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The thing that stands out to me here is that Tesla has wasted a ton of time and money building up competency in commodity features. No consumer considers Tesla

The thing that stands out to me here is that Tesla has wasted a ton of time and money building up competency in commodity features. No consumer considers Tesla Seats to be the differentiating factor. Why on earth didn't Tesla just decide to use a more conventional seat design and outsource the work to a Seat supplier like all other car manufacturers. Kind of reminds me of Software Engineers that always want to roll their own implementation of everything... They get less done and are overconfident in their own abilities.

adventured 8y ago
It's because Musk is a micro-manager that is easily frustrated by flaws in external solutions and more tolerant of even greater flaws internally. It's why he puts his nose into everything his companies do (eg in the article it mentions he had a role in designing the extruded aluminum base of the Model X seat, which is absurd).
- kchhina 8y ago
  I don’t think it is absurd. I think it shows he wants to know what goes into his cars and rockets. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had executives above me who had never even seen the products they were representing. I admire it when an executive can roll up their sleeves and get into it without being disruptive.
kjksf 8y ago
One possibility: that mindset of mediocrity doesn't produce excellence. Apple, for example, is famous for caring about things that rationally they shouldn't care, like the insides of their computers. And since history is written by victors and we apply post factum rationalization, no one says that Apple is wrong to care about details that are arguably irrelevant to the success. The same will happen with Tesla. If Tesla is successful then Musk will be a genius with uncompromising standard for quality. If Tesla will fail then Musk will be an idiot whose hubris, micro-management and inability to prioritize doomed the company. And reality is that neither you or me have enough information to judge this decision one way or another. You weren't there and the it was probably more complicated that what you assume based on zero data. According to reports Tesla started doing seats in-house when a contractor that was supposedly an experienced seat maker failed to produce Model X seats which contributed to 18 month delay in delivering the car.
- FireBeyond 8y ago
  > One possibility: that mindset of mediocrity doesn't produce excellence. > Apple, for example, is famous for caring about things that rationally they shouldn't care, like the insides of their computers. Except, by all accounts and opinions, there's a fair degree of interior "mediocrity". Whilst the screen is all flashy and showy, the dash, console are pretty "average". And by average I mean, creaking, flimsy-ish, plastic parts. Even on a $100,000+ Model S. My Altima has a comparable dash to the Model S. My Audi S class? Hugely better, objectively and subjectively.
- Pywarrior 8y ago
  A key elements of successful outsourcing are defining quality standards and remediation processes in the case the supplier quality changes and fails to meet those standards. Outsourcing can often and if managed well likely lead to higher quality components. A successful automotive supply chain is deeply rooted in the division and specialization of labor in the supply chain. Partnering with Recaro is one option that would have resulted in high quality seats built to OEM spec, it would have also brought a lot of positive media, it would have allowed cross marketing between the companies, it would have allowed Tesla purchasing executives and engineers to collaborate with experts in seat engineering and manufacturing. They could have also shared all the warranty costs with Recaro or whatever supplier they chose. Using suppliers does not automatically mean lower quality. My bet is on internal Tesla disorganization and or low standards that caused the supplier relationship to fail. Recaro for reference: https://en.recaro.com/business-areas/automotive-seating.html https://en.recaro.com/business-areas/automotive-seating.html
- hndamien 8y ago
  I believe this is also to do with political power (as is much of this play). The car dealship issue/ selling direct, was about power. The reasons the seats were delayed was because they also contract with other car companies - so, priorities. This political mechanism applies to ever aspect of the car. If you build it all yourself, your competitors have 0 power over what you do.
cepth 8y ago
There is probably a cost consideration here. Every additional layer of supplier means more and more margin goes to them. I’d also imagine that if Tesla used the seat suppliers that the rest of the industry does, they’d get lower priority in terms of access to seat designers, engineers etc. A company doing 200k vehicles a year in sales, split across 3 models, doesn’t really have much buying/bargaining power. When Musk visited Khan Academy for an interview some years ago, he mentioned that their USB cord supplier had shipped over defective cables, so they went to Fry’s to buy cables as a stopgap. I’d assume that kind of supply chain disruption is what they’re trying to avoid, for the more essential parts.
rgrove 8y ago
For what it's worth, the seats in my Model 3 are the most comfortable car seats I think I've ever sat on. The seats didn't really influence my decision to purchase, but they've sure influenced my satisfaction with the car.
- jacobolus 8y ago
  I have not tried Tesla seats, but in general car seats, airplane seats, and most office chairs are absolutely horrible, not designed with any regard for human anatomy. If an auto maker produced better shaped seats, that could make a more significant difference to the experience of riding in the car than many other possible features.
  - NickNameNick 8y ago
    I'm 6'7". Car seats have influenced my decision to purchase before, and will again. Right now, I drive a Subaru, and not the (cheaper) Ford or Mazda equivalents that I was considering because the Subaru seat is that much better. I sat in each car in a tesla showroom a few weeks ago, and was pleasantly surprised by the seats, Although the driving position in the model 3 isn't great for me. - I'm unlikely to be able to see traffic lights. No such issue in the model X with it's wrap-over windscreen, but that's out of my price range.
    - Someone1234 8y ago
      I can second Subaru being great for tall people. When I was shopping for our current vehicle, we excluded 50% of the list after trying the driver's seat even with adjustment, they aren't designed for tall people. For example the Nissan Rogue is a fantastic vehicle by all accounts (and the trunk organizer I still miss), but we skipped on it due to the seat comfort.
greglindahl 8y ago
The pillar seats in Model X were considered by Tesla to be a killer feature at launch. Lots of people Monday-morning quarterbacked Model S's disappearing door handles, and now Porsche is putting them on Mission E.
pbreit 8y ago
You do realize that Tesla's $55b valuation is the result of doing the opposite of what you suggest?
pentae 8y ago
I'm guessing you missed this in the Article: But relying on suppliers got Tesla into trouble with the Model X, when its engineers designed an extremely difficult-to-make “monopost” seat and an impossible-to-hit timeline. Problems with suppliers set production back by months, and Musk decided he wasn’t going to put up with it again.
- zubiaur 8y ago
  I’ve worked with for a Tesla supplier and can attest that they do ask for some exotic designs/stuff. What made my company a good partner is that it was relatevely small and technologically advanced, we could cope with their engineering requests and changes and collaborated on R&D. When they went for the model 3 they used a bigger OEM supplier. We heard constant complaints about lack of flexibility. They iterate faster than other manufacturers. They are... different.

adventured 8y ago

It's because Musk is a micro-manager that is easily frustrated by flaws in external solutions and more tolerant of even greater flaws internally. It's why he puts his nose into everything his companies do (eg in the article it mentions he had a role in designing the extruded aluminum base of the Model X seat, which is absurd).

kchhina 8y ago
I don’t think it is absurd. I think it shows he wants to know what goes into his cars and rockets. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had executives above me who had never even seen the products they were representing. I admire it when an executive can roll up their sleeves and get into it without being disruptive.

kjksf 8y ago

One possibility: that mindset of mediocrity doesn't produce excellence. Apple, for example, is famous for caring about things that rationally they shouldn't care, like the insides of their computers. And since history is written by victors and we apply post factum rationalization, no one says that Apple is wrong to care about details that are arguably irrelevant to the success. The same will happen with Tesla. If Tesla is successful then Musk will be a genius with uncompromising standard for quality. If Tesla will fail then Musk will be an idiot whose hubris, micro-management and inability to prioritize doomed the company. And reality is that neither you or me have enough information to judge this decision one way or another. You weren't there and the it was probably more complicated that what you assume based on zero data. According to reports Tesla started doing seats in-house when a contractor that was supposedly an experienced seat maker failed to produce Model X seats which contributed to 18 month delay in delivering the car.

FireBeyond 8y ago
> One possibility: that mindset of mediocrity doesn't produce excellence. > Apple, for example, is famous for caring about things that rationally they shouldn't care, like the insides of their computers. Except, by all accounts and opinions, there's a fair degree of interior "mediocrity". Whilst the screen is all flashy and showy, the dash, console are pretty "average". And by average I mean, creaking, flimsy-ish, plastic parts. Even on a $100,000+ Model S. My Altima has a comparable dash to the Model S. My Audi S class? Hugely better, objectively and subjectively.
Pywarrior 8y ago
A key elements of successful outsourcing are defining quality standards and remediation processes in the case the supplier quality changes and fails to meet those standards. Outsourcing can often and if managed well likely lead to higher quality components. A successful automotive supply chain is deeply rooted in the division and specialization of labor in the supply chain. Partnering with Recaro is one option that would have resulted in high quality seats built to OEM spec, it would have also brought a lot of positive media, it would have allowed cross marketing between the companies, it would have allowed Tesla purchasing executives and engineers to collaborate with experts in seat engineering and manufacturing. They could have also shared all the warranty costs with Recaro or whatever supplier they chose. Using suppliers does not automatically mean lower quality. My bet is on internal Tesla disorganization and or low standards that caused the supplier relationship to fail. Recaro for reference: https://en.recaro.com/business-areas/automotive-seating.html https://en.recaro.com/business-areas/automotive-seating.html
hndamien 8y ago
I believe this is also to do with political power (as is much of this play). The car dealship issue/ selling direct, was about power. The reasons the seats were delayed was because they also contract with other car companies - so, priorities. This political mechanism applies to ever aspect of the car. If you build it all yourself, your competitors have 0 power over what you do.

cepth 8y ago

There is probably a cost consideration here. Every additional layer of supplier means more and more margin goes to them. I’d also imagine that if Tesla used the seat suppliers that the rest of the industry does, they’d get lower priority in terms of access to seat designers, engineers etc. A company doing 200k vehicles a year in sales, split across 3 models, doesn’t really have much buying/bargaining power. When Musk visited Khan Academy for an interview some years ago, he mentioned that their USB cord supplier had shipped over defective cables, so they went to Fry’s to buy cables as a stopgap. I’d assume that kind of supply chain disruption is what they’re trying to avoid, for the more essential parts.

rgrove 8y ago

For what it's worth, the seats in my Model 3 are the most comfortable car seats I think I've ever sat on. The seats didn't really influence my decision to purchase, but they've sure influenced my satisfaction with the car.

jacobolus 8y ago
I have not tried Tesla seats, but in general car seats, airplane seats, and most office chairs are absolutely horrible, not designed with any regard for human anatomy. If an auto maker produced better shaped seats, that could make a more significant difference to the experience of riding in the car than many other possible features.
- NickNameNick 8y ago
  I'm 6'7". Car seats have influenced my decision to purchase before, and will again. Right now, I drive a Subaru, and not the (cheaper) Ford or Mazda equivalents that I was considering because the Subaru seat is that much better. I sat in each car in a tesla showroom a few weeks ago, and was pleasantly surprised by the seats, Although the driving position in the model 3 isn't great for me. - I'm unlikely to be able to see traffic lights. No such issue in the model X with it's wrap-over windscreen, but that's out of my price range.
  - Someone1234 8y ago
    I can second Subaru being great for tall people. When I was shopping for our current vehicle, we excluded 50% of the list after trying the driver's seat even with adjustment, they aren't designed for tall people. For example the Nissan Rogue is a fantastic vehicle by all accounts (and the trunk organizer I still miss), but we skipped on it due to the seat comfort.

greglindahl 8y ago

The pillar seats in Model X were considered by Tesla to be a killer feature at launch. Lots of people Monday-morning quarterbacked Model S's disappearing door handles, and now Porsche is putting them on Mission E.

pbreit 8y ago

You do realize that Tesla's $55b valuation is the result of doing the opposite of what you suggest?

pentae 8y ago

I'm guessing you missed this in the Article: But relying on suppliers got Tesla into trouble with the Model X, when its engineers designed an extremely difficult-to-make “monopost” seat and an impossible-to-hit timeline. Problems with suppliers set production back by months, and Musk decided he wasn’t going to put up with it again.

zubiaur 8y ago
I’ve worked with for a Tesla supplier and can attest that they do ask for some exotic designs/stuff. What made my company a good partner is that it was relatevely small and technologically advanced, we could cope with their engineering requests and changes and collaborated on R&D. When they went for the model 3 they used a bigger OEM supplier. We heard constant complaints about lack of flexibility. They iterate faster than other manufacturers. They are... different.