workers have been "promoted" out of technical roles into business roles that are easier to cull?

Waterluvian 8y ago

I've very much experienced both sides of it. Older engineers who have so much valuable wisdom, and older engineers who are stuck in tech 10 years ago, getting pretty upset about why we are bothering to use ES6 features at all. I'd hate to lose the former.

jesseryoung 8y ago
Agreed, I've had mentors who were decades my senior that provided me both with engineering advice as well as solid professional advice. Unfortunately, I've worked with plenty more individuals in the previous category than the former. Maybe it's got something to do with my industry (medical) but it seems like a lot of the senior engineers in this field have just lost motivation or have moved their focus elsewhere. Knowledge and experience only get you so far, it's useless if you can't (or won't) do anything with it.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 8y ago
  Hopefully it's easy to tell. I once interviewed a guy from a very large computer manufacturer with 12 years of "software development" experience who couldn't write a single line of code when prompted.
  - Waterluvian 8y ago
    I badly want to spend a single summer at a company where you can gain experience as a developer without actually knowing anything. I bet it's a bloated bureaucracy. I want to understand that.