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What is day one of ARM-based MacBook ownership going to be like for a software developer? Do we open Terminal and go to `brew install` a bunch of development t

What is day one of ARM-based MacBook ownership going to be like for a software developer? Do we open Terminal and go to `brew install` a bunch of development tools... and then it hits us... this machine is cool and all, but half the stuff we need to get work done does not build or run on arm64?

terhechte 8y ago
I may not be a device for Software Developers on day one. I guess Xcode will obviously work, and the default tools such as Python or Ruby. But for everything else it will take porting time, and that's fine because the target market will be casual users looking for a sub-799 Macbook.
solarkraft 8y ago
Apple has done this before for PowerPC software on Intel hardware and Microsoft is doing it right now for Intel software on ARM hardware: Compatibility modes (or how you'd call it - they enable the software to run without modification, albeit at lowered performance).
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 8y ago
  When Apple did the PowerPC -> Intel switch, they were going to a higher performing CPU, so the efficiency loss in having to emulate was somewhat offset by the higher performance processor. In this case, they will most likely be taking a step down in performance, compounding the loss of efficiency in having to emulate.
  - solarkraft 8y ago
    Yet Apple has enough ecosystem power to force most developers to switch quickly. And if they don't the worst customer complaint will be the app running slowly. But I'd expect them to release a tool chain months before they start selling an ARM mac.
    - jwilliams 8y ago
      Plus, the Mac App Store makes this a lot easier this time round. Apple will have a big "optimized for Air" sticker on the App. 99% of common apps will switch in no time.
- mattl 8y ago
  Also a reminder that NeXT had this years ago. It’s just nice to see all this stuff coming back.
AaronFriel 8y ago
Brew being a set of ports as opposed to binary compatible is going to hurt Apple developers here. To compare, at Build 2018 I played with Windows Subsystem for Linux on an ARM64 Windows laptop. WSL being binary compatible meant all of the Ubuntu (or Debian, or …) packages for ARM64 were available.
- tzahola 8y ago
  What do you mean by “ports”? Homebrew builds stuff from source, like you always do on Unices.
  - AaronFriel 8y ago
    Ports as in they are not using upstream binaries. I think I'm using the term ports correctly - like FreeBSD ports? That is, they may use the upstream source code (or not - I doubt that's true of all Homebrew packages) but they are not the native packages from an upstream *nix distribution. I may have also spoken imprecisely. Ultimately what I mean is this: I can copy a binary or a package compiled for Ubuntu, Debian, RHEL, what-have-you, targeting the Linux kernel, and I can run or install that in Windows Subsystem for Linux as is. Here is the sources.list from Ubuntu 18.04 on Windows, with comments removed: deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ bionic main restricted deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ bionic-updates main restricted deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ bionic universe deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ bionic-updates universe deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ bionic multiverse deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ bionic-updates multiverse deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ bionic-backports main restricted universe multiverse deb http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ bionic-security main restricted deb http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ bionic-security universe deb http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ bionic-security multiverse No special sauce. Just Ubuntu packages.
JetSpiegel 8y ago
What tools don't work on ARM? If you install Raspbian or ArchLinux ARM all the usual tools are available.
mikemcquaid 8y ago
Homebrew lead maintainer here: if Apple release officially supported ARM hardware with Xcode: we will be trying to make Homebrew work well on it as soon as possible.
- tracker1 8y ago
  Cool news... aside, thank you for all your work on Homebrew, it cannot be understated how much you've helped so many developers and ops people.
  - jam 8y ago
    Pretty sure you managed to understate it.
danpalmer 8y ago
Surely homebrew will just extend to support building for ARM. For some packages that will “just work”, others will require some upgrades, but that’s already the case for OS upgrades now. Homebrew operate build servers to keep cached builds, I’m sure they can do the same for both ARM and x86. It would be a big job, but much of the software on Homebrew is already ARM compatible, and I think there’s a clear path to supporting that, which should make the migration relatively seamless for most developers I’d imagine. It won’t be without issue, but I don’t think it will hurt macOS as a development OS much in the long run.
tzahola 8y ago
Build stuff from source? What’s the issue with that?
tracker1 8y ago
I think the dev tooling will migrate fine... I think the creative tools for video editing/encoding etc will suffer to a level that cannot really be understated. Maybe Adobe will finally take Linux seriously if that happens.

terhechte 8y ago

I may not be a device for Software Developers on day one. I guess Xcode will obviously work, and the default tools such as Python or Ruby. But for everything else it will take porting time, and that's fine because the target market will be casual users looking for a sub-799 Macbook.

solarkraft 8y ago

Apple has done this before for PowerPC software on Intel hardware and Microsoft is doing it right now for Intel software on ARM hardware: Compatibility modes (or how you'd call it - they enable the software to run without modification, albeit at lowered performance).

RcouF1uZ4gsC 8y ago
When Apple did the PowerPC -> Intel switch, they were going to a higher performing CPU, so the efficiency loss in having to emulate was somewhat offset by the higher performance processor. In this case, they will most likely be taking a step down in performance, compounding the loss of efficiency in having to emulate.
- solarkraft 8y ago
  Yet Apple has enough ecosystem power to force most developers to switch quickly. And if they don't the worst customer complaint will be the app running slowly. But I'd expect them to release a tool chain months before they start selling an ARM mac.
  - jwilliams 8y ago
    Plus, the Mac App Store makes this a lot easier this time round. Apple will have a big "optimized for Air" sticker on the App. 99% of common apps will switch in no time.
mattl 8y ago
Also a reminder that NeXT had this years ago. It’s just nice to see all this stuff coming back.

AaronFriel 8y ago

Brew being a set of ports as opposed to binary compatible is going to hurt Apple developers here. To compare, at Build 2018 I played with Windows Subsystem for Linux on an ARM64 Windows laptop. WSL being binary compatible meant all of the Ubuntu (or Debian, or …) packages for ARM64 were available.

tzahola 8y ago
What do you mean by “ports”? Homebrew builds stuff from source, like you always do on Unices.
- AaronFriel 8y ago
  Ports as in they are not using upstream binaries. I think I'm using the term ports correctly - like FreeBSD ports? That is, they may use the upstream source code (or not - I doubt that's true of all Homebrew packages) but they are not the native packages from an upstream *nix distribution. I may have also spoken imprecisely. Ultimately what I mean is this: I can copy a binary or a package compiled for Ubuntu, Debian, RHEL, what-have-you, targeting the Linux kernel, and I can run or install that in Windows Subsystem for Linux as is. Here is the sources.list from Ubuntu 18.04 on Windows, with comments removed: deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ bionic main restricted deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ bionic-updates main restricted deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ bionic universe deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ bionic-updates universe deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ bionic multiverse deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ bionic-updates multiverse deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ bionic-backports main restricted universe multiverse deb http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ bionic-security main restricted deb http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ bionic-security universe deb http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ bionic-security multiverse No special sauce. Just Ubuntu packages.

JetSpiegel 8y ago

What tools don't work on ARM? If you install Raspbian or ArchLinux ARM all the usual tools are available.

mikemcquaid 8y ago

Homebrew lead maintainer here: if Apple release officially supported ARM hardware with Xcode: we will be trying to make Homebrew work well on it as soon as possible.

tracker1 8y ago
Cool news... aside, thank you for all your work on Homebrew, it cannot be understated how much you've helped so many developers and ops people.
- jam 8y ago
  Pretty sure you managed to understate it.

danpalmer 8y ago

Surely homebrew will just extend to support building for ARM. For some packages that will “just work”, others will require some upgrades, but that’s already the case for OS upgrades now. Homebrew operate build servers to keep cached builds, I’m sure they can do the same for both ARM and x86. It would be a big job, but much of the software on Homebrew is already ARM compatible, and I think there’s a clear path to supporting that, which should make the migration relatively seamless for most developers I’d imagine. It won’t be without issue, but I don’t think it will hurt macOS as a development OS much in the long run.

tzahola 8y ago

Build stuff from source? What’s the issue with that?

tracker1 8y ago

I think the dev tooling will migrate fine... I think the creative tools for video editing/encoding etc will suffer to a level that cannot really be understated. Maybe Adobe will finally take Linux seriously if that happens.